33 replies to this topic

[BlackFelix]

For several weeks now there has been a small controversy about "Superman Returns" and the lack of Superman's catch-phrase "truth, justice, and the American way". Some feel it's a rude-slap in the face of everything the character stands for, while others feel as though this is the direction the character needs to move into. While it's no big secret that "Superman" director, Bryan Singer, is a open homosexual and anti-Bush administration. Could this be his attempt to dilute the character with overtones of his own personal/political views?

Personally, speaking as a huger Superman fan, I feel Singer has every right to interput the mythos of Superman in any way he sees fit. However this does not give him the license to morph the fibers of the character into something better suited to fit his own personal angenda's and causes. Superman since his inception has been based upon the principal of the American way, which has always been for truth and justice, or in other words freedom and choice. Bryan Singer has done a terrific job in making the film and I would reccomend it to most anyone who's a fan of the genre or a just a casual movie-goer, but changing fundemental basing for the character is not only sending the wrong message about who this character is, it's also a slap in the face to the creators.

Superman exists in a fantasy world that is largely a entity in of itself and should be treated as such. Superman stands for the rights of all people, Black or White, Man and Women. Hollywood should learn to stop trying to inject it's political rhetoric into long standing American lore. James Bond stands for "Queen and Country" not for "Country and all that Royal stuff"..the same principal should be placed on Superman.

[Righty007]

I was mad when Perry said something like "truth, justice, and all that stuff" in Superman Returns.

[Loomis]

Agreed with both of you (and I'm not American, BTW). This is political correctness gone mad. If the intention was partly to avoid "offending" non-US viewers, let me assure you that this particular non-US viewer would not have been offended by Superman claiming to fight for the American way, but feels his intelligence insulted by the changing of the line. Ridiculous. How about if, in GOLDENEYE, instead of the "For England, James"/"For England, Alec" exchange, we'd had "For our employers" or some such twaddle?

Incidentally, re: Singer's "lifestyle" and politics, it is possible to be "anti-Bush administration" and a patriotic American/an overseas admirer of America, no?

[Number 6]

Altering the catchphrase sort of ticked me off as well... It's always been part of Superman's moniker so to speak...

[Tanger]

I think what they tried to show in this film and in some of the earlier ones though was that Superman was a Worldwide superhero. Helping out absoutely anyone in need rather than just Americans. Thus, it makes sense that they would do away with the "American way" part.

After all, Jor-El did send young Kal-El to help the planet rather than just one country.

[zencat]

I'm all for it. Superman was given to the people of Earth, not America.

Besides, in the movie, Superman doesn't say this, Perry White does. So blame the media.

[doublenoughtspy]

Altering the catchphrase sort of ticked me off as well... It's always been part of Superman's moniker so to speak...

No it hasn't.

On the Superman radio show, it was just truth and justice.

In the Filmation cartoon, it was truth, justice, and freedom.

While I miss the American Way bit, it does have a different connotation today than the chest beating, anti-commie era that the George Reeves series, where the phrase originated was set.

But it does seem like previous incarnations where much more focused on America.

[Harmsway]

Agreed with both of you (and I'm not American, BTW). This is political correctness gone mad. If the intention was partly to avoid "offending" non-US viewers, let me assure you that this particular non-US viewer would not have been offended by Superman claiming to fight for the American way, but feels his intelligence insulted by the changing of the line. Ridiculous. How about if, in GOLDENEYE, instead of the "For England, James"/"For England, Alec" exchange, we'd had "For our employers" or some such twaddle?

Exactly. It irks me that that line would be changed - it's part of who that character is. The character was created out of the depression era in the USA - he is forever connected to it.

Incidentally, re: Singer's "lifestyle" and politics, it is possible to be "anti-Bush administration" and a patriotic American/an overseas admirer of America, no?

Yes, it is.

[TheSaint]

Doublenought beat me to it-I was going to say what he said. I will bring up that, in Superman:The Movie Lois asks Superman why he's here. He replies that he's here to fight for truth, justice, and the American way. The audience laughs at this, and Lois responds that he will have to go after every elected official so, I don't mind the omission.

[BlackFelix]

Though some have said the line is out of place now, and Superman(ala kal-el) is a defender of the world. Though that may be true indeed, let's not forget the essence of Superman (ala Clark Kent) morals are directly in-line with his upbrinig in the heartland of America, Smallville, Kansas! That is the touchstone of the Clark Kent/Superman character that has kept him, as others refer to, a "overgrown" boyscout. Clark too often gets lost in the shuffle of ther persona of Superman, Clark is treated as a waiting pool until the apperence of Superman...that characterization is wrong! Clark is just as important to the character as Superman is, but that's another battle! What is important moreover is that American views and values have been deeply enriched in the psyche of Clark Kent and of course would also manifest itself inside Superman.

This is BlackFelix's Brother:

I think it's important to remember that Superman is, for all that he has become, and American icon, just like James Bond is a British icon! And what writers and director's tend to do is brush over that fact in order to not offend any foreign audience. He was created to stand for Truth, Justice and the American way! and who know's better, Hollywood or Shuster and Siegel?

[Number 6]

Though some have said the line is out of place now, and Superman(ala kal-el) is a defender of the world. Though that may be true indeed, let's not forget the essence of Superman (ala Clark Kent) morals are directly in-line with his upbrinig in the heartland of America, Smallville, Kansas! That is the touchstone of the Clark Kent/Superman character that has kept him, as others refer to, a "overgrown" boyscout. Clark too often gets lost in the shuffle of ther persona of Superman, Clark is treated as a waiting pool until the apperence of Superman...that characterization is wrong! Clark is just as important to the character as Superman is, but that's another battle! What is important moreover is that American views and values have been deeply enriched in the psyche of Clark Kent and of course would also manifest itself inside Superman.

This is BlackFelix's Brother:

I think it's important to remember that Superman is, for all that he has become, and American icon, just like James Bond is a British icon! And what writers and director's tend to do is brush over that fact in order to not offend any foreign audience. He was created to stand for Truth, Justice and the American way! and who know's better, Hollywood or Shuster and Siegel?

*golfclap*

[Tarl_Cabot]

It's a cheesy line. Good riddance. Besides, Supes is really following his father's agenda of being a "light to show them the way"...

[Ry]

After recently seeing Superman Returns I believe the direction of the film is completely right and the line "all that stuff" is being blown way out of proportion. Superman is sent to earth and happens to be raised in Kansas. Does he still stand for the American Way? Of course he does and yes that is important, but he is the symbol of freedom for all humankind not just America. It is silly for us to think that in this day in age that Superman can't be a representative for everyone. I think Singer's attempt on his return is quite good. We all need a cinematic savior from Kansas to the UK to Singapore. Superman is for everyone.

[TheSaint]

This is BlackFelix's Brother:

I think it's important to remember that Superman is, for all that he has become, and American icon, just like James Bond is a British icon! And what writers and director's tend to do is brush over that fact in order to not offend any foreign audience. He was created to stand for Truth, Justice and the American way! and who know's better, Hollywood or Shuster and Siegel?

I hate to point this out but, Siegel & Shuster didn't come up with the "and the American way" line. That was added in the George Reeves tv series which, unfortunately, they had nothing to do with. They created Superman to stand for truth & justice, period.

[TortillaFactory]

just like James Bond is a British icon!

Yet he fights for the world, and Britain is mentioned only in a perfunctory manner. Bond is a secret agent who happens to be from Britain, but he belongs to the world. You'll never see him posing with the Union Jack (or St. George's Cross, for that matter). I'm not sure the same could be said of Superman; anyway, it's not the best analogy.

I think removing "the American way" is needlessly conspicuous, though. Whether it was originally there or not, cutting out such a prominent part of the ever-evolving Superman legend does reek of revisionism. There's nothing in the American way that we need be ashamed of - whether or not we've always lived up to that ideal is open to interpretation, however.

[Loomis]

just like James Bond is a British icon!

Yet he fights for the world, and Britain is mentioned only in a perfunctory manner. Bond is a secret agent who happens to be from Britain, but he belongs to the world. You'll never see him posing with the Union Jack (or St. George's Cross, for that matter).

Well, there's the beginning of and opening credits of THE SPY WHO LOVED ME, of course, although that's clearly tongue-in-cheek. Still, I'd disagree that Bond "belongs to the world", other than in the very general sense that anything whatsoever may be said to belong to the world (e.g. "Satyajit Ray may have been an Indian filmmaker, but his art belongs to the world"). There's plenty of patriotic bluster in Fleming, and in the continuation novels and films Bond tends to "belong" just to the UK and - via secondment - US.

[Jim]

just like James Bond is a British icon!

Yet he fights for the world, and Britain is mentioned only in a perfunctory manner. Bond is a secret agent who happens to be from Britain, but he belongs to the world. You'll never see him posing with the Union Jack (or St. George's Cross, for that matter). I'm not sure the same could be said of Superman; anyway, it's not the best analogy.

Uh? All that "For England" rubbish?
That he is employed by the British government?
That Tomorrow Never Dies had to pretend Britain was some sort of military superpower to be able to shoehorn a Bond story out of it?

Fair enough - he may end up fighting for the good of the world or not evidently British interests alone, but he invariably starts off seeking to preserve something for the British government (although, granted, in the film of You Only Live Twice (and for that matter, Moonraker) this is more about saving face than anything else).

[Skudor]

I think Superman Returns was corny enough, no need to add more to it...

[Byron]

I think Superman Returns was corny enough, no need to add more to it...

Agreed. What is the American way anyway? Greed, corruption, invading other countries under false pretenses or supporting a certain racist regime in the Middle East?

This was a stupid jingoistic line used during the cold war to placate the flagwavers.

If this line was uttered today you'd get people around the world walking out or throwing things at the screen, or worse.

Edited by Byron, 18 July 2006 - 12:11 PM.

[Jim]

Doucement, my lovelies, doucement.

[Bon-san]

I think Superman Returns was corny enough, no need to add more to it...

Agreed. What is the American way anyway? Greed, corruption, invading other countries under false pretenses or supporting a certain racist regime in the Middle East?

This was a stupid jingoistic line used during the cold war to placate the flagwavers.

If this line was uttered today you'd get people around the world walking out or throwing things at the screen, or worse.

I'm as critical of the executive and congressional branches of the American government as just about anyone I know. But I find myself offended by the sweeping generalisation, and clear hostility inherent in your post.

In any event, the upset over the dialogue in 'Superman Returns' seems a wee bit overblown. Revisionism of a catchphrase that was itself revisionist is just the way of things, non?

[Byron]

But I find myself offended by the sweeping generalisation, and clear hostility inherent in your post.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Clearly you are a one of those decent Americans. But hey Bush is president because more people voted for him. What does that say?

[Bon-san]

But I find myself offended by the sweeping generalisation, and clear hostility inherent in your post.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Clearly you are a one of those decent Americans. But hey Bush is president because more people voted for him. What does that say?

Here, I could set off on a lengthy diatribe, but out of deference to the those on the board who may have contrary views, I'll instead note that John Dean (a self-described "Goldwater conservative") has a new book out entitled "Conservatives Without Conscience". It might be right up your alley.

BTW, don't know how decent I am. But I'm not real happy with the way things are going on the national politics front. It should be noted that I have not been real happy with the way things are going on the national politics front for several decades.

Now, back on topic.

[Loomis]

What is the American way anyway?

Well, in the context of a comic book popcorn fun-for-all-the-family summer movie, it's truth and justice and all that jazz, and nothing worth fussing over, just as, in the world of the Bonds, everything the British government does is right and proper and the baddies always get their just desserts. I think it's a harmless line and don't see how anyone could take any offence to it. If someone's that prickly and "serious-minded", he has no business watching a Superman flick in the first place.

[hcmv007]

As a Superman fan, and an individual who leans to the political right, I could have cared less that the American Way was not a line in the film. I just wanted to be entertained for a few good hours so I can for once get my mind off politics, war, and the lack of female companionship that is my life. What irks me is people trying to put thier own political intrpretaions into films. They did it last year w/ Episode 3 and are doing it this year for Superman. BTW-Siegle and Shuster had a very dark, almost brutal Superman who beat wife beaters and trapped corrupt mine owners in thier own mines. For my review of SR, just check out the section on this site, or on daltonwendy.com.

[TortillaFactory]

Uh? All that "For England" rubbish?
That he is employed by the British government?
That Tomorrow Never Dies had to pretend Britain was some sort of military superpower to be able to shoehorn a Bond story out of it?

I recall two uses for "for England" (but I've never been much of a film!Bond buff anyway), one satirical, and one denied ("no, for me"). Yes, he's employed by the British government, but 99% percent of the time he's a) not in England, and b ) saving the world, not Trafalgar Square. A conspicuous feature of the Superman films that I recall (I, II, and IV) was that most of the menace seemed to be occuring only in the States. The villain himself is American. Rather than merely being employed by the American government, Supes actually chooses to serve the U.S. Granted, IV got away from that a bit with all the nuclear weapon nonsense, but my point stands.

[Don't get me started on the comic books, where half the time Supes was just being used as U.S. propoganda. "Slap a Jap, buy war bonds"? Find me one instance of Bond being used in such a way, and we can talk about the parallels between the two. Ultimately my point is that Bond and Superman can't really be compared, not as cultural icons, anyway.]

Don't particularly care about the line one way or the other, but I do wonder why it had to be so conspicuously removed.

[doublenoughtspy]

[[Don't get me started on the comic books, where half the time Supes was just being used as U.S. propoganda. "Slap a Jap, buy war bonds"? Find me one instance of Bond being used in such a way, and we can talk about the parallels between the two. Ultimately my point is that Bond and Superman can't really be compared, not as cultural icons, anyway.]

Bond has been used as a propoganda tool by the British government.

In the mid 60s there was a poster done by the labour ministry which showed Bond on the laser table from Goldfinger. It's headline was "007 is paid to take risks. You are not." How about that for brightening up the break room?

The other instance is more recent - the Royal Navy used the Bond silouette image for recruiting purposes in the late 90s, circa TND era. The ad talked about how Bond was trained by the Royal Navy.

So TF, that is 2 I am aware of off the top of my head. I'm sure there are others.

[Mister Asterix]

[mra]If we can go the entire Moore era without Bond saying

[TortillaFactory]

[quote]In the mid 60s there was a poster done by the labour ministry which showed Bond on the laser table from Goldfinger. It's headline was "007 is paid to take risks. You are not." How about that for brightening up the break room?

The other instance is more recent - the Royal Navy used the Bond silouette image for recruiting purposes in the late 90s, circa TND era. The ad talked about how Bond was trained by the Royal Navy.[/quote]

I'm not surprised, but that's hardly tanamount to the dozens of comic book covers showing Superman riding a rocket, punching a grotesquely drawn Japanese soldier or Hitler lookalike in the mouth. (Why yes, I do waste too much time on Superdickery. How'd you guess?)

My point is simply that Bond is not identified with England as strongly as Superman is identified with America. This is, of course, a matter of opinion, but I think it's a reasonable assumption.

[quote]Personally I don

[doublenoughtspy]

While I agree with your premise (that Bond is not identified with England the way Superman is with America), I don't understand your example.

Superman was hardly alone with the racist depictions on covers from WW2 - heck even Bugs Bunny got into the act with Bugs Bunny Nips the Nips.

Bond is a post-war character and so no, you won't find any jingoistic covers of him fighting Hitler, but what about Bond's first comic appearance in the British Classics Illustrated?

In 1963 the comic ran unaltered in the UK & Europe - but for the American market they took out all the derogatory references to skin color and race - deemed too offensive.

So yes, Bond too has had his run ins with buck-toothed Asians and fat-lipped negroes in the comics.