41 replies to this topic

[sam29]

We have had 3 Jason Bourne movies. We had Casino Royale which I think was a Jason Bourn copy-cat movie do we need another Jason Bourne film? I think they made 18 great Bond movies and 2 bad Bond films. Why do they think that when they get to Bond 21 they think they need to copy anther movie. I liked Casino Royale but to me it did not feel like a Bond movie. It is a shame that Bond has had to change so much that it is now a very different film to what it was. How many more Jason Bourne movies can they make. I am not so sure about Bond 22. At least we have Thomas Crown 2 and Indiana Jones to see next year. Sorry if people do not agree with me.

Edited by sam29, 22 September 2007 - 09:59 PM.

[dinovelvet]

No. Bond 22 will actually be a Spider-Man movie.

[Loomis]

At least we have Thomas Crown 2 and Indiana Jones to see next year.

Don't forget RAMBO IV. Bet Broccoli, Wilson, Craig, Forster, Haggis and co. are absolutely bricking themselves over that one.

[Publius]

We had Casino Royale which I think was a Jason Bourn copy-cat movie do we need another Jason Bourne film?

Frankly, if anyone thinks Casino Royale is even mostly like a Bourne movie, they're an idiot. They have their similarities, of course, but so do the other Bond films and Bourne: DN and FRWL were similarly dark and realistic, OHMSS and LTK were similarly personal and character-driven, numerous others were similarly action-packed and grand in scope.

So it's not "Bourne copying", it's Bond copying himself. The decision for Bond to return to his roots and get back to basics might have been inspired by Bourne, but it's also tradition for Bond movies to make that about-face after an epic (some would say bloated) spectacle...like, say, DAD. Plus, there was a desire to stay faithful (in letter where practical, in spirit otherwise) to the recently acquired CR novel, the film rights to which have eluded EON for 40 years.

Basically, Bond 22 will probably continue what CR has started...which means the REAL James Bond is back, and the unfortunately mistaken "conventional wisdom" that Bond must be this perpetual relic of early 60s culture who always wears a tux, cracks bad puns, and has no relevance in today's world is finally, thankfully, being washed away.

[draxingtonstanley]

Frankly, if anyone thinks Casino Royale is even mostly like a Bourne movie, they're an idiot. They have their similarities, of course, but so do the other Bond films and Bourne: DN and FRWL were similarly dark and realistic, OHMSS and LTK were similarly personal and character-driven, numerous others were similarly action-packed and grand in scope.

So it's not "Bourne copying", it's Bond copying himself. The decision for Bond to return to his roots and get back to basics might have been inspired by Bourne, but it's also tradition for Bond movies to make that about-face after an epic (some would say bloated) spectacle...like, say, DAD. Plus, there was a desire to stay faithful (in letter where practical, in spirit otherwise) to the recently acquired CR novel, the film rights to which have eluded EON for 40 years.

Basically, Bond 22 will probably continue what CR has started...which means the REAL James Bond is back, and the unfortunately mistaken "conventional wisdom" that Bond must be this perpetual relic of early 60s culture who always wears a tux, cracks bad puns, and has no relevance in today's world is finally, thankfully, being washed away.

What he said.

Edited by draxingtonstanley, 22 September 2007 - 11:46 PM.

[Barbershop Quartet]

I can't see how people tie connections between Bond and Bourne. Bond is a cultural icon and almost a cult. Bourne is just a passing phase.

[JimmyBond]

No. Bond 22 will actually be a Spider-Man movie.

Dang. I was hoping it would be a Star Trek movie.

[Single-O-Seven]

Actually they're going the p

[jaguar007]

CR did not copy Bourne, Casino Royale copied a series of books written well before Bourne by and author named Ian Fleming. Perhaps the Bond books influenced Bourne so it was more of a case of Bourne copying Bond than Bond copying Bourne.

[stamper]

The original poster is wrong, all Bond movies since the seventies were crap, discounting one or two.

Bond is back, and is he Bourne influenced ? Oh yeah, but Bourne is Bond influenced also, Bourne series of book basically starts where the last Fleming book (YOLT) ended. MWTGG is an unfinished novel. So it's good that they influence one another, and Bourne is not a passing phrase, it's a series that made an impact like the Bond Gonzo movies were not making anymore.

[Mr_Wint]

If you are a fan of EON's fantasy Bond, you shouldn't be too worried. Trust me on this: He WILL come back

[sam29]

Sorry to upset people. I ment that Bond has just changed so much from what it was when I was a kid when Roger More was Bond.

[stamper]

That's wasn't bond, that was Bondzo !

[draxingtonstanley]

Sorry to upset people. I ment that Bond has just changed so much from what it was when I was a kid when Roger More was Bond.

No upset on my part, so no apology necessary sam29. Sorry to quote the 'is an idiot' part of that post. I should have altered it to 'is in my view mistaken' before quoting the rest of it. Lazy of me.

Robust debate always welcome on these forums from what I can make out,so let rip!

[Harmsway]

Not the Jason Bourne thing again.

[Johnboy007]

I've heard that Spock and Han Solo will make appearances.

[JP007]

We should have a group debate\therapy with a few people, just get Tom cruise, Matt Damon, Angelina Jolie, Harrison Ford and all the ones who craved to have a film franchise of their own, get them all together and lets have a debate about who

Edited by JP007, 23 September 2007 - 07:29 PM.

[HildebrandRarity]

I hear bad Brad is dumping Angelina and is moving on to the next one...

[dinovelvet]

Sorry to upset people. I ment that Bond has just changed so much from what it was when I was a kid when Roger More was Bond.

Right, because the Roger Moore films were never influenced by the cinema trends of the time.

[JP007]

I hear bad Brad is dumping Angelina and is moving on to the next one...

Thanks, I

[JP007]

No. Bond 22 will actually be a Spider-Man movie.

I hear they

[Bondian]

Although I thoroughly enjoyed 'Bourne Ultimatum', there was so much Casino Royale there. I actually thought I was seeing an epilogue of Casino Royale. There was a lot of Bourne in Casino Royale.

Damon (from the back) looked unfit and porky. Craig is a powerhouse of muscle.

Bourne has a bulge in his pockets, Craig's Bond has a bulge in his centre pocket.

Inotherwords, Craig's Bond would easily win a pissing contest.

Cheers,


Ian

[marktmurphy]

Frankly, if anyone thinks Casino Royale is even mostly like a Bourne movie, they're an idiot. They have their similarities, of course, but so do the other Bond films and Bourne: DN and FRWL were similarly dark and realistic, OHMSS and LTK were similarly personal and character-driven, numerous others were similarly action-packed and grand in scope.

So it's not "Bourne copying", it's Bond copying himself.

I suppose that if one was to say that if anyone thinks that CR had no closer inspiration from Bourne, they're an idiot; you might feel a bit miffed? If you do, I'd have to say: don't call people idiots.

CR is clearly inspired by Bourne on a much closer level than just the slightly edgier feel of FRWL: the action, Bond himself and many scenes have a distinct Bourne feel, and they're much the better for it. I don't remember many scenes of Connery confronting and bruised and battered reflection of himself after killing a man all filmed with a shakey hand held camera, but it's exactly the sort of thing Matt Dmaon has been trading in. There's a huge Bond and Fleming feel in there too: I don't feel that it's simply a lift from Bourne as the OP does, but it's much more than the usual FYEO-after-Moonraker stuff, and you'd have to be an idiot not to notice it. Oh sorry; that's not very nice, is it?

[DaveBond21]

Bond movies have both influenced and been influenced by movie trends throughout the 45 years that they've been around.

For example DAF and LALD ushered in a decade of light-hearted car chase movies, whereas Moonraker took advantage of the Sci-Fi boom of the late seventies.

[Emma]

Bond movies have both influenced and been influenced by movie trends throughout the 45 years that they've been around.

For example DAF and LALD ushered in a decade of light-hearted car chase movies, whereas Moonraker took advantage of the Sci-Fi boom of the late seventies.

Perfectly said.

Casino Royale seemed to have been influenced 80% by Batman Begins, 15% from Bourne, 5% The Transporter (both characters are brutish ex-military men with the taste for the highlife).


The only similarity I saw between the Bourne films and CR were the gritty fight scenes. Personally CR seemed to been based mostly on the ideas from which Christopher Nolan had in Batman Begins.

[killkenny kid]

I can't see how people tie connections between Bond and Bourne. Bond is a cultural icon and almost a cult. Bourne is just a passing phase.

Indded.

[dinovelvet]

Bond movies have both influenced and been influenced by movie trends throughout the 45 years that they've been around.

For example DAF and LALD ushered in a decade of light-hearted car chase movies, whereas Moonraker took advantage of the Sci-Fi boom of the late seventies.

Perfectly said.

Casino Royale seemed to have been influenced 80% by Batman Begins, 15% from Bourne, 5% The Transporter (both characters are brutish ex-military men with the taste for the highlife).


The only similarity I saw between the Bourne films and CR were the gritty fight scenes. Personally CR seemed to been based mostly on the ideas from which Christopher Nolan had in Batman Begins.

I would add a bit of a 24 influence too. Craig's Bond had a bit of a Bauer-ish quality about him in the first half of the film. The Miami airport scene in particular seemed straight out of 24, you could easily imagine Jack Bauer talking to Chloe on his cellphone in split screen.

[Publius]

No upset on my part, so no apology necessary sam29. Sorry to quote the 'is an idiot' part of that post. I should have altered it to 'is in my view mistaken' before quoting the rest of it. Lazy of me.

Just to be clear, I wasn't calling sam29 or anyone in particular an idiot. I thought I made that clear by referring to those who thought CR was "mostly", or entirely, a Bourne rip-off. But yes, I do think the crowd of people claiming that CR is more like Bourne than a Bond movie, despite numerous Bond movies where similarities can be better and more frequently found, are indeed "idiots". If that applies to sam29 or anyone else, that's my opinion, and they're free to think the same about me.

I suppose that if one was to say that if anyone thinks that CR had no closer inspiration from Bourne, they're an idiot; you might feel a bit miffed? If you do, I'd have to say: don't call people idiots.

Please spare me this politically correct nonsense. The "CR = Bond reBourne" diatribe was the refrain of many anti-Craig/anti-reboot knee-jerk reactionaries. I've never seen any reasoning behind that argument -- and we had A LOT of threads making that argument -- and it's no different here. (Note: I'm not categorizing sam29 as one of those people. His thread title and opening post may be inflammatory, but he's not spewing venom.) I'm just harsh about the topic whenever it rears its ugly head and, once again, has no support. Pardon me if that offends you, but I'm not going to act differently, and you're free to be similarly critical of me for whatever reason.

Yes, there are similarities between CR and Bourne, and I even acknowledged them in my previous post (and numerous times elsewhere). But aside from the stairwell fight and Bond washing up in the bathroom, I don't see anything that is more Bourne than Bond.

The PTS? Film noir and Connery "you've had your six" or Dalton. African rundown? Free running Purvis or Wade had seen somewhere (and I think it wasn't even a movie). Bahamas? Thunderball Connery. Miami airport? Brosnan era action sequence. Train ride? Brosnan era "girl power" with sharper writing. Card game? I think the only precedent is in the novel; they just fleshed it out. Bond getting poisoned? An update on the novel's cane-wielding henchman, and use of the obligatory gadget. Torture scene? It's in the novel and integral to the story. Bond's recovery/falling in love with Vesper? Novel, and OHMSS. Venice? A more "cinematic" way for Vesper to die and the movie to end.

I contend there are even less similarities when you compare the monogamous, ever-brooding, anti-"system", relatively bland Bourne to Bond, whether Craig's or Brosnan's or those before them, who is the opposite (and I say that as a Bourne and Damon fan; the character and his adventures are meant to be that way).

Yes, Bourne helped them realize how far they've drifted from the less-cartoonish Bond movies. But they were probably already realizing that, given the mixed reception to DAD, and their own senses. And with Brosnan out (and Craig in) and the bombastic anniversary party over, things were inevitably going to change anyway. Then there were other movies, like Batman Begins (which I think one can make a better case for inspiring CR), going into "darker" and more realistic territory. I'm sure there were other factors I don't know or forgot. Besides, being one of several factors that leads to a change is very different from being the only factor, let alone being "even mostly" carbon copied.

it's much more than the usual FYEO-after-Moonraker stuff, and you'd have to be an idiot not to notice it

Agreed. And I've always said as much.

[Skudor]

It's not an unreasonable fear (although calling CR a Bourne copy-cat film is a bit off, as Bourne is essential a Bond copy in the first place) given how popular Bourne seems to be these days.

Personally I don't see it happening - would be very surprised to see shaky camera work to the same extent in a Bond film, for example. Quicker pacing, more realistic scenes (a la the Waterloo scene in BU) and so on are all possible though. As is the focus on Bond being on his own against all odds - which is hardly that original anyway.

[stamper]

Bourne washes his bloody hands in the sink -- Bond washes his bloody hands in the sink

Bourne look at his bloody face in the mirror -- Bond look at his bloody face in the mirror

Bourne sees his girl friend die underwater -- Bond sees his girl friend die underwater

Bourne breaks in an embassy, kicking guards left and right and makes his escape --
Bond breaks in an embassy, kicking guards left and right and makes his escape

Bourne assassin get mistaken for a killer and is apprehended by the police while bourne escape --
Bond get mistaken for a terrorist and is apprehended by the police while the real terrorist escape

Do you want me to continue ? I could list similarities between CR and Bourne 1 &2 all night long, scene after scene, shot after shot, angle after angle. During the first chase, all Bond actions are like Bourne. He notices things, and used them while still running. etc etc etc

I would say about 50 % of CR set pieces minimum are ALL copied onto the first two Bourne movies. The 50% which are not Fleming that is. There are so numerous action set pieces, situations, shots, that are similar, that it's virtual a game of the (00) 7 errors. I'm not even going into that whole computer team that suddenly appears in MI5 headquarters etc

I'm not talking about action that would be similar from one movie to another, I'm speaking REAL, OBVIOUS, LIFTS from the Bourne series. BOND IS BOURNED ! And the better for it. Bond have the edge, because we all love the character. But he is, obviously, totally, Bourne influenced.