38 replies to this topic

[Shot Your Bolt]

Recently I've been going through my entire Bond collection since becoming more interested in Bond again with all the new QoS info. But sometimes, I don't know what to think.

I've been watching several Connery films recently, and although he will always be the best bond to me, I find myself being a bit bored by them. YOLT was as hollow as the volcano and as shallow as its lake, and despite its prettiness(the sets, the cinematography, etc) I felt pretty weird after watching it. I was thinking "I guess I should have been entertaining, but the action wasn't good enough throughout for such an empty experience". I felt like Connery did in the movie, just looking around wishing to be somewhere else.

Then I watched FRWL. The acting is great from pretty much everyone. Maybe Connery's best performance. That guy who was helping Bond made all his lines TWICE as good as they should be. Red Grant was a superb bad guy. SPECTRE Island is made of win. Almost all the scenes on the train are great, and the entire confrontation between Grant and Bond that the movie was building up to was worth the wait...and yet I still can't see myself coming back to it anytime soon. I felt it was slow and again kinda boring. I can tell its very intelligently written, but I wasn't that big of a fan of it I guess. Maybe it'll grow on me.

Next I watched TB. WTF @ these films all seeming so long. This one just seemed to go on forever. Again, I respect the underwater scenes for their choreography, but now they're no fun to watch It has some really good moments here and there, like when Fiona confronts Bond about his exploits of women and how she refused to give into him. That was brilliant. The script is pretty sharp too. But while I was fast forwarding the underwater battle scene trying to get through the film, something donned on me: I really love the fantastical elements of Bond. The death chairs, the shark pool, the doomsday plots, sexy women at every turn.

Some people recommend I watch some of Roger Moore's films, which were more light-hearted, so I picked the one they recommended the most, The Spy Who Loved Me. I LOVED it. Moore's no Connery, but he didn't have to be. He was Roger Moore, and even in danger he was able to crack a joke. He had some great one-liners throughout(*stares at username*). I still can't help but smile when I hear "Women drivers" and "All those feathers and he still couldn't fly." The action scenes are truly well-done, from the spectacular ski scene(with the coolest stunt EVER @ the end) to the big army fight in the end(which complete destroys the one in YOLT in scale and it actually makes sense in the context of the story). Jaws is a terrific henchmen who just won't die. Bach plays a fine Bond girl who is actually a competent partner for 007(Halle Berry, take notes). I would have perfer to see Blofeld instead of Blofeld Jr. here, but he does a decent job. He has a couple of good lines and again, shark pools make everything better. The theme may truly be my favorite next to Paul McCartney/Wings, although I could have done without that corny version in the credits. It THE Bond movie IMO.

So then I saw Casino Royale again for the first time since early 2007...and I loved it too. I don't have to preach to you guys why the film is so good, you know by now. The only thing I don't like was that it definitely FEELS like the longest Bond movie(even though I swear to you From Russia With Love/Thunderball is longer damnit >_<), and I don't care for the character of Le Cheieffe or whatever he name was, he sucked. The actor was fine, but the character always came across as an angry little boy who got embarrassed on multiple occasions(a similar problem I had with Largo, but thats a topic for another day). Besides that...pure awesomeness.

Next was Die Another Day, which I heard was the worst ****ing Bond movie EVER...but I was really entertained. I'll freely admit, I am fan of big dumb action movies, and there was plenty of that in this one. That not to say I don't watch the Academy Award-worthy films, but again the fantastical elements always get me with Bond. Fancy gadgets, fast cars, beautiful women, evil villains, world domination plots, evil fortress. yeah, its pretty stupid, but I don't see the whole "Batman & Robin" comparisons with Casino Royale = Batman Begins(although CR/BB are both similar in content and quality and both equally awesome films). B&R sucked, and while the last half of DAD can get pretty stupid even for me(That CGI parasurfing has GOT to be removed in future DVD releases) I think its second only to Goldeneye in the Bronsnan era, and I rather watch it again instead of TB/YOLT.

Is it wrong to love crazy over-the-type adventures like DAD but also to love serious character-driven stories like CR? And to not care for most of the Connery films and yet still consider him to be the best Bond?

I'm confused :/

[DamnCoffee]

Not really. Bond is Bond, I love the hard edged Casino Royale and a fun, thrilling The Spy Who Loved Me. To like both Die Another Day and Casino Royale doesn't make you any less of a fan, it's nice that you can see the goodness in both.

[Athena007]

I think when you are a "true" fan of a series you can enjoy even the worst episodes/films cause you're able to see the good and bad in each film... even the great ones have moments for cringing. And the worst ones have great lines. (just a generic example) Anywho... Bond is Bond in different "incarnations" and there's nothing wrong with liking or disliking films that go against the general consensus of fandom.

[Judo chop]

You sound like a healthy fan to me. Let me know what you think of TWINE and I’ll tell you if you’re the real deal.

[Fiona Volpe lover]

I agree. I enjoy all the Bond films although obviously I have my favourites and ones I don't like quite so much. I'm one of the few of here who really likes Die Another Day, I haven't quite got to reviewing that one yet but I think it's Brosnan's best.

I'm often saying that films like Moonraker and Die Another Day have as much right to exist as From Russia With Love and Casino Royale. They might be alot further away from Ian Fleming, but bearing mind these are films and not books I don't think that can be taken as a criticism. I'm a Bond fan and I enjoy both extremes of Bond films.

Part of the fun of seeing films in a formulaic series like Bond is seeing how the formula is going to be varied, what's going to be empathised, will they go with the humour, or maybe delve deeper into characterisation, will it be quite realistic or fantastical, etc....My two favourite Bond films are On Her Majesty's Secret Service and You Only Live Twice and they're pretty different yet are still easily identifiable as being two films in the same serie.

I think if all the Bond films handled things the same way from film to film many people including probably me would have got bored with the series by now.

[Loomis]

Well, if it's wrong to love both CASINO ROYALE and DIE ANOTHER DAY I don't want to be right.

[Mr. Blofeld]

How can it be wrong... when it feels so right?

[jaguar007]

As you said it "I am fan of big dumb action movies"

Seriously, I like all the Bond movies and (some more than others). I watched DAD last week with my 12 year old nephew (boy, some of the lines were badly delivered)and it was fun to watch again after a few years since I last saw it. The only thing that really makes me question your sanity is that you found FRWL boring

Have you checked out Goldfinger and On Her Majesty's Secret Service yet?

[Tiin007]

Not really. Bond is Bond, I love the hard edged Casino Royale and a fun, thrilling The Spy Who Loved Me. To like both Die Another Day and Casino Royale doesn't make you any less of a fan, it's nice that you can see the goodness in both.

I think when you are a "true" fan of a series you can enjoy even the worst episodes/films cause you're able to see the good and bad in each film... even the great ones have moments for cringing. And the worst ones have great lines. (just a generic example) Anywho... Bond is Bond in different "incarnations" and there's nothing wrong with liking or disliking films that go against the general consensus of fandom.

Completely agree with both of you. Frankly, even though Casino Royale is my favorite Bond movie (with From Russia With Love and The Living Daylights as close runners-up), I've always loved Die Another Day. Did the film have its issues? Of course! But then again, every entry in the series did. There's no such thing as the "perfect" Bond movie, nor is there any Bond movie which is objectively worse than all the rest. Each one has its ups and downs, and all a real fan has to do is be able to appreciate them for what they are.

[dinovelvet]

Well, CR and DAD represent the opposite ends of the Bond spectrum. One is loud, silly, over-the-top, and often hilarious, and then you've got Die Another Day. Zing! Nah, they're both good fun, but in completely different ways.

[Blonde Bond]

You sound like a healthy fan to me. Let me know what you think of TWINE and I’ll tell you if you’re the real deal.

If this leads to yet another "TWINE is terrible" post, I shall rip my golf trousers.

TWINE is not the worst bond movie ever. It's Brosnan's 'Casino Royale' dang-diggity!

[dee-bee-five]

Of course it's not wrong. No-one has the right to tell you what you may enjoy and what you may not. I would suggest that the consensus is that CR is the better film, but that doesn't mean everyone has to agree with that.

It's all subjective, so disliking a film others love, or vice versa, does not make you or them right or wrong. For instance, I agree with you that Thunderball is dull and dreary, but I disagree with you about You Only Live Twice, which I think is superb. As for TWINE, I know I'm in a minority on CBn in thinking it's an underrated and neglected near-classic (but it's time will come), but who cares? I'm not forcing anyone to watch it and they can't stop me from enjoying it.

So carry on enjoying both films. It's not a sin.

If this leads to yet another "TWINE is terrible" post, I shall rip my golf trousers.

TWINE is not the worst bond movie ever. It's Brosnan's 'Casino Royale'

I quite agree. I'd watch TWINE over Thunderyawn any day .

[BlackFire]

I think that you're indeed a fan because a real fan wouldn't mind if a movie sucked and wether you like it or not, you enjoyed at least something of it, which will make you get interested into it and when you notice, you'll like it even more.

In my case used to hate Craig, but he is Bond, my 'hero' so I decided to watch Casino Royale because I was not going to let a new actor ruin the series for me, and now he is my second favourite Bond, so if you gave a chance to an actor, why not a movie.

[MajorB]

Of course it's not wrong. No-one has the right to tell you what you may enjoy and what you may not. I would suggest that the consensus is that CR is the better film, but that doesn't mean everyone has to agree with that.

It's all subjective, so disliking a film others love, or vice versa, does not make you or them right or wrong.

Hear, hear! It's all too common for people to believe that their personal taste is the only opinion that's legitimate. There's no right or wrong when it comes to what you like or dislike.

Unless you like AVTAK. Then you're an idiot and not a true fan.

...Sorry, TOTALLY kidding, couldn't resist. I admire people who can see the virtue in a wide range of genres and types, and I think there's room in fandom for anyone who likes any of the films for any reason. It'd be pretty dull if we all liked the same things. There are points to admire about any of the films, and if I find fewer of those in, say, LALD and AVTAK, there's going to be someone else out there who feels exactly the opposite.

I too like many things about DAD while acknowledging its flaws. In fact, I find it a very rewatchable film, in part because it's so full of energy and variety. At the same time, CR is at or near the top of my Bond list, for largely different reasons.

'Sall good, I say.

[ComplimentsOfSharky]

Here's the thing...I hated Die Another Day. I remember seeing XXX in the theaters and musing that if DAD played out like it, I'd probably like XXX more since I expected nothing more than mindless action and worse dialogue. Had I not paid the 8 dollars for it, I probably wouldv'e walked out somewhere after ice palace. I did storm out as soon as it ended, mainly because I assumed the franchise was going in a direction I wasn't happy about.

But then something wonderful happened and CR was made. Essentially, even with all of its flaws, DAD didn't spell the disaster for the franchise that at the time, I felt it might. The movie that followed it wasn't DAD II starring Pierce Brosnan, Angelina Jolie, and Tom Cruise with a Halle Berry cameo. It was something much much different and much much better.

So in way, CR made up for all of DADs shortcomings. It made it ok for me to enjoy DAD (or the parts of it that don't involve cyborgs and Halle Berry).

[PrinceKamalKhan]

Is it wrong to love crazy over-the-type adventures like DAD but also to love serious character-driven stories like CR?

I don't think so. But then again, I love Moonraker and You Only Live Twice yet also love The Living Daylights and Casino Royale. Both the OTT type and serious type of Bond films can happily co-exist in my universe.

And to not care for most of the Connery films and yet still consider him to be the best Bond?

You have to remember that in the 1960s, the term "action movie" probably meant something different than it means to the regular movie viewer of today. Especially after the likes of Tomorrow Never Dies and Die Another Day, they might seem "slow." Speaking for myself, I appreciate films from all decades and I appreciate the slower pace of some of these older Bond films. I love luxiriating in the "slowness" of the Terence Young-directed films and how they allow the viewer to take time to revel in the style and feel of a world Ian Fleming knew and a world that no longer exists today.

[Professor Dent]

Nothing wrong with you at all. With 21 official movies on DVD, there are bound to be "good" ones & "bad" ones. To me, the only real difference between the good & the bad is that I rewatch the "bad" ones less than the "good" ones. It's easy to get caught-up beating on Die Another Day but, if you like it, watch it & enjoy it. In my world, there is no amount of people who can tell me that Moonraker is a bad movie - I still enjoy it every time I watch it.

[ImTheMoneypenny]

Nothing wrong with it at all. Some people like chocolate and some like vanilla and many like the chocolate vanilla swirl. With so many films to choose from there is a movie for every sort of Bond fan. I like FRWL and CR almost the same, depends on the day. Though I'm not a lover of the Brosnan films, they're still Bond and because people went and saw them and enjoyed them, we are able to have CR and QoS.

[Athena007]

I quite agree. I'd watch TWINE over Thunderyawn any day .

OMG! That's high-larious! Thunderyawn... heehee. BRAVO! I'm so amused. Anywho, ya that movie is defiantly not high on my list. And I quite enjoy TWINE (minus the obvious mis-cast).

[Colossus]

I don't have a problem with DAD, it really is just a 21st century reinvention of the Moonraker novel in a way. Also i like Brosnan's performance in that one the best, his most assured and confident one.

The movie in a way has another allure to it in that it's the only one Brosnan did commentary on it, it feels warm and fuzzy to watch it while laying back and listening to him chat about it just like the Moore commentaries.

Edited by Colossus, 03 September 2008 - 04:41 AM.

[00Twelve]

Of course it's not wrong, surely no one would be so self-righteous as to seriously think so.

I personally can enjoy them both, but I don't look for the same type of thing when I watch them. DAD is not a movie that reeks of Fleming (no matter how much I wish it were), and I think a fan would drive his or herself into frustration or denial if they tried to view it that way.

CR is such a film, on the other hand, and Fleming followers can shout praises for that all day long.

But both feature the character whose appeal has grown past the literary boundaries, past cinematic boundaries, who has passed into legend. Who doesn't know the name 'James Bond' or the number 007? One thing can be guaranteed by both DAD and CR: James Bond of Her Majesty's Secret Service is guaranteed to thrill. Period.

(You caught me when I was in a DAD-defending mood. Well played.)

[john.steed]

Of course there is nothing wrong with liking two very different versions of Bond. I doubt if the series would have lasted if all the films had the same tone.

[Publius]

Of course not, but I imagine it must be hard. Then again, Casino Royale is just a Brosnan Bond film starring Daniel Craig and partially written by Paul Haggis.

[David Schofield]

There is absolutely nothing wrong in loving CR and DAD.

Both Craig and Brosnan are WORKING at being Bond.

Now liking DAF and AVATK, for example, now there's anothing thing.

[dodge]

It's not only possible, sometimes it's downright healthy, to love a lady big-time...and yet need a tramp. Having said that, it's still wise to avoid tramps afflicted with fleas.

[ChrissBond007]

I'm a Big Bondfan and Die Another Day is my least favourite Bondfilm, but I can enyoy every Bondfilm, I like the first half of DAD actually. Casino Royale is by far better, yes.

DAF, LTK, TND and DAD are Bondfilms I can't enyoy like the other 17, but still as a fan I can enyoy them all.

[Shot Your Bolt]

Thanks for all the replies guys. And for the record I think CR is much better than DAD. I'm not THAT crazy

On that note, I just watched the first few minutes of CR again. I swear, Bond exerts himself more in the first 20 minutes of Casino Royale than he does in the totality of Dr. No, From Russia With Love and Goldfinger.

Edited by Shot Your Bolt, 03 September 2008 - 03:24 PM.

[Aris007]

OK, DAD is the lightest side of Bond. CR exactly the opposite side. I like DAD, too! If you want to have a pleasant evening you won't watch CR! DAD is the movie that will make you cheer up! You can watch it with friends that don't have a clue of Bond and have a good time! That's the special with Bond, it can make you stop breathing by your agony, while it can make you laugh more than every other comedy will!

[dee-bee-five]

I quite agree. I'd watch TWINE over Thunderyawn any day .

OMG! That's high-larious! Thunderyawn... heehee. BRAVO! I'm so amused.

Thank-you. Although, in retrospect, Thunderbore might be even more apt.

[Judo chop]

I quite agree. I'd watch TWINE over Thunderyawn any day .

OMG! That's high-larious! Thunderyawn... heehee. BRAVO! I'm so amused.

Thank-you. Although, in retrospect, Thunderbore might be even more apt.

And I prefer Thunderbore to The World is Nodding Off.