45 replies to this topic

[Double-0-Seven]

Forgive me if there is already a topic on this subject. I tried searching for one but had no results.

Anyways, what are your opinions on the underwater scenes in Thunderball? From what I read in various threads, it seems that most people think that there are too many and that they really slow the pace of the film down. It is probably the most common criticism I hear about Thunderball. It appears the underwater scenes are the main reason a lot of people don't rank this film above Goldfinger.

I must say that I have the exact opposite opinion. I don't think the underwater scenes in Thunderball slow the pace down at all. There is plenty of action on land as well to make up for it. It is my favorite of the Connery films. I rank it higher than Goldfinger.

In fact, I find the scenes at Goldfinger's ranch to really slow that film down, even more so than the underwater scenes do for Thunderball. That is the main reason I like Thunderball so much. I find it much more exciting than any of the other Connery films, though From Russia With Love is a very close second.

[Mr. Blofeld]

I agree; the only underwater scene, for me, that really slows the film down is all of the prolonged bits they have of the SEALS and such before Connery gets onto the Disco Volante.

[HildebrandRarity]

I fell in love w Thunderball in the later 1970s during viewings of all the Connery Bonds which aired during that time on the ABC Sunday Night Movie mainly BECAUSE of the then outstanding underwater action. It was unique (Flipper didnt really count) and The Bahamas location really added a romantic flavour to the film.

Now in the days of multiple viewings via DVD and breakneck editing and the short attention span of those under 32-35, Thunderball suffers...mainly because of the continuity and dubbing errors and, for some, the underwter finale which (admittedly) could be edited for maximum effect.

Connery was at his most assured and he still cut a fine figure in Thunderball - which remains a Top 5 Bond for my money. OHMSS and FRWL give it a run for it's money and these three stood head and shoulders above until TSWLM came along.

Name one Bond film that's perfect and you'll get a multitude of us that will disagree.

[Turn]

I can never understand the criticism of TB's underwater scenes. As someone else said, there is a nice blend of action above and below the waves.

Something that never gets said about TB, but I think plays greatly into into its appeal for me is the underwater atmosphere, it's like a whole different world. The water can be a great adventure for some and a nightmare world for others and we get both in TB.

When Bond is beneath the waves when he first arrives in the Bahamas, it's a beautiful world with giant turtles and full of wonder. For Angelo, it becomes a nightmare, being trapped in the Vulcan and left to drown by Largo. Same with when Bond discovers the Vulcan later in the film with the sharks and the corpses of the dead airmen. Even a pool, when Bond is struggling with Yanni, turns into a frightening place to be trapped, not only with a SPECTRE agent, but sharks.

I can think of a slew of scenes in other Bonds that are far more boring, IMO -- the aforementioned ranch scenes in GF; the underwater scenes in FYEO; practically the entire San Francisco section of AVTAK; practically all of TWINE.

[dodge]

For a long time I wrote TB off because of the underwater scenes. And I still feel the fantasy is somewhat weakened by our inability to see Bond in action...and thus to become him on screen. BUT...My last viewing showed me how wonderfully varied these scenes are. The spear gun killings are almost Homeric in their brutality and imaginativeness. And I've always ranked the rest of TB over GF. Still do.

[Double-0-7]

Thunderball is the main reason I learned to SCUBA dive. I thought the underwater scenes were excellent, and enjoy the action as well as the beauty. I can agree that there may be a bit too much time spent underwater, but at the time that was incredible new technology. The more they could show, the bigger the effect.

Thunderball is my favorite of the Connery films, and always in my top 3-5 from the series. Given the chance, I'll be back diving the skeletal remains of the Vulcan bomber and the ship sunk for Never Say Never Again in a heartbeat!

[Judo chop]

Does this thread need another TB water scene defender? So far it's all been pretty positive. What the heck though...

I'm seeing things through Mr. Blofeld's eyes: only the final SEALS battle is guilty of waterboarding its victims (us). But even this can be seen in (at least) two ways:

1) A scene that, by today's standards, goes on too long.

or

2) The proud flexing of a breakthrough technique in filming.

It is my understanding that nothing like that had ever been done before. I think it's critically important to remember that this is 1965, and to appreciate what that means in terms of the filming standards and techniques that were available.

And most folks here know about the story surrounding the breathing apparatus - that military authorities later asked to see the design, hoping to use it for their own purposes. Bond broke new ground (or broke new water as the case may be) with that battle scene and the underwater theme in general. If that means the exploitation of standard running time, so be it. It's deserved.

Personally, I enjoy that battle scene for what it represents in history as much as I enjoy it for just being cool.

My advice to the wiggleworms who find it tedious? Sit back and enjoy it. What's the hurry anyway? The Disco Volante fight at 1,440+ knots will more than make up for your time lost.

[vavu007]

A quick correction folks. If I am not mistaken, those divers in the final battle are actually Air Force Para-rescue Jumpers (PJ's), not Navy Seals. Another interesting fact is that the B17 used for the skyhook segment was actually owned by a CIA company, and was originally modified for skyhook operations for an intelligence operation involving an abandoned Soviet "drift station" in the Arctic.

[Qwerty]

Don't have much of a problem with them, personally. Particularly love the final battle with John Barry's absolutely pinpoint score slowly building and building and building.

If there anything that slightly detracts, it's the running time of the scene where Largo's men cover up the Vulcan early on in the film. Just a tad too long, but still, nothing big.

[Double-0-Seven]

I'm surprised at how many positive comments there have been in this thread so far. I was expecting there to be more negative ones due to what I've read in various other threads on the forum. It is nice to see a few more Thunderball supporters.

Qwerty, I agree with you about the scene you mentioned. It probably could have been trimmed a little bit, but like you said, only a small problem and nothing big.

[Conlazmoodalbrocra]

I rank Thunderball highly, but I do thonk that the underwater scenes were just a little bit too long and took the action don a notch really. But don't get me wrong, I still love the film on the whole and the underwater scenes were ground-breaking at the time, so the film-makers deserve credit for that!

[Mr. Blofeld]

I'm seeing things through Mr. Blofeld's eyes: only the final SEALS battle is guilty of waterboarding its victims (us).

Thanks for the mention!

[MarcAngeDraco]

Count me amongst those who enjoy the underwater scenes. The sloppy editing is unfortunate, but overall I think they work well and they must have been just about mind-blowing on the big screen in 1965...

[00Twelve]

The underwater fight scenes are still thrilling to watch for me. I always eagerly await the little highlights like the guy who flips the SPECTRE diver on his back and jams the harpoon gun into his eye. Plus, it's a masterpiece compared to the fast-motion fight scene on the Disco that looks a little like it should be set to Benny Hill music.

The other scenes are fine, too. I don't really ever find myself feeling bored or that they're dragging on and on. But for some other Bond films, once they hit act 2 or 3, it's sometimes a struggle to keep going.

[Major Tallon]

I also enjoy the underwater scenes. First, the cinematography is awesome, especially on the big screen. Also, the larger-than-life plot needed to be anchored in plausibility, if not reality, so it was necessary to make the audience feel that a hijacked jet bomber could actually be unloaded and then camouflaged on the ocean floor. These scenes were described in considerable detail in the novel, and they played an important role in the movie. Finally, the large scale underwater battle was an amazing set piece, never done before or since. Parts of it may be a bit slow, and parts of it are a bit silly, but it's surely one of the most remarkable battles in cinema history.

[Colossus]

I don't mind the underwater scenes as much as i used to, they could have been tighter edited like the bomb recovery part, there's a minute and a half of them taking a tarp over the Vulcan folks, that was mesmerizing lol, and the end battle kind of goes on and on and on and on, there's only so many ways one can show someone getting harpooned.

However the fact that so much of it takes place underwater is unique, even if it's wandering time, while the previous and next two Bonds were fast-paced thrillers, this is the perfect background Bond movie to watch unquestionably, in the whole series, i'm not kidding! You can forget about dozing off to any of the 70s Bonds which are colorful and do NOT skimp on the 'fun-ness', the 80s are blander yet they don't skimp on the set-pieces, and of course Brosnan's are action extravaganzas, Thunderball is really one that you can just kick back to.

A lot of it doesn't need attention to get, there's not a lot of exposition, and the underwater scenes make it a great Bond to just hover around when you're not really concentrating, or in the drowsy hours when you can't take in lots of talking or plot-heavy scenes, you can wallow around in a classy Bond atmosphere without it ending so soon... like being of a dream.

Edited by Colossus, 29 March 2008 - 07:37 AM.

[broadshoulder]

As I think someone mentioned above in Thunderball the ocean itself is a protagonist.

Its an obstacle that Bond must circumnavigate to complete his mission. Its a new level of danger ie sharks, spearguns, oxygen rebreathers and instead of tearing around on land looking for the bombs he must don a wetsuit and brave unfamiliar terrain.

It also condones another theme of Thunderball which is piracy. The bombs are pirated from under the noses of the West by a modern day pirate (complete with eyepatch) and hidden as buried treasure.Bond must return with the navy and taken on the pirates to retrieve the treasure. And of course he must brave the "monsters of the deep" ie the creatures that get caught up in the final battle.

Also it gives the film a sense of space and an identity of its own. If gold permeated GF from top to bottom then blue seems to sink into the fabric of this one - the azure of the underwater scenes, the cobalt blue of the sky, the white sand beaches and the sapphire of the wide screen ocean shots. It seems to open the film up and make it more expansive.

If the under 35 crowd cannot get past the slower pace of this film then maybe Bond is not for them. There are times when John Barrys piano notes start up and the orange chariot appears from out of the blue that are of sublime beauty. The ocean has an ethereal otherworldly feel and the pace compliments this. How can you do a fast action film when the ocean is patiently lapping at your feet.

So take time out and imagine you are in the Bahamas - the hot sun is on your back, the salty tang of the sea is on your skin and the only sound is the lapping of waves. The underwater scenes in Thunderball are simply gorgeous...

[MarkA]

As one of the older members I first saw THUNDERBALL on a double bill with GOLDFINGER around 1968 and from that first viewing onwards I have always preferred THUNDERBALL precisely because of those wonderful underwater scenes. As a little boy I was absolutely entranced and amazed by them. Though FRWL is my favourite Bond, THUNDERBALL still holds the award for the best looking BOND, and the best performance of Connery as Bond, he is so smooth, so cool. Before the boredom set in with YOLT.

[Professor Dent]

A lot of it doesn't need attention to get, there's not a lot of exposition, and the underwater scenes make it a great Bond to just hover around when you're not really concentrating, or in the drowsy hours when you can't take in lots of talking or plot-heavy scenes, you can wallow around in a classy Bond atmosphere without it ending so soon... like being of a dream.

I agree. It is the perfect movie for that lazy Saturday afternoon. Pop it in the DVD player, kick back on the couch, & feel free to doze off as needed. Barry's underwater music is rather relaxing too.

[Mr.B]

I hate TB so much because of the underwater-stuf. It's almost as boring as NSNA.

[dogmanstar]

I think Thunderball is beautiful--and perhaps should be seen on the big screen as intended. However, it's pace does seem rather dated. That's not a criticsm of Terence Young, et. al. It's just a fact that today's audience wants a faster paced movie. Of the first four, only GF could get made today at its current pacing. All the Young directed ones would get edited to bits.

If you don't believe me, try watching Hitchcok's Vertigo. Jimmy Stewart drives around San Francisco for 2/3 of the movie--and this from the master of suspense!

[Mr.B]

Yes, I believe you, I just don't like it.

[MarkA]

If you don't believe me, try watching Hitchcok's Vertigo. Jimmy Stewart drives around San Francisco for 2/3 of the movie--and this from the master of suspense!

Hitchcock's Vertigo is a masterpiece and if you can't take the pace you need to mature more.

[Double-Oh Agent]

Don't have much of a problem with them, personally. Particularly love the final battle with John Barry's absolutely pinpoint score slowly building and building and building.

If there anything that slightly detracts, it's the running time of the scene where Largo's men cover up the Vulcan early on in the film. Just a tad too long, but still, nothing big.

I completely agree Qwerty. Thunderball is great as is.

[Jim]

As I think someone mentioned above in Thunderball the ocean itself is a protagonist.

Its an obstacle that Bond must circumnavigate to complete his mission. Its a new level of danger ie sharks, spearguns, oxygen rebreathers and instead of tearing around on land looking for the bombs he must don a wetsuit and brave unfamiliar terrain.

It also condones another theme of Thunderball which is piracy. The bombs are pirated from under the noses of the West by a modern day pirate (complete with eyepatch) and hidden as buried treasure.Bond must return with the navy and taken on the pirates to retrieve the treasure. And of course he must brave the "monsters of the deep" ie the creatures that get caught up in the final battle.

Also it gives the film a sense of space and an identity of its own. If gold permeated GF from top to bottom then blue seems to sink into the fabric of this one - the azure of the underwater scenes, the cobalt blue of the sky, the white sand beaches and the sapphire of the wide screen ocean shots. It seems to open the film up and make it more expansive.

If the under 35 crowd cannot get past the slower pace of this film then maybe Bond is not for them. There are times when John Barrys piano notes start up and the orange chariot appears from out of the blue that are of sublime beauty. The ocean has an ethereal otherworldly feel and the pace compliments this. How can you do a fast action film when the ocean is patiently lapping at your feet.

So take time out and imagine you are in the Bahamas - the hot sun is on your back, the salty tang of the sea is on your skin and the only sound is the lapping of waves. The underwater scenes in Thunderball are simply gorgeous...

Lovely. I agree entirely.

[Loomis]

I also agree, although that doesn't mean to say that THUNDERBALL doesn't also have its share of rather clumsy elements that simply don't work (however, its highlights are truly, erm, high). Good points, though, broadshoulder.

I think the key to THUNDERBALL is to watch it on as big a screen as possible. In the absence of a cinema showing, a Blu-ray DVD version on one of those newfangled high definition widescreen TV sets would surely be a sight to behold.

[broadshoulder]

I think Thunderball is beautiful--and perhaps should be seen on the big screen as intended. However, it's pace does seem rather dated. That's not a criticsm of Terence Young, et. al. It's just a fact that today's audience wants a faster paced movie. Of the first four, only GF could get made today at its current pacing. All the Young directed ones would get edited to bits.

If you don't believe me, try watching Hitchcok's Vertigo. Jimmy Stewart drives around San Francisco for 2/3 of the movie--and this from the master of suspense!

And Omar Sharif gets a full minute of entrance approaching the waterhole in Laurence of Arabia - its called suspense.

I wonder if the under 30s just look at thing differently. They need to be bombarded with image after image, cut after cut like DAD. One of the reasons CR worked is that it took time to tell a story. It even drew breath to show us aerial shots of Montenegro and Venice which added to the atmosphere.

A large part of Thunderball with John Barrys music and those eerie depths is atmosphere..

[SPOTTER]

I love Thunderball. It's probably my favourite Bond film. I don't think the underwater scenes slow the pace of the film down. The times are capured perfectly in those early Connery movies. The film just has a classy feel to it. The villains are spot on and the girls are great. I always remember when i was a young boy and went swimming, i always pictured those underwater scenes with Bond at Largo's house. Great stuff.

[Loomis]

One of the reasons CR worked is that it took time to tell a story. It even drew breath to show us aerial shots of Montenegro and Venice which added to the atmosphere.

Hear, hear!

CASINO ROYALE returned some of that wonderful old-time travelogue feel to the series, in which THUNDERBALL is drenched. I hope that Forster has a sharp eye for location and atmosphere.

I love the Bournes, but I must admit that they do suffer from that "image after image, cut after cut" thing (especially ULTIMATUM).

[HildebrandRarity]

...and, as a result, I sincerley hope MF's claim that Q0S will be no more than 120s is pure poppy-cock.

We need proper location establishing shots and atmosphere. [And not the horrid and dated speed ramping we got in Iceland from LT in DAD.]

AND no bloody epilepsian doses of "shakey-cam" either! Please and thank you!

Atmosphere, atmosphere and more atmosphere!