24 replies to this topic

[OO16]

Hello, all. This is my first post here, and I guess I'm going by the name "16" (although I meant it to be "0016", but I guess I should have used "ohs" instead of "zeros." Ah, well.) Anyway, I'm fairly new to the literary bond, but love them. I have ready all of the Fleming novels except for the Octopussy/The Living Daylights in the last year, and I'll probably get through all of that before Thanksgiving.

So, forgive my possible ignorance, but does anyone ever say anything again about Kissy's baby, who she is pregnant with at the end of You Only Live Twice? I wonder if Fleming intended to leave a hanging thread, something he or one of his "heirs" could develop later if they so chose, or whether it was meant to simply be left hanging.

The thought crossed my mind because these sorts of books would be so much fun to write, and that would seem to be a very natural way to "modernize" a Bond-ish character. Getting rid of Kissy could make him an orphan, he's already half-Scot, and getting him to England is as simple as getting him onto a passing trawler. Anyway, just an idea. Was this ever developed?

I'm looking forward to reading more of the posts, and to joining the discussions.

And for those who haven't tried one, make a Vesper (I recommend Gordon's and Absolut). One of my favorite drinks, but powerful.

[David Schofield]

Hello, all. This is my first post here, and I guess I'm going by the name "16" (although I meant it to be "0016", but I guess I should have used "ohs" instead of "zeros." Ah, well.) Anyway, I'm fairly new to the literary bond, but love them. I have ready all of the Fleming novels except for the Octopussy/The Living Daylights in the last year, and I'll probably get through all of that before Thanksgiving.

So, forgive my possible ignorance, but does anyone ever say anything again about Kissy's baby, who she is pregnant with at the end of You Only Live Twice? I wonder if Fleming intended to leave a hanging thread, something he or one of his "heirs" could develop later if they so chose, or whether it was meant to simply be left hanging.

The thought crossed my mind because these sorts of books would be so much fun to write, and that would seem to be a very natural way to "modernize" a Bond-ish character. Getting rid of Kissy could make him an orphan, he's already half-Scot, and getting him to England is as simple as getting him onto a passing trawler. Anyway, just an idea. Was this ever developed?

I'm looking forward to reading more of the posts, and to joining the discussions.

And for those who haven't tried one, make a Vesper (I recommend Gordon's and Absolut). One of my favorite drinks, but powerful.

The "baby" is mentioned only in Pearson's "James Bond, the Authorised Biography" and Benson's short "Blast from the Past." The former contains little info and you should read the second for yourself.

Neither are Fleming so are down to the readers own inclination to include or not to in Bond's life story. Personally, I prefer the idea that Kissy lost the child.

[Loomis]

Hello, all. This is my first post here, and I guess I'm going by the name "16" (although I meant it to be "0016", but I guess I should have used "ohs" instead of "zeros." Ah, well.) Anyway, I'm fairly new to the literary bond, but love them. I have ready all of the Fleming novels except for the Octopussy/The Living Daylights in the last year, and I'll probably get through all of that before Thanksgiving.

So, forgive my possible ignorance, but does anyone ever say anything again about Kissy's baby, who she is pregnant with at the end of You Only Live Twice? I wonder if Fleming intended to leave a hanging thread, something he or one of his "heirs" could develop later if they so chose, or whether it was meant to simply be left hanging.

The thought crossed my mind because these sorts of books would be so much fun to write, and that would seem to be a very natural way to "modernize" a Bond-ish character. Getting rid of Kissy could make him an orphan, he's already half-Scot, and getting him to England is as simple as getting him onto a passing trawler. Anyway, just an idea. Was this ever developed?

I'm looking forward to reading more of the posts, and to joining the discussions.

And for those who haven't tried one, make a Vesper (I recommend Gordon's and Absolut). One of my favorite drinks, but powerful.

The "baby" is mentioned only in Pearson's "James Bond, the Authorised Biography" and Benson's short "Blast from the Past." The former contains little info and you should read the second for yourself.

Neither are Fleming so are down to the readers own inclination to include or not to in Bond's life story. Personally, I prefer the idea that Kissy lost the child.

I prefer the idea that the child was born and grew up and is still living an "ordinary" life, and a reasonably happy one (well, apart from, presumably, suffering the problems of being racially mixed in Japan).

Incidentally, I also subscribe to the view that Bond walked into captivity and execution in the Soviet Union, living on - living twice, if you like - only through the offspring he never even knew about.

Yes, yes, I know Fleming started THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN, but he didn't finish it, so for me YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE is where the true Flemmmmmmmming's Bond™ ends, and the ending is both sweet and sour.

[David Schofield]

The "baby" is mentioned only in Pearson's "James Bond, the Authorised Biography" and Benson's short "Blast from the Past." The former contains little info and you should read the second for yourself.

Neither are Fleming so are down to the readers own inclination to include or not to in Bond's life story. Personally, I prefer the idea that Kissy lost the child.

I prefer the idea that the child was born and grew up and is still living an "ordinary" life, and a reasonably happy one (well, apart from, presumably, suffering the problems of being racially mixed in Japan).

Incidentally, I also subscribe to the view that Bond walked into captivity and execution in the Soviet Union, living on - living twice, if you like - only through the offspring he never even knew about.

Yes, yes, I know Fleming started THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN, but he didn't finish it, so for me YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE is where the true Flemmmmmmmming's Bond™ ends, and the ending is both sweet and sour.

Loom, given your scenario, does the child know about Bond or not?

I get this great Hollywood idea of a 20 something Bond jr ending up in the USA via Hawaii (so he can be played by an American, of course) suddenly finding, embarrassingly at first, he can chuck knives and fire guns (you know, like Gena Davies in the Lond Kiss Goodnight), is interested in cool clothes and is a hit with girls, before a stiff, overdressed middle aged Brit turns up and tells him he's his father's son!

[Loomis]

Loom, given your scenario, does the child know about Bond or not?

Not really. I think Kissy would have dropped cryptic hints, but instead of saying "Your father was an elite agent of the British government", she'd have said something like "Your father was a warrior from overseas who came here to free us from another gaijin who was evil, end of".

Or maybe she'd have told him nothing at all, leaving him to conclude that he was the product of an immaculate conception and a divine being, and causing him to start a loopy religious cult along the lines of Aum. Very Benson, that.

Or perhaps "he" is a she, and, in a continuity-warping chain of events worthy of casting Judi Dench as M in Bond's first mission, grew up to be one of the Japanese citizens kidnapped by North Korea, where she eventually got a job as a torturer and ended up becoming.... Scorpion Girl!

[David Schofield]

Or perhaps "he" is a she, and, in a continuity-warping chain of events worthy of casting Judi Dench as M in Bond's first mission, grew up to be of the Japanese citizens kidnapped by North Korea, where she eventually got a job as a torturer and ended up becoming.... Scorpion Girl!

...and presumably she now knows Brozza-Bond is Daddy and all those whacks are for all the years of hurt?

You can almost feel the Freud. Brozza got to make the deep Bond he always wanted. Without knowing it.

[OO16]

Scorpion Girl? "Brozza-Bond"? Unless the latter refers to Brosnan, you've lost me a bit. New to the lingo, I guess.

I've seen a few references on this site to the idea that Fleming never finished TMWTGG, a book I really enjoyed, incidentally. Where I can find more about this idea? I'm just curious, but a line to a 007forever article was broken. I take it the theory is the Amis finished TMWTGG for Fleming?

[blackjack60]

I've seen a few references on this site to the idea that Fleming never finished TMWTGG, a book I really enjoyed, incidentally. Where I can find more about this idea? I'm just curious, but a line to a 007forever article was broken. I take it the theory is the Amis finished TMWTGG for Fleming?

That's the theory, but it's probably not correct. According to Fleming's second biographer, Andrew Lycett, Amis was called in to give his opinion about the novel and suggest revisions, but he didn't actually finish TMWTGG. Apparently Fleming really had finished the book, but he died before he could do his customary series of revisions. Lycett writes that Fleming completed the book in early March 1964, but grew increasingly dissatisfied with the book and delayed its publication in hope of reworking it the following spring. His friend William Plomer "disabused him of that idea, telling him that the novel was well up to standard." I think Plomer was absolutely wrong, and suspect I'm not alone in this, since after the assasination attempt on M, the book rapidly goes downhill.

Kingsley Amis, after having been asked to find out why the book was so "feeble," noted two demerits: Scaramanga was a thin character, and his hiring of Bond as a security man was silly, since he didn't know Bond and ultimately didn't even need him. Amis decided that the real reason Scaramanga hired Bond was because he was sexually attracted to him, but Fleming, having been savaged by the critics for the sexual atmosphere of his books, was persuaded by his "own prudence or that of a friend" to take out this element. William Plomer, who happened to be gay himself, dimissed this idea. Personally speaking, I think that Fleming had simply repeated one of the flaws of Goldfinger--in that book Goldfinger takes on Bond as his secretary, a move almost as dumb and pointless as Scaramanga's. But I have to admit that TMWTGG would certainly have been a far more interesting book if Fleming had made Scaramanga hot for Bond (and all that material Fleming included about gun/phallus theory and homosexuals not being able to whistle certainly prepares the reader to presume that Scaramanga might swing both ways). It's the sort of suggestion that ought to have been persued by the movies, but instead we got Christopher Lee in one of his most boring performances.

As for Bond's son: I'd like to think that Fleming would have returned to the subject in a later novel if he'd lived. However, the feebleness of TWTGG, combined with Fleming's protest that it was really the last Bond novel, suggests otherwise. I'd like to think that the boy grew up to be a local policeman, or perhaps a bounty hunter--something in a roughly similar line as his father, but a little seedier. Hell, perhaps even he became a Yakuza! That would be an interesting story to devise. As for the two authors who touch upon the kid, I recommend reading John Pearson's wonderful book and not bothering with Benson's.

Edited by blackjack60, 09 November 2006 - 04:46 PM.

[MkB]

As for Bond's son: I'd like to think that Fleming would have returned to the subject in a later novel if he'd lived. However, the feebleness of TWTGG, combined with Fleming's protest that it was really the last Bond novel, suggests otherwise. I'd like to think that the boy grew up to be a local policeman, or perhaps a bounty hunter--something in a roughly similar line as his father, but a little seedier. Hell, perhaps even he became a Yakuza! That would be an interesting story to devise.

Personnaly, I'd like to think that the child, boy or girl, lived a peasible life, back to nature, the life of a fisher(wo)man on a small Island. There are numerous hints in Fleming books that Bond admires people living according to Mother Nature. Think about Honeychile Rider in Dr No, for instance. His offspring living this wild life would better suit me than he/her being a second-class policeman supervising local traffic in Tokyo jam (still, the idea of Bond's daughter as Scorpion Girl is undoubtedly interesting :-)

[OmarB]

I know the kid shows up in a Benson book but I'm almost sure he shows up or at least is mentioned in Gardner's run.

[MHazard]

Perhaps his son ended up working for Tiger Tanaka.

[Judo chop]

I

[Mister Asterix]

Hello, all. This is my first post here, and I guess I'm going by the name "16" (although I meant it to be "0016", but I guess I should have used "ohs" instead of "zeros." Ah, well.)

[mra]I

[Daddy Bond]

Hello, all. This is my first post here, and I guess I'm going by the name "16" (although I meant it to be "0016", but I guess I should have used "ohs" instead of "zeros." Ah, well.) Anyway, I'm fairly new to the literary bond, but love them. I have ready all of the Fleming novels except for the Octopussy/The Living Daylights in the last year, and I'll probably get through all of that before Thanksgiving.

So, forgive my possible ignorance, but does anyone ever say anything again about Kissy's baby, who she is pregnant with at the end of You Only Live Twice? I wonder if Fleming intended to leave a hanging thread, something he or one of his "heirs" could develop later if they so chose, or whether it was meant to simply be left hanging.

The thought crossed my mind because these sorts of books would be so much fun to write, and that would seem to be a very natural way to "modernize" a Bond-ish character. Getting rid of Kissy could make him an orphan, he's already half-Scot, and getting him to England is as simple as getting him onto a passing trawler. Anyway, just an idea. Was this ever developed?

I'm looking forward to reading more of the posts, and to joining the discussions.

And for those who haven't tried one, make a Vesper (I recommend Gordon's and Absolut). One of my favorite drinks, but powerful.

The "baby" is mentioned only in Pearson's "James Bond, the Authorised Biography" and Benson's short "Blast from the Past." The former contains little info and you should read the second for yourself.

Neither are Fleming so are down to the readers own inclination to include or not to in Bond's life story. Personally, I prefer the idea that Kissy lost the child.

Man, that's really, really tragic. Why would you prefer to imagine such?

[MkB]

Man, that's really, really tragic. Why would you prefer to imagine such?

Well, it's not my opinion, but I can understand it. Having a child growing up somewhere means that Bond is "growing up" too, and getting old. And Bond is a non-ageing character (at least the Bond from the movies, it's less true in the novel, cf. a recent discussion in the hread about TMWTGG in the Blades' Library)

And anyway, it's only a story, so tragic things can be cool in a way (as for Bond being a widower for instance).

[zencat]

I know the kid shows up in a Benson book but I'm almost sure he shows up or at least is mentioned in Gardner's run.

I don't believe he's ever mentioned in Gardner. But, yes, he's the catalyst of Benson's short story Blast From The Past. I asked Raymond about this in CBn Interview:

Spoiler

Q. James Bond’s son, James Suzuki, could have been a franchise character all his own. Did Glidrose — or EON — give you any flack about killing him off?

RB. The thing is that any offspring of Bond couldn’t be used. EON had bought all the rights to “any offspring” so that they could do James Bond Jr. That’s why John Gardner never used Kissy Suzuki’s son. However, I was dying to do it. I’d been dying to have a story explaining what happened to the son since I first read You Only Live Twice. John Pearson mentioned him in his fictional biography, which is where I got the name “James Suzuki.” I kept it. Anyway, after consulting with Peter at Glidrose, we figured out that the only way I could write about the character was if he was dead! You’ll note that the story is about James Suzuki, but he never really appears (not alive, anyway)! I never got any flack from EON. I don’t think they really cared.

Welcome to CBn, OO16.

[Hitch]

In no particular order:

Bond's daughter is DAD's Scorpion girl? CBn is a twisted place. I would have loved to see Fleming write that little scenario.

If Fleming had been healthier, I think he might have explored Scaramanga's sexuality and Bond's response to it. The writer in him couldn't have resisted it, especially as he experimented with form and character in order to keep himself interested when writing Bond.

As for Bond's child making an appearance in any future novels: a ransom note delivered to a flat just off the King's Road would make a decent start to a mythical new Fleming.

"But I don't have a son..."

[David Schofield]

Man, that's really, really tragic. Why would you prefer to imagine such?

Well, it's not my opinion, but I can understand it. Having a child growing up somewhere means that Bond is "growing up" too, and getting old. And Bond is a non-ageing character (at least the Bond from the movies, it's less true in the novel, cf. a recent discussion in the hread about TMWTGG in the Blades' Library)

And anyway, it's only a story, so tragic things can be cool in a way (as for Bond being a widower for instance).

That basically summarises my reasons regarding kissy losing the baby.

Essentially, Bond is a single, selfish man. The notion that he knowlingly has a child "somewhere out there" just doesn't fit. Pearson even tries some mawkish attempt at suggesting Bond carries a picture of the boy and has visited him in Japan. Now this just isn't enough: if you are a father you want more, surely, than that in a relationship with your child (Benson makes the relationship even more distant). I should add at this point I have two children of my own and wouldn't part with them for the world. However, James Bond is a ruthless loner, an assassin. For me, he cannot be a father.

And of course, the time scale does play a part. In all reasonableness, Bond ages perhaps 15 years between CR, through Amis and Gardner, and to the end of Benson. Giving Bond an early twentysomething son in "Blast from the Past", assuming Bond is, say, 40 ish in YOLT (Higson would make him 43), then Bond by the start of Benson's tensure is in his early to mid 60s at best. And I can't see a man of that age doing the Bondian things he has to.

No, both from an emotional and practical point of view, Bond's son is an unnecessary and unsatisfactory confusion.

Now if Mr Faulks wants to start "Devil May Care" with a widowed Bond being called back from Japan where he is trying to live a family life with Kissy and his son, I would read it...

[Scrambled Eggs]

As for Bond's child making an appearance in any future novels: a ransom note delivered to a flat just off the King's Road would make a decent start to a mythical new Fleming.

"But I don't have a son..."

Go on, you know you want to.

[MHazard]

Maybe you'll have to.

[Hitch]

As for Bond's child making an appearance in any future novels: a ransom note delivered to a flat just off the King's Road would make a decent start to a mythical new Fleming.

"But I don't have a son..."

Go on, you know you want to.

On reflection, I find it's best to keep relatives at arm's length. I'm sure Bond fans feel the same.

[Revelator]

While discussing the topic of whatever became of Bond and Kissy's child on another forum, I tried answering the question at length. So here's my version...

 

I like to think that Kissy had a boy who enjoyed a happy childhood among the Ama, though he must have missed his father, described by Kissy as a brave foreign policeman who killed the wickedest foreign dragon in Japan and converted the garden of death into an eden. Eventually the boy (named Taro after his father) left his hometown and, propelled by an innate sense of justice, became a local policeman. Despite the community's initial unease at his mixed-race status, the young man became accepted and well-liked, and though his district was small and provincial he occasionally handled an interesting case.
The most exciting one involved the capture of a foreign criminal, and Taro's had the task of assisting a foreign policeman sent from England. The gray-haired but still handsome foreigner told Taro that he was semi-retired but employed by his country on occasional missions. He and Taro worked together for only a day, but they got along extremely well and after wrapping up the short case they enjoyed dinner and sake. As he got up to leave, the foreigner explained that before he leaving Japan he wanted to travel south to see some Ama girls. Taro thought the foreigner was joking, so he didn't bother saying his mother had once been an Ama girl, though she'd retired to Fukuoka several years ago. The two men said goodbye, shook hands, and never saw each other again. Had James Bond known he'd left Kissy with child, he might have put two and two together. Had Taro Suzuki known his father's real name, he might have done likewise. But all these things were, in the words of the late Tiger Tanaka, no more important than sparrow's tears...

[Major Tallon]

I'd seen your extrapolation at that other place, Revelator, and I enjoyed it then.  Still do.  I very much like the idea that Bond and the boy crossed paths without ever recognizing their relationship.  In that context, the final reference to sparrow's tears is extremely touching.  It's all rather brilliant.

[Dustin]

Interesting take on it; I must say that despite being a Bond fan for close to 40 years I have actually thought of Kissy's child only very few times. It's almost as if it disappeared together with its mother in the fog of Bond history, the place where Bond's women and casual affairs go to become, well, memories. I didn't even wonder if it's a boy or girl, strange.

I like this crossing of their paths without either man realising the significance of the encounter, nifty twist. Could perhaps even work inside a longer novel that doesn't centre on Bond, tells the story from his son's perspective and introduces the tall old foreigner helping Taro only later in the plot.

What for me didn't work at all was Benson's approach in BLAST FROM THE PAST to have Taro/James basically growing up on remote under Bond's loose supervision. I just can't picture that relationship, it's completely lost at me. Not sure if Benson himself was happy with it, after all his first action was to kill Bond's son. I think it might have been more effective if Bond had received some video footage showing a stranger being tortured, with a blood sample and a note 'Your own flesh and blood' and the order to wait for further instructions.

Edited by Dustin, 14 November 2013 - 10:34 PM.

[Revelator]

Thank for the very kind words Major. Were I tasked with writing the final Bond story, I would probably go with that scenario. What's your own take on the fate of Bond's child?

 

Dustin: I didn't like Benson's either. A novel from Taro's perspective is a wonderful idea!

 

Whatever fate Bond's child enjoyed was likely happier than that of Fleming's own son. At least Caspar is now at peace.

Edited by Revelator, 14 November 2013 - 11:54 PM.