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Clarify a few things for me?


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#1 MystikTK

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Posted 24 November 2006 - 04:17 AM

As I said in my review, I've been very ill since about the end of the summer, so I only felt up to seeing the film tonight, as much as I've been waiting for it for the past 4 years. :)

Anyway, I just had to questions. The first is I guess the most detailed as it deals with Vesper's doubling. Actually, there were some details in Fleming's treatment of her situation that had me a little bewildered, as well, but this isn't the thread for that.

Basically, I was wondering about M's comment to Bond over the phone after Vesper's death where she tells Bond that Vesper had bargained with Le Chiffre to spare Bond's life in exchange for the money. However, this doesn't make much sense to me as Le Chiffre, by all indciations, had every intention of killing Bond wheter he talked or not. What say did Vesper have in the matter? Whether she was a double or not and Le Chiffre knew is besides the point. Perhaps it was just an allusion to the fact that she needed Bond alive in order to get his password and get the money to Le Chiffre (well, Gettler as it turned out)?

The second question I had was regarding Bond's ear piece which blew his cover prior to the stairwell fight. I unfortunately had to go the bathroom at the begiinign of the poker game, so besides missing one of the scenes I was most looking for ward to (the debut of Bond's martini), I also missed how Bond came about the ear piece. I assume Mathis gave it to him, but I'm not entirely sure.


Thanks. :P

#2 Pam Bouvier

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Posted 24 November 2006 - 04:20 AM

I think Vesper is bargaining with Mr. Whites people (SMERSH), not LeChiffre. I don't thnk LeChiffre knew she was a double (remember, he left her in the middle of the road).

#3 MystikTK

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Posted 24 November 2006 - 04:27 AM

I see your point, but wasn't that all part of the ploy? I mean, in the novel, she admitted to setting up the kidnapping and that Le Chiffre didn't hurt her because she was with MWD, who I guess would represent Mr. White's people in the film.

That said, you're saying that she was a double for White and not Le Chiffre? I always figured that Le Chiffre was a part of that organization, anyway, but you're saying he was just a hired gun (or a hired accountant might be more accurate)?

Anyway, even if it was White's people she was bargaining with, then that still means that M's comment makes little or no sense as M clainmed that she convinced Le Chiffre. Or perhaps I heard wrong and M's comment was general and could have been referring to White's people?

Damnit, I really need to see this movie again with a clearer head and perhaps without giving so much thought to the novel. :)

Edited by MystikTK, 24 November 2006 - 04:28 AM.


#4 Pam Bouvier

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Posted 24 November 2006 - 04:32 AM

You're not alone. I've only seen it the one time, so I could be remembering it incorrectly. I thought when "M" explained Vesper's lover, etc. at the end, she said something like, Vesper had tried to convince White, not LeChiffre, to spare hime, if she got him the $$.
Done anyone else remember whether "M" was talking about LeChiffre or White?

#5 Righty007

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Posted 24 November 2006 - 04:41 AM

The second question I had was regarding Bond's ear piece which blew his cover prior to the stairwell fight. I unfortunately had to go the bathroom at the begiinign of the poker game, so besides missing one of the scenes I was most looking for ward to (the debut of Bond's martini), I also missed how Bond came about the ear piece. I assume Mathis gave it to him, but I'm not entirely sure.

The ear piece was a receiver to a bug that Mathis gave Bond to put in Le Chiffre's inhaler.

#6 bill007

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Posted 24 November 2006 - 06:00 AM

For what its' worth, this is my take:Life from Vesper's point of view:

As M points out near the end, "The Organization" kidnapped Vesper's lover to force her to work for them. So it was Vesper who told Le Chiffre about Bond learning his 'tell.' Then she bargained (with what?) for Bond's life and went to the parking lot to re-insert the wire and discharge the defibrillator, much to Le Chiffre's dismay seeing Bond back at the table.

After Bond had lost his $10 Million, Vesper wouldn't allow Bond the 2nd buy-in at $5 Million because she wanted him gone. Alive, but safely gone.

Bond returns with CIA backing, and subsequently bankrupts Le Chiffre. Vesper's kidnapping was staged to get Bond away from the casino to some cozy place for torture.

Placing Vesper in road for Bond to run her over made Vesper expendable by that point in time, as she must have already given The Organization the bank account number and had told Le Chiffre about Bond's tracking implant.

When Le Chiffre learns that Bond is not going to tell him the password, The Organization (obviously listening near-by) decides to go in a different direction: Since Vesper wasn't roadkill, they eliminate Le Chiffre, and allow Vesper to work her charms.

While Bond recuperates, the password is given to the Swiss banker, and the money is transfered into Vespers separate account. But, wanting some sweet lovin' from Bond, she stalls and doesn't give The Organization the money straight away. Probably telling them she still needs to get the password from Bond.

The Organization eventually get tired, and send their man with the funny glasses. Vesper is forced to give up the money, and, as M puts it, "go to her death." But not before she leaves Bond a message on her phone: "For James. Mr. White....."

Since M doesn't tell us 'when' The Organization got to her, I can't help but wonder at what point she was turned. Could it be that in the shower sequence, Vesper was not as much shaken by the stairwell fight/killings, but rather by being forced to operate for The Organization? Or perhaps, she was 'dirty' from the first time we set eyes upon her on the Euro-train?

P.S. It is my humble opinion that Eva Green is more beautiful WITHOUT all that make up. When they are at the hotel dressing for the evening, that scene of her in the mirror applying make up shows just how utterly gorgeous she really is.

#7 SFKLR

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Posted 24 November 2006 - 09:42 PM

I've seen the movie twice now, never read the book. The Vesper backstory is vague in the film, but my take was like Wendy54's. My girlfriend had a different take, but this was mine:

1) Vesper was compromised by Mr. White's organization even before we meet her.

M's explanation to Bond about Vesper's kidnapped Algerian b/f included "We should have caught that" as if it was something in the past that could have been caught in the either the Treasury application process or in the review of her file to accompany MI6 on this assignment. We just don't know how long she was compromised or whether she had accomplished other tasks as a mole for Mr. White's organization in the recent past. It is possible and likely that she had a Mr. White-given task at Montenegro to withhold Bond's second buy-in (making it more likely LeChiffre won). She's an accountant, not a spy, and eliminating Bond's second chance is a powerful advantage--perhaps the most she had to offer them, and the one that could set her b/f free. Her crying in the shower is true shock of a non-spy over the murderous world she finds herself in.

White's organization wanted to help LeChiffre win the money back by handicapping Bond. They would have killed LeChiffre after the card game anyway (win or lose) as an embarrasment to their own credibility with their clients.

2) Still unclear whether Mathis was a baddie.

It could have been Vesper OR Mathis who relayed LeChiffe's "tell" to LeChiffre. M thinks the Vesper-as-baddie fact clears Mathis. Bond is correct when he says not necessarily. I expect we will see Mathis again in the next film as a guy who we can't quite tell is good or bad.

3) In the torture chamber, VEsper makes a deal with White to save Bond's life.

White eliminates the embarrasment of LeChiffre. ("It's not about the money so much as knowing who to trust.") White had accepted the fact that the money was lost for good. White saw that there was no way he (or LeChiffre, or anyone else) could get the password out of Bond by torture. HOWEVER, Mr. White won't turn down $120MM euro when Vesper tells him she can deliver it to him in exchange for Bond's life!

M was consoling Bond when she said it, but she was right: BOnd was spared by White because Vesper made the deal to save him. I don't think White cared one way or another about Bond. He was there for LeChiffre. Vesper had to know that her Algerian b/f was probably dead by now since LeChiffre lost the card game, and White was now about to kill her too. "I can get the password from him," she probably said. By now she had personal feelings for Bond and, from her experience, Vesper saw that White's organization could kill anyone, anywhere, at any time.

4) Vesper can't bear the guilt of betraying Bond's love.

She took off the necklace. Her mourning for her probably-dead Algerian boyfriend was surpassed by her love for Bond. That good-bye embrace at the hotel was awfully long if she was just going to see him again in 1/2 hour. Like M said, she probably knew she was going to die. That's why she left the note for Bond. She locked the elevator door and kissed Bond's hand lovingly goodbye. There was no escape: she knew she couldn't have Bond again after what she did. She was headed for life in prison anyway. And really, could any of us go on living w/o Bond?!!


I don't know. THat was my take. My g/f thought Vesper's Algerian b/f was kidnapped mid-film somewhere, revealed to her for the first time in the torture chamber, and that her motivations in getting the money were to save the Algerian b/f first and foremost. My g/f thinks Vesper was legit until the torture champber, and that White's group could not possibly have known that Vesper would be assigned to accompany Bond to the card game, and thus they had no motivation to kidnap her b/f until she became a central figure with access to the money. And she radically turned on the charm to Bond after they escape the torture--that's because she now had reason to. She has to do that to save her Algerian b/f.

But I can't accept that Vesper would or could bargain for Bond's life when they already had her motivated by her boyfreind's kidnapping, or that Mr. White would kidnap Vesper's b/f somewhere in the brief time after she gets assigned to the card game and before White sets out for LeChiffre and the torture chamber.

The debate will never be settled. (Unless we see what Haggis eliminated from the script!)

#8 wendy54

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Posted 24 November 2006 - 09:59 PM

Good explanation SFKLR. I had thought the same thing as your girlfriend at one point..and I suppose her explanation is plausible too. However, Eva Green has given several interviews and indicated that in the script, Vesper is truly in love with Bond, which makes it unlikely that she would have been bargaining for her Algerian boyfriend's life at that point...She does say that a lot will be explained in the next film....we will just have to wait a few years to find out!

#9 sorking

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Posted 24 November 2006 - 11:01 PM

Weird, I didn't think there was any confusion - Vesper's being controlled by White and his organisation, without LeChiffre's knowledge.

Doesn't the scene up-front include dialogue to the effect that while White is happy to make introductions, he doesn't vouch for LeChiffre? Implying that they know him, but that he doesn't directly belong to the same organisation.

It could have been Vesper OR Mathis who relayed LeChiffe's "tell" to LeChiffre. M thinks the Vesper-as-baddie fact clears Mathis. Bond is correct when he says not necessarily. I expect we will see Mathis again in the next film as a guy who we can't quite tell is good or bad.


If Mathis goes into hiding, it implies guilt. So he'll have to stay in the open. As M would surely imform the Bureau the risk of a mole in their midst, this may be something they have to deal with early. Pre-titles, anyone?

#10 MystikTK

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Posted 25 November 2006 - 03:34 AM

Thanks very much, everyone - some great explanations and my questions have pretty much been calrified as I had hoped. :)

Weird, I didn't think there was any confusion - Vesper's being controlled by White and his organisation, without LeChiffre's knowledge.

Doesn't the scene up-front include dialogue to the effect that while White is happy to make introductions, he doesn't vouch for LeChiffre? Implying that they know him, but that he doesn't directly belong to the same organisation.


I suppose it does, but the problem is that (and I suppose this contributed to my consfusion over certain scenes in the first place) is that I found the sound to be quite a bit muffled. Whether it was the sound system in the theatre or the actual film, I sometimes found the dialogue to be a little bit difficult to distinguish.

If Mathis goes into hiding, it implies guilt. So he'll have to stay in the open. As M would surely imform the Bureau the risk of a mole in their midst, this may be something they have to deal with early. Pre-titles, anyone?


As I said in the thread regarding Mathis' true colours, I would be extremely upset if EON took the liberty of turning Mathis into a villian. Fleming wrote him as one of Bond's most loyal allies (somewhat like a European Letier) and he has made several appearances in the literary world of 007. I simply can't see EON turning him of their own will.

Edited by MystikTK, 25 November 2006 - 03:38 AM.


#11 sorking

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Posted 25 November 2006 - 02:14 PM

As I said in the thread regarding Mathis' true colours, I would be extremely upset if EON took the liberty of turning Mathis into a villian. Fleming wrote him as one of Bond's most loyal allies (somewhat like a European Letier) and he has made several appearances in the literary world of 007. I simply can't see EON turning him of their own will.


Agreed. And maybe that's a potential 'new angle' for the start of the next film - hunting for proof of Mathis' guilt, only to discover there is none.

It's a terrible idea, but it makes me laugh to think that this could be achieved by starting the movie in a dark, locked room. Mr White is tied, naked, to a chair as Bond looms with a knotted rope. "You're going to tell me everything you know about Rene Mathis," he begins...

:)

#12 JWM

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 02:59 PM

i agree bill007 about the Miss green. She is more beautiful there then anywhere else in the film.

#13 bill007

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 06:22 PM

Seems Eva Green is letting out a little hint about Vesper's motivations, which may be revealed in Bond 22....

http://commanderbond.net/article/3870

(Edited for local link to info-bill007)

Edited by bill007, 27 November 2006 - 12:30 AM.


#14 bill007

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 06:41 PM

You see, it is all about the story isn't it? The plot, the characters, their motivations, and their loyalties. I would much rather be interested in these sort of discussions, as opposed to "Wow, wasn't that disappearing Aston Martin really cool?"

I just think that the studio has been absolutely ingenious with Casino Royale in telling Ian Felming's story, and leaving so much for us Bond-addicts to ponder about motivations on future plot lines.

Excellent thread MystikTK.

P.S. - I just returned from 3rd viewing: Vesper is wearing the necklace believed to have been given to her by her lover ("An Algerian Love Knot") when she first meets Bond on the Eurotrain. She was undoubtedly 'dirty' from the get-go.

Edited by bill007, 26 November 2006 - 11:41 PM.