15 replies to this topic

[pleiades1165]

I hope this thread is in the appropriate forum.

If Bond had saved Vesper, do you think he would have forgiven her? To me, it seemed like he (in the movie version at least) regretted her death more than her betrayal. His "bitch is dead" line seemed more like a coverup of his grief at the fact that he lost his chance at a normal life with her.

Variations of the next question I have has probably been discussed many times but I need a little clarification (CR has made me a new Bond fan!). In the book, Vesper kills herself because of her guilt at betraying Bond. In her last letter to him, she states that she fears SMERSH coming after her or losing Bond's love, after he finds out about her betrayal, which ultimately motivates her to kill herself before he stops loving her.

In the movie, you can see Bond's anger when he figures out Vesper is withdrawing the money and when the villain (I can't recall his name) threatens to kill her, Bond says, "Allow me." Unlike the book, Bond knows of her betrayal before her death and yet he still goes after her when the elevator plunges into the water. So my question is, why did Vesper have to kill herself? She gave the money to the guy in the weird glasses which would mean "The Organization" would have nothing to do with her anymore and although Bond seemed initially angry, he still wanted to save her.

Or should I just wait until the next movie to find out why?

[Bondfiend]

I guess, in this case, it was her guilt that drove her to it. As you say, she already handed the money over; the only reason I could think of is because she didn't want to live with the shame of betraying Bond or face him afterwards.

[ComplimentsOfSharky]

It was the heeeaaat of the moment....tellin' her what her heart meant...

I think it was still just the guilt and the fear that even if Bond forgave her...their relationship wouldn't really be the same. He'd forgive her, but not trust her again. Bond's initial anger foreshadows the conflict that he would've maintained.

With regard to the organization, I doubt that she would've been off the hook that easily, so I'm sure that played a part.

[sorking]

So my question is, why did Vesper have to kill herself? She gave the money to the guy in the weird glasses which would mean "The Organization" would have nothing to do with her anymore and although Bond seemed initially angry, he still wanted to save her.

Or should I just wait until the next movie to find out why?

As has been said, I think we're outside of the practical and into the emotional - and these actions are exactly why I dispute any suggestion that she never really loved Bond. (I know, I know, but I have heard it said...)

How could she ever return to the boyfriend - the man she worked to save out of compassion, I think, more than actual love - having fallen for Bond? And even once Bond's 'forgiven' her (at least enough to try to prevent her death), she's still faced with living forever knowing she utterly betrayed a man she loved.

I think it shows, for all her deception, just how pure of heart Vesper was. That no level of hope or forgiveness would ever have been enough for her to live with what she did.

Edited by sorking, 24 November 2006 - 04:21 PM.

[pleiades1165]

she's still faced with living forever knowing she utterly betrayed a man she loved.

But didn't M explain that Vesper promised the money to Mr. White in exchange for Bond's life? I can see how she betrayed the government that they both worked for and that Bond was seriously loyal to but it wasn't really a personal betrayal was it?

[PlayItBogart]

It was the heeeaaat of the moment....tellin' her what her heart meant...

Dear god, I want to make a montage of that sequence to that song now.

[sorking]

she's still faced with living forever knowing she utterly betrayed a man she loved.

But didn't M explain that Vesper promised the money to Mr. White in exchange for Bond's life? I can see how she betrayed the government that they both worked for and that Bond was seriously loyal to but it wasn't really a personal betrayal was it?

Yes - but I think you have to take practical, rational thought out of it - on both her side AND Bond's. At this point in his career he DOES take the job personally (that wonderful ordering of a martini, the powerful 'get the girl out' moment). James IS the job, and the fact that she tried to save him AFTER she'd been deceiving him, doesn't change the fact that she betrayed his trust.

These aren't people who separate 'job' and 'life'. (Though that is, of course, where 007 is headed...ironic, given that it will make him all work and NO life.) And when it's the life of a spy, where trust and betrayal are everywhere, how much must she hate herself for bringing that into their bed, their love? Especially because, as we see, she really hates the murderous, treacherous world of spies.

She becomes everything she hates.

Edited by sorking, 24 November 2006 - 04:23 PM.

[pleiades1165]

It was the heeeaaat of the moment....tellin' her what her heart meant...

I can't help but be reminded of The 40-Year Old Virgin.

Yes - but I think you have to take practical, rational thought out of it - on both her side AND Bond's. At this point in his career he DOES take the job personally (that wonderful ordering of a martini, the powerful 'get the girl out' moment). James IS the job, and the fact that she tried to save him AFTER she'd been deceiving him, doesn't change the fact that she betrayed his trust.

These aren't people who separate 'job' and 'life'. (Though that is, of course, where 007 is headed...ironic, given that it will make him all work and NO life.) And when it's the life of a spy, where trust and betrayal are everywhere. How much must she hate herself for bringing that into their bed, their love. Especially because, as we see, she really hates the murderous, treacherous world of spies.

She becomes everything she hates.

Thanks sorking (and everyone else who replied), that explanation actually cleared things up a bit in my mind

[stromberg]

Thread is in the correct forum, no problem with that.

But I edited the topic title, as it can be read outside the spoiler forums, and there are still people around here who haven't already seen the movie or read the book.

[ComplimentsOfSharky]

It was the heeeaaat of the moment....tellin' her what her heart meant...

I can't help but be reminded of The 40-Year Old Virgin.

I was thinking of The Matador myself.

[Mr Woodpigeon]

I hope this thread is in the appropriate forum.

If Bond had saved Vesper, do you think he would have forgiven her? To me, it seemed like he (in the movie version at least) regretted her death more than her betrayal. His "bitch is dead" line seemed more like a coverup of his grief at the fact that he lost his chance at a normal life with her.

Variations of the next question I have has probably been discussed many times but I need a little clarification (CR has made me a new Bond fan!). In the book, Vesper kills herself because of her guilt at betraying Bond. In her last letter to him, she states that she fears SMERSH coming after her or losing Bond's love, after he finds out about her betrayal, which ultimately motivates her to kill herself before he stops loving her.

In the movie, you can see Bond's anger when he figures out Vesper is withdrawing the money and when the villain (I can't recall his name) threatens to kill her, Bond says, "Allow me." Unlike the book, Bond knows of her betrayal before her death and yet he still goes after her when the elevator plunges into the water. So my question is, why did Vesper have to kill herself? She gave the money to the guy in the weird glasses which would mean "The Organization" would have nothing to do with her anymore and although Bond seemed initially angry, he still wanted to save her.

Or should I just wait until the next movie to find out why?

I think he would have slapped her around a bit, and then left her.

[A Kristatos]

I think he would have slapped her around a bit, and then left her.

That's a good theory. I think Bond is not the type of person to wish that someone dies unless there is a direct threat on his or someone else's life. So while I'm sure he thought Vesper was a snake for what she pulled (before M explains everything to him, of course), he certainly did not want her to die. But like you said Mr. Woodpigeon, I don't think Bond expected to remain good friends with her anymore either.

[Vauxhall]

There was originally a line in this scene where Bond said to Vesper locked in the lift, "stay there dear, you're the big picture", before going off to fight Gettler. I interpreted the scene as Bond wanting to get her out of the lift on both a professional level (to interrogate her) and on a personal level (bearing in mind the obvious love that he feels towards her). His grief is limited to him cradling her dead body, and by the next scene we see him dispassionately saying that "the bitch is dead". Bond suffers from a conflict between his personal and professional feelings.

[ckoch]

I know that eveyone has an interpreation for Bond's motives and feelings in this situation however I don't think we will ever really know. Even if some of it comes out further in Bond 22, I don't honestly believe that we will really be able to conclusively say what Bond would have done had he been able to rescue Vesper. Furthermore, we cannot really turn to the book either because of the way Vesper's death played out as written by Fleming. But not to discorage you from giving your thoughts on this topic. By all means. I certainly enjoy reading your views too.

[bill007]

I just returned from my 3rd viewing, and something I had missed before:

AFTER Bond tells M "The Bitch is dead" he THEN turns on Vesper's phone and reads the message "To James. Mr. White..."

Whether it was The Organization (penalty) or suicide (guilt) is a point for us to ponder

Current news/spoilers about Bond 22 indicate Vesper's lover (the Algerian) may be part of the plot-line. Come on November 7, 2008!!

[Qwerty]

Current news/spoilers about Bond 22 indicate Vesper's lover (the Algerian) may be part of the plot-line. Come on November 7, 2008!!

Indeed - http://commanderbond.net/article/3870