42 replies to this topic

[thecasinoroyale]

Just listening to the TND here at work and as it's very infectious with welcome orchestral themes as well as some synthy work, some things have come to bear on me.


That you can get fed up hearing the James Bond Theme after so many times in most of the tracks...over and over again.


Does anyone else feel that they've been bombarded with the theme during the Brosnan era and feel half-bored of it? I hope something comes of this to re-invent the thrill of hearing the theme again for true Bond moments, not just backseat driving a car or escaping a building.



Plus, how cooler is it to use the credit music in the themes, like 'Backseat Driver' sampling most of "Surrender" in it, much like 'The Living Daylights' and 'A View To A Kill' did, and of course 'Casino Royale'.

I feel using the credit music makes far much epic listening than usual Bond theme riffs.

[Professor Dent]

The Bond theme was over the top because Serra basically ignored it in Goldeneye (which I think hurt that score a lot). Even if he would have expanded on what he did with the gunbarrel music, it could have been very interesting. Totally agree on using the movie song in the score is the way to go. The CR score worked very well in this regard. This is the one thing I really miss in the more recent movies. John Barry always pulled this off. In Arnold's defense, some of the title songs were completed & delivered very late in the production & he had the scores almost finished at that point (hint to EON, don't hire Madonna again). Surrender was pulled at the last minute so there is proof that Arnold was trying to do this in his previous scores as well. I hope he can find a happy medium with using the Bond theme & getting the title songs into the score on Bond 22 - assuming, of course, he is hired to do the score. I do find myself listening to Arnold's scores a lot though. The over the top use of the Bond theme works for me sometimes.

[Qwerty]

Totally agree on using the movie song in the score is the way to go.

Ditto. Arnold's Tomorrow Never Dies is still my favourite of his four James Bond scores so far. I know some Bond fans criticize the overuse of the Bond theme here, but it really didn't bother me. Love the action cues (Backseat Driver, Hamburg Break Out, Helicopter Chase...) and his intertwining of Surrender in the score.

Kowloon Bay (on the expanded soundtrack) is fantastic.

[Vauxhall]

Apologies for dragging up such an old thread, but I didn't think it was worth starting a new one.

It's probably been mentioned before, but I've been relistening to this score and after all these years, the pedant in me has only just noticed a song titling error. One of the best cues on the expanded album is "Kowloon Bay", however that actual location is in Hong Kong, where the film was neither filmed nor set. Presumably it should be "Ha Long Bay", where the movie's finale is set in Vietnam. Fairly big slip.

[The Cat]

Does anyone else feel that they've been bombarded with the theme during the Brosnan era and feel half-bored of it?

Nope, this is just a myth created by reviewers who either a ) didn't pay attention to the music or b ) just copied what these other people said.

Edited by The Cat, 06 April 2009 - 04:42 AM.

[Ernst Stavro Blofeld Jr.]

It's a myth if its personal opinion?

Wow Cat, I didn't realize you were an expert on people's opinions too.


Arnold used the Bond theme too much during the Brosnan era, in particularly TND, and I do get annoyed sometimes when he uses it a half dozen times or more in a film. Look at OHMSS, Barry used the Bond theme what once or twice in full force? A great Bond score does not need the Bond theme blasting during all the set pieces.

[Marcato]

"When James Bond does some typical james bond things there's really only one thing you want to hear and that is james bond music"


true - BUT does it have to include only the james bond theme - anyway if you listen from TLD through LTK and GE - TND are actually working best - it will feel most welcome - my opinion

[The Cat]

Arnold used the Bond theme too much during the Brosnan era, in particularly TND, and I do get annoyed sometimes when he uses it a half dozen times or more in a film. Look at OHMSS, Barry used the Bond theme what once or twice in full force? A great Bond score does not need the Bond theme blasting during all the set pieces.

WARNING: Dangerous Trivia area

Nope, I'm not an expert of opinons. I'm an expert of how many times the Bond theme is used in a given movie. Here's a surprising fact that might shock you: Barry uses the Bond theme more in his scores (depending on which you pick) than Arnold did in... let's say TWINE and while my figures are not here at the moment, I even dare to say DAD.

OHMSS is perhaps not the best comparision because there the most noticeable usages of the Bond theme were put in by Peter Hunt during the editing phase, and since Barry deliberately avoide the tune, that score is in deed low on Bond theme. I know these statements are hard to believe when everybody says "ah, the Bond theme is overused in the Brosnan era etc. etc." It's not a matter of opinion - it's a matter of counting and comparing it to other pictures. And of course definition, because you can definte the "James Bond Theme" in radically different ways. That's the beauty of it.

[DamnCoffee]

That's quite odd, considering Barry said he wanted to constantly remind the audience that Lazenby was Connery's James Bond, you would think he would've wanted the theme in as much as possible.

[The Cat]

And yet, it's not really there. The riff in particular is used very sparsely, its most prominent appearacne is in the opening where Barry uses it for the character continuity you mentioned. But then you can't keep continue estabilishing the character - either you buy it or not. For the most part, Barry preferred to use his own OHMSS main theme in this score and use a complex set of themes (there's really a lot going on in this score). The lack of the theme is especially evident in the major action set pieces which use the OHMSS theme instead of the Bond theme. As I said, the thickest appearance was initiated by Peter Hunt during the editing of the final scene - the hideous cuts from the Dr. No score in particular.

[Mr_Wint]

Still, Barry created/recorded a new version of the Bondtheme for OHMSS (like he did for FRWL, GF, TB and YOLT).

[The Cat]

Still, Barry created/recorded a new version of the Bondtheme for OHMSS (like he did for FRWL, GF, TB and YOLT).

Well that's a given, almost everybody did their own versions of the Bond theme, usually to suit the new orchestral palette of the score. GF has it on the brass, FRWL has improvisatory bongo stuck in, in OHMSS the riff is carried on the moog which matches the other synthesized elements. But this is not unique: Martin re-recorded it with the assembly put together for LALD, Hamlisch did Bond '77, Conti did his own "Rocky-take" on it. And Arnold did these things too.

The only one who didn't do it a bit was Barry himself, as he only made minimal adjustments to the arrangement in the MR-AVTAK era with only minor variations. While he introducing a riffless, bebop based-take in Moonraker, he never repeated that idea. Octopussy and A View To A Kill both used basically concert arrangements which (at least in the case of OP) were fixed in post-production through editing instead of composition.

[Ernst Stavro Blofeld Jr.]

I know you consider yourself a music expert, but I also said the Bond theme in full blast. Barry would use the riff throughout the scores of course, we didn't use it for all major set pieces in the manner in which Arnold did. He used it full blast in many sequences and to a lesser degree (as Barry often did) in a number of sequences of well.

Just because you claim to know so much about Bond's music (and I'm not doubting that you do) doesn't mean you can try to tell people what their opinions should be. Whether he uses it more or less than Barry isn't relevant to the situation. What it relevant is how Arnold used it so much in TND. He made efforts in TWINE to come up with a secondary action theme, but unfortunately the score was too heavy on electronics. I'm just happy that he has been able to do two above average scores for the last films and not relied on the theme for the action sequences.

[00Twelve]

A) That MR-AVTAK rendition of the theme really started in TMWTGG and carried on through TLD (minus the new synthesized bass).

I, for one, am glad not to have heard the Bond theme very much in these past couple of films and I would hope only to hear it once in the gunbarrel, once in the PTS (though I wouldn't really miss it if it weren't there), and once in the film proper. Even that's pushing it for me. As long as it's used sparingly in whatever combination the composer sees fit.

And if he doesn't...

[Mr_Wint]

The only one who didn't do it a bit was Barry himself, (...)

I don't know what you mean. I can hear a new take on the Bondtheme in almost all Barry-scores.

DN: "The James Bond Theme"
FRWL: "James Bond with Bongos"
GF: "oddjob's pressing engagement"
TB: "Chateau Flight"
YOLT: "James Bond In Japan"
OHMSS: "This Never Happened To The Other Fella"
DAF: "Bond To Holland"
TMWTGG: "Let's go get them"
MR: "Freefall"
OP: "Gobinda Attacks"
AVTAK: "May Day Jumps" (similar to OP)
TLD: "Ice Chase"

(Note that I included the JB-theme in DN since it is 99.9% Barry.)

[The Cat]

Just because you claim to know so much about Bond's music (and I'm not doubting that you do) doesn't mean you can try to tell people what their opinions should be.

Here's my take on it. Opinions are based on facts. And some facts are not correct. Thus this may lead to incorrect opinions or to make this less of an oxymoron, opinions that either can not be supported by facts or are supported by false facts. Now of course there's also an element of personal preference, such as how many times do you feel the Bond theme should appear in a score (there are people who don't want it to appear at all, have fun with that). However, when a claim is made, there's always a way to dissect it - in fact, several ways.

Let me add a couple of other observations. For instance, Barry tended to incorporate the Bond theme into his own original material a lot more than later on. For aesthetic and financial reasons, many of the latter scores barely incorporate the Bond theme into Barry's own work - instead, the movies feature complete recordings of the Bond theme. AVTAK is perhaps the best example - with the exception of the gunbarrel you have one complete arrangement of the Bond theme in the movie and that's about it. There's simply no interpolation of the material with the score - this on the other hand is more frequent in Arnold's case, who in turn rarely does complete takes of the theme.

Also, on the subject of how many times a Bond themes appear does not necessarily depend on the composer. The producers and to a lesser degree the director have a say in this. For instance, Barry had to put in an extra appearance in DAF against his own idea. Arnold had to do the same on DAD, but in turn they removed one of his recordings, so that's about 1:1 in that match. That's not even counting the notorious re-usage of the Dr. No recording which was used as a gap-filler whenever they producers realized they goofed up the spotting. This game has too many players to count.

The only one who didn't do it a bit was Barry himself, (...)

I don't know what you mean. I can hear a new take on the Bondtheme in almost all Barry-scores.

Sure, nobody said he didn't. Your original post said "Still, Barry created/recorded a new version of the Bondtheme for OHMSS (like he did for FRWL, GF, TB and YOLT)." To me, this sounds like Barry creates new arrangements of the Bond theme, while other composers don't. But that's only only because of the "still" part which was misleading.

Every composer recorded new and new versions of the Bond Theme for their respective movies. I singled out Barry a bit because of his later reliance on standard orchestral fare with less variation than other composers or his earlier self did. But of course he had his own agenda to do this shift which I could understood for the mid-70s period, but later on seemed like just being a bit more comfortable.

Edited by The Cat, 07 April 2009 - 11:14 PM.

[marktmurphy]

Every composer recorded new and new versions of the Bond Theme for their respective movies. I singled out Barry a bit because of his later reliance on standard orchestral fare with less variation than other composers or his earlier self did. But of course he had his own agenda to do this shift which I could understood for the mid-70s period, but later on seemed like just being a bit more comfortable.

True enough- I'd even count the TLD Ice Chase in the same group as OP, AVTAK and MR- it's basically the same concert arrangement with a drumbeat on top. Barry did integrate the Bond theme a little more in TLD but there still wasn't much in the way of little quotes; just the full-blown version, as you say.
TWINE does have remarkably little Bond theme in there, and DAD isn't bursting at the seams with it either- I think it's just that TND had enough of it in there to make up for both of them!

[Harmsway]

TWINE does have remarkably little Bond theme in there

Remarkably little? It depends what you consider remarkably little. It has a lot more overt Bond theme than a lot of the scores in the franchise, with ramped up versions during the Bilbao scene, the boat chase, during the "Bond, James Bond" of the bunker sequence, and then again during the caviar factory cue. That's a sizable amount.

DAD isn't bursting at the seams with it either

Um, sure it is.

We get it sown throughout the pre-title sequence in a number of cues, including its big presentation during the hovercraft chase. It's thrown out at us when Bond receives the "kiss of life." We get a guitar rendition when Bond gets the old fairlane, and have it quoted again when Bond enters the gene clinic. It's played when we segue to the virtual reality sequence and when Bond gets the "Vanish." It's quoted in unforgettably grandiose style when Bond heads to Iceland, and then again when Bond parasurfs. And that's not counting all the little, less noticable hints woven throughout the score, either.

[Mr. Blofeld]

That's not even counting the notorious re-usage of the Dr. No recording which was used as a gap-filler whenever they producers realized they goofed up the spotting. This game has too many players to count.

What do you mean by "spotting"? I know it was inserted by the producers, but your phrasing confuses me a bit...

[The Cat]

What do you mean by "spotting"? I know it was inserted by the producers, but your phrasing confuses me a bit...

Spotting is the process during which the filmmakers select in what scenes they want music. This is usually done together with the composer and the music editor - only the scenes that were decide to have music in this meeting receive music. However, when it turns out that a given scene needs music and it wasn't written, the filmmakers can either ask the composer to come back and write one more cue (an even for which I can't think of an example off-hand) or simply patch up the whole with a piece of existing music. In the early Bond films, this piece was the original recording of the James Bond Theme - if you hear it somewhere other than Dr. No, you know there was some minor issue (I won't go into detail what happened in each case).

[tim partridge]

The little Nellie chase from YOLT seems to have been temped with the James Bond theme, as it's rhythmically cut to the music and ends with rather synchronised precision. That seems less like a patch up job and more of a genuine temp track (and it is documented that Peter Hunt, who directed alot of that sequence, came in to replace editor Thelma Connell in the cutting room at late notice, so tweaks like this would be understandable).

[Double-0-7]

I'm listening to the extended version of the Tomorrow Never Dies soundtrack currently and find it quite enjoyable. But I use the Bond theme for incoming calls on my cell, so maybe I am nursing a slight addiction problem.

[The Cat]

The little Nellie chase from YOLT seems to have been temped with the James Bond theme, as it's rhythmically cut to the music and ends with rather synchronised precision. That seems less like a patch up job and more of a genuine temp track (and it is documented that Peter Hunt, who directed alot of that sequence, came in to replace editor Thelma Connell in the cutting room at late notice, so tweaks like this would be understandable).

Let me check my notes... Nope.

[Shaun Forever]

What do you mean by "spotting"? I know it was inserted by the producers, but your phrasing confuses me a bit...

Spotting is the process during which the filmmakers select in what scenes they want music. This is usually done together with the composer and the music editor - only the scenes that were decide to have music in this meeting receive music. However, when it turns out that a given scene needs music and it wasn't written, the filmmakers can either ask the composer to come back and write one more cue (an even for which I can't think of an example off-hand) or simply patch up the whole with a piece of existing music. In the early Bond films, this piece was the original recording of the James Bond Theme - if you hear it somewhere other than Dr. No, you know there was some minor issue (I won't go into detail what happened in each case).

Not to mention in FRWL, towards the end of the boat chase, we hear a piece from Dr No.

[Professor Pi]

I'm listening to the extended version of the Tomorrow Never Dies soundtrack currently and find it quite enjoyable. But I use the Bond theme for incoming calls on my cell, so maybe I am nursing a slight addiction problem.

I have that problem too ... unless you have my phone!

[Mr. Blofeld]

The little Nellie chase from YOLT seems to have been temped with the James Bond theme, as it's rhythmically cut to the music and ends with rather synchronised precision. That seems less like a patch up job and more of a genuine temp track (and it is documented that Peter Hunt, who directed alot of that sequence, came in to replace editor Thelma Connell in the cutting room at late notice, so tweaks like this would be understandable).

Let me check my notes... Nope.

Well, Cat, there are two cues on the YOLT soundtrack, respectively titled Tanaka's World and Twice is the Only Way to Live, that do not appear in the film proper, so I'm guessing John Barry scored the film before its re-edit; hence, the use of the Dr. No Bond theme in the Little Nellie chase.

[Ernst Stavro Blofeld Jr.]

There's no point in getting into an argument with The Cat. He always claims to know everything about film music, and will post a wall of text to prove why he's right.

[Mr. Blofeld]

There's no point in getting into an argument with The Cat. He always claims to know everything about film music, and will post a wall of text to prove why he's right.

So... is he right?

[Ernst Stavro Blofeld Jr.]

Supposedly, but he says he has facts but really never lets any body else know how to find them out as well. I think he's writing a book or whatever, but either way he comes off as this all knowing individual who is never wrong.

Of course, I called him out on questioning one's opinions and he continued with a series of paragraphs explaining how our opinions are invalid.

Take that for what you will.

[The Cat]

There's no point in getting into an argument with The Cat. He always claims to know everything about film music, and will post a wall of text to prove why he's right.

Feel free to argue with me, but be prepared for the wall of informative text.

Now, to answer a real question for Mr. Blofeld:

If you check the studio logs and recording dates, it's clear when Barry recorded the music to YOLT. Regarding those two cues, Tanaka's world was written for the sequence Bond meets Tanaka, but it was left out because it didn't feel right in the scene. It was put on the album though because they wanted a good track that would represent the Japanese setting of the picture, hence the unused cue was retained as a so-called moodsetter.

Twice is the Only Way to live was written as the End Credits of the picture - if you compare Track 12 with 19 on the expanded, you realize they are the SAME recording to a point. However, two things came up. A ) The end credits were slightly reformatted (it was one of the few end credits Binder was involved as well, hence the change) and they didn't want to cut the instrumental piece. B ) The producers thought that it would be better to close the movie with a reprise of the song, so they cut Sinatra's recording to fit the length of the credits. No surprise there, Barry wrote instrumental end credits for both Goldfinger and Thunderball - the first wasn't used and the second was used only in some prints (and not the one that was used for the DVD).

BTW, there are at least 8-10 cues on the soundtrack that are not used in the movie and they were similarly all written for the locked cut of the picture.

Any other complaints?

Edited by The Cat, 12 April 2009 - 09:52 AM.