32 replies to this topic

[blackjack60]

An article I came across recently here:

[quote]Bond

Edited by blackjack60, 01 December 2006 - 04:16 AM.

[darkpath]

An article I came across recently here:
I think a good deal of this article seems trumped up, and I'm eager to know what fellow board members think of it.

Yes... considerably.

[stamper]

Whoever wrote that piece of crap, should stop posing jews as victims. What about armenians, the first genocide of the 20th century, and still no official recognition (or punishement, for that matter) from Turkey ? Hitler used the armenian genocide as proof that you could get away with murder.
So instead of playing the eternals victims, perhaps those dumbos should rectify the real shortcomings of history first, and leave english writers alone.

[ComplimentsOfSharky]

Whoever wrote that piece of crap, should stop posing jews as victims. What about armenians, the first genocide of the 20th century, and still no official recognition (or punishement, for that matter) from Turkey ? Hitler used the armenian genocide as proof that you could get away with murder.
So instead of playing the eternals victims, perhaps those dumbos should rectify the real shortcomings of history first, and leave english writers alone.

Well they are a pretty persecuted people...going back to way before Hitler...

Anyway, I know what you're talking about Stamper, but what are the numbers? I don't know any off the top of my head.

And there are plenty more shortcomings than Armenia...the thing about the history of the world is it's pretty extensive. Jews are just more mainstream, everyone remembers the Holocaust so it's going to raise more eyebrows than "Fleming hated Armenians".

It's nothing more than an "expose" to get someone's name in lights so I wouldn't get too upset over it.

And obviously we can't punish Turkey - they're a Muslim nation, they're nice and peaceful and would never ever hurt anybody. Seriously though, it's not something you could seek punishment for given the passage of time. Government recognition is nice, I'll give you that.

[dg16443]

Dumbos? Who exactly are you referring to?


quote name='stamper' date='1 December 2006 - 09:35' post='660814']
Whoever wrote that piece of crap, should stop posing jews as victims. What about armenians, the first genocide of the 20th century, and still no official recognition (or punishement, for that matter) from Turkey ? Hitler used the armenian genocide as proof that you could get away with murder.
So instead of playing the eternals victims, perhaps those dumbos should rectify the real shortcomings of history first, and leave english writers alone.
[/quote]

[stamper]

I'm just saying, the writer should worry about more worldwide problems, than the implications in Ian Fleming writings.

[K1Bond007]

Heh.. this is trash. The writer is trying far too hard to come up with something incriminating and it's a really weak argument to begin with.

[YOLT]

Whoever wrote that piece of crap, should stop posing jews as victims. What about armenians, the first genocide of the 20th century, and still no official recognition (or punishement, for that matter) from Turkey ? Hitler used the armenian genocide as proof that you could get away with murder.
So instead of playing the eternals victims, perhaps those dumbos should rectify the real shortcomings of history first, and leave english writers alone.

Hold on hold on, now you are attacking the Turks. Than what about the Indians in South and North America ? Or the slave system in Africa ? The west is responsible from most of the crimes in the world. Stop being imperialistic.

[MarcAngeDraco]

The writer is trying far too hard to come up with something incriminating and it's a really weak argument to begin with.

Agreed.

[stamper]

Hey YOLT, your examples are as good as mine. Nothing against your country, just saying that there were and are bigger problems to waste time with, than reading between the lines of Ian Fleming. Which just shows how low the writer of the feature is.

[YOLT]

Whoever wrote that piece of crap, should stop posing jews as victims. What about armenians, the first genocide of the 20th century, and still no official recognition (or punishement, for that matter) from Turkey ? Hitler used the armenian genocide as proof that you could get away with murder.
So instead of playing the eternals victims, perhaps those dumbos should rectify the real shortcomings of history first, and leave english writers alone.

Well they are a pretty persecuted people...going back to way before Hitler...

Anyway, I know what you're talking about Stamper, but what are the numbers? I don't know any off the top of my head.

And there are plenty more shortcomings than Armenia...the thing about the history of the world is it's pretty extensive. Jews are just more mainstream, everyone remembers the Holocaust so it's going to raise more eyebrows than "Fleming hated Armenians".

It's nothing more than an "expose" to get someone's name in lights so I wouldn't get too upset over it.

And obviously we can't punish Turkey - they're a Muslim nation, they're nice and peaceful and would never ever hurt anybody. Seriously though, it's not something you could seek punishment for given the passage of time. Government recognition is nice, I'll give you that.

Thanks Compliments Of Sharky. Its good to hear good things from you. And people do forget but, Turkey is a and in a bigger amount was an ally of the West, a Nato member. After 9/11 a lot of things have changed I believe.

[Byron]

Whoever wrote that piece of crap, should stop posing jews as victims. What about armenians, the first genocide of the 20th century, and still no official recognition (or punishement, for that matter) from Turkey ? Hitler used the armenian genocide as proof that you could get away with murder.
So instead of playing the eternals victims, perhaps those dumbos should rectify the real shortcomings of history first, and leave english writers alone.

Hold on hold on, now you are attacking the Turks. Than what about the Indians in South and North America ? Or the slave system in Africa ? The west is responsible from most of the crimes in the world. Stop being imperialistic.

No offence meant but Turkey has some serious problems. I can give you a long list if you wish.

France officially just recognised the Armenian genocide by Turkey. More countries should take their lead.

[YOLT]

Whoever wrote that piece of crap, should stop posing jews as victims. What about armenians, the first genocide of the 20th century, and still no official recognition (or punishement, for that matter) from Turkey ? Hitler used the armenian genocide as proof that you could get away with murder.
So instead of playing the eternals victims, perhaps those dumbos should rectify the real shortcomings of history first, and leave english writers alone.

Hold on hold on, now you are attacking the Turks. Than what about the Indians in South and North America ? Or the slave system in Africa ? The west is responsible from most of the crimes in the world. Stop being imperialistic.

No offence meant but Turkey has some serious problems. I can give you a long list if you wish.

France officially just recognised the Armenian genocide by Turkey. More countries should take their lead.

Serious problems ? I am sure that our democracy is better than yours. Genocide means a systematic killing to destroy an ethnic community, which is not the case for Armenians. It was the WWI and we were at war with the Russians and the Armenians supported the Russians. It was a state of war, and both Armenians killed Turks and Turks killed Armenians.

We can talk about the Kurdish issue as well. I have no problems with it. But why dont we talk about the Indians and their culture in South and North America ? Who destroyed them, a whole continenet, millions of people? Isnt this a genocide ? Or what about the slave system ? And what about Iraq is it a better place now ? Who supported Usame Bin Laden in The Cold War ? What about Vietnam or the coupes in S. America ?

We can talk all about everything my friend.

[AgentPB]

Well i was reading Goldfinger for the first time last night. A line in it made a comment about jews and country clubs. I was a bit shocked and it did jolt me to the present. Made me think about all those country clubs that won't allow women to play! It takes me out of the mood when comments such as these are made. But hey it was the time this writing took place that made it so enjoyable.

[Major Tallon]

In The James Bond Dossier, Kingsley Amis commented that "there's no hint of anti-Semitism, and no feeling about color more intense than that, for instance, Chinese Negroes make good sinister minor-villain material. (They do, too.)"

Our sensibilities are different today, and we may cringe at parts of Fleming's writing, but the quoted passage indicates that a major 1960's literary figure didn't perceive any bigotry in the Bond books and bolsters the claim that Fleming didn't intend any.

[marktmurphy]

It's hardly explicit stuff and Fleming certainly wouldn't have meant anything aggressive by it. People had different attitudes fifty years ago; big deal. He was hardly accusing them of starting all of the wars ever and calling them 'sugar tits'!

[JB007YH]

I'm an orthodox jew and I never noticed any anti semetism in Flemings works. It was a different time back then and it seems as though the world has progressed.
Ps- never call me sugartits or i'll kill you!

Edited by JB007YH, 10 December 2006 - 09:56 PM.

[marktmurphy]

Ps- never call me sugartits or i'll kill you!

[Double-Oh-Zero]

It's hardly explicit stuff and Fleming certainly wouldn't have meant anything aggressive by it. People had different attitudes fifty years ago; big deal. He was hardly accusing them of starting all of the wars ever and calling them 'sugar tits'!

Quite.

But wasn't "Sugar Tits" one of Fleming's unused ideas for a Bond girl name?

I may have imagined this.

[Willowhugger]

To be perfectly crude about it. Ian Fleming wasn't Anti-Semite, he was Anti-Eastern European.

;-)

Fleming also had fears of negros and was against homosexuals. Oddly, Kingsley Amis' beliefs aside, Ian had nothing against Asians.

Edited by Willowhugger, 11 December 2006 - 01:41 AM.

[bond_girl_double07]

Trumped up article.. and stop calling me sugartits!

[triviachamp]

Fleming also had fears of negros and was against homosexuals.

Well according to some people Fleming was gay, so Bond is a gay fantasy then!

[Willowhugger]

Eh, there's plenty of good authors out there whom are gay. It'd hardly be a problem in my problem.

Though knowing what I do of Fleming's sexual history, I wish I was that gay....

[superado]

To be perfectly crude about it. Ian Fleming wasn't Anti-Semite, he was Anti-Eastern European.

;-)

Fleming also had fears of negros and was against homosexuals. Oddly, Kingsley Amis' beliefs aside, Ian had nothing against Asians.

Fleming did describe Bond's thoughts on Koreans (while sizing up OddJob for the first time) as a species below primates...or something like that. I wonder if this was due in part to the then recent Korean War.

[blackjack60]

Fleming also had fears of negros and was against homosexuals. Oddly, Kingsley Amis' beliefs aside, Ian had nothing against Asians.

Except for Koreans. I always wondered why Fleming had that particular animus. He says something about how cruel they were during WWII, but surely the Japanese were just as cruel (many Koreans would agree), and Fleming quite liked the Japanese.
I wouldn't say that Fleming had any fears of blacks. He was patronizing toward them, though he seems to have been ultimately affectionate in his attitudes. And he wasn't against homosexuals--if his feelings are the same as Bond's, he feels sory for them but has no time for them, and blames the whole mess on sex equality. It's amazing how Goldfinger seems to have more offensive passages in it than all the other Bond novels combined.
As for anti-semitism, I can't find any in the books. The article I quoted depends on outright distortion for many of its so-called points.

[Waffles, James Waffles.]

I wouldn't say that Fleming had any fears of blacks.

Bond for sure doesn't, and as a literary character, the characteristic could or could not be derived from the author. In Diamonds are Forever, in the chapter Acme Mud and Sulphur, I recall Bond thinking that he respects ( I don't remember exactly) blacks.

Anyway, as a Jew myself, this article is crap. Honestly. Ernst Stavro Blofeld has a semitic sounding name. So does my Biology teacher. If I wrote about a character with a semitic name, am I an anti-semite?

Also, the junk about pointing out Jewish characteristics and Goldfinger. I can recognize semitic characteristics in people, so why can't James Bond?

[J.C.D'Arc]

Hold on hold on, now you are attacking the Turks. Than what about the Indians in South and North America ? Or the slave system in Africa ? The west is responsible from most of the crimes in the world. Stop being imperialistic.

Ah. It's only okay to censure Western culture, then, is that it? There was never an Ottoman Turk Empire, eh? No on ever practiced slavery before the rise of Western culture, you would have us believe? How about human sacrifice, infant sacrifice, cannibalism, skinning people alive, burning them alive, drowning them, stoning them to death, crucifixion, mutilation? Personally, I know of no culture that can hold itself blameless. Including the West.

[YOLT]

Hold on hold on, now you are attacking the Turks. Than what about the Indians in South and North America ? Or the slave system in Africa ? The west is responsible from most of the crimes in the world. Stop being imperialistic.

Ah. It's only okay to censure Western culture, then, is that it? There was never an Ottoman Turk Empire, eh? No on ever practiced slavery before the rise of Western culture, you would have us believe? How about human sacrifice, infant sacrifice, cannibalism, skinning people alive, burning them alive, drowning them, stoning them to death, crucifixion, mutilation? Personally, I know of no culture that can hold itself blameless. Including the West.

Well ofcourse we have problems like every other nation has. But the concepts of "capitalism" and "imperialism" are related with the West. I am no enemy of the west, just dont blame the east the Muslim world etc. for some problems. We are all humans lets work for eternal peace.

[J.C.D'Arc]

...We are all humans lets work for eternal peace.

Agreed.

[RazorBlade]

Hold on hold on, now you are attacking the Turks. Than what about the Indians in South and North America ? Or the slave system in Africa ? The west is responsible from most of the crimes in the world. Stop being imperialistic.

Ah. It's only okay to censure Western culture, then, is that it? There was never an Ottoman Turk Empire, eh? No on ever practiced slavery before the rise of Western culture, you would have us believe? How about human sacrifice, infant sacrifice, cannibalism, skinning people alive, burning them alive, drowning them, stoning them to death, crucifixion, mutilation? Personally, I know of no culture that can hold itself blameless. Including the West.

Well ofcourse we have problems like every other nation has. But the concepts of "capitalism" and "imperialism" are related with the West. I am no enemy of the west, just dont blame the east the Muslim world etc. for some problems. We are all humans lets work for eternal peace.

Yes let's work for peace.

But capitalism and imperialism are related to the West? You mean they're our cousins? On a slighty more serious note, it's a strange idea that seems to be rooted in feeling victimized by the West. How can a culture that won and got everything it wanted, as the Muslim Turks did, feel victimized? Why should Europeans regret fighting back when Ottoman Turks came to invade their lands? The Armenians struggled for their identity for centuries and resisted being absorbed into the Turkish culture. Can you blame them for working with the Russians? May not have been the smartest thing to do or even the most moral but they wanted something for themselves as a people and as individuals that they weren't going to get from the Turks.

While we're at it, let's restore the Hagia Sophia to the Greek Church with apologies for destroying the art work when the Muslims took over.