49 replies to this topic

[Blue Eyes]

Now before I start, is it 007 that is the number next to 9 twice or is it the letter net to I twice? I can never clear that damn thing up.

Now, where did Fleming get 007? I've read the bus route theory and the Francis Bacon theory (http://www.sirbacon....dblohseven.html) but I'd like to know does anyone have the definitive answer!?

[scaramanga]

Another suggestion I've heard of (and the most logical IMO) as to where Fleming got the number 007 from, is when he used to work for Naval Intelligence during the War. All top secret messages had the '00' prefix to designate that they were top secret.
As for the 7, who knows? Although the number seven is considered to be a special number for some reason.

[Mister Asterix]

I stand semi-corrected. As I recall M used the "promotion" to 7777 as way to temporarily strip Bond of his Double-O status without offending him and causing him to retire.

[Vargas]

Makes you wonder why he's not called Double Zero Seven.
It just doesn't sound right, though, does it?[/quote]

Tiger Tanaka called him 'zero-zero' in the YOLT film.
'Zero' and 'naught' are the numerical whereas 'O'
is the literal so that throws the whole thing up again. You definitely don't say double-nought-seven!

[Jacques Nexus]

In FRWL, Grant called Connery's Bond "Oh Oh seven". Therefore in the novels I don't think it was meant to be zero zero seven.

[Jacques Nexus]

Mister Asterix (09 Oct, 2001 10:07 p.m.):
I stand semi-corrected. As I recall M used the "promotion" to 7777 as way to temporarily strip Bond of his Double-O status without offending him and causing him to retire.

That's right...he promoted 007 to the Diplomatic Section of SIS (whatever that is) and sent him off to Japan to try and convince Tiger Tanaka to share the fruits of the MAGIC 44 decoding machine with SIS.

[White Persian]

Blue Eyes (02 Oct, 2001 06:30 a.m.):
Now before I start, is it 007 that is the number next to 9 twice or is it the letter net to I twice? I can never clear that damn thing up.

Fleming speaks of "double o" (the letter), but its worth noting that in the 50s and 60s it was colloquial English, in Britain and Australia, to refer to "zero" as "o" in phone numbers, addresses, the time, dates etc.
Zero was used by mathematicians and scientists.
The use of zero in everyday speech was more common in America, and has now become much more common usage worldwide.
In short then, even reference to Fleming doesn't completely clear up the ambiguity.

[freemo]

I'm pretty sure he was promoted in YOLT, and was confused about it becuase he bungled up his last two assignments. If Bond got demoted then he would have quit. I could be wrong, ofcourse.

[freemo]

Its Zero Zero Seven. I think theres some confusion because the font in the old books makes the zeros look similar to O for Orange. But if you compare "007" with the page numbers and text, its clearly Zero Zero Seven. Also Remember in YOLT Bond gets promoted to a number that has four digits, 7777, so he went from three digits to four.'

As where he go the number, its from Rudyard Kipling short story about a train that bears the number "007". The story can be found in Kipling short story collection 'The Day's Work' (1898.)

[Blue Eyes]

Thanks for the Freemo. Bond got promoted hey! You know I can not land my hands on YOLT by Fleming. But believe me, I am trying!! Though I'm glad somewhere along the way he seems to have been demoted to 007!

And I note there's another theory to where Fleming got 007! How interesting.

[Mister Asterix]

Bond didn't get promoted. He was demoted. You really should read YOLT. You can get cheap, old copies on eBay.

[Blofeld's Cat]

freemo (02 Oct, 2001 12:51 p.m.):
Its Zero Zero Seven. I think theres some confusion because the font in the old books makes the zeros look similar to O for Orange. But if you compare "007" with the page numbers and text, its clearly Zero Zero Seven....

Makes you wonder why he's not called Double Zero Seven.
It just doesn't sound right, though, does it?

[R]

freemo (09 Oct, 2001 08:15 a.m.):
I'm pretty sure he was promoted in YOLT, and was confused about it becuase he bungled up his last two assignments. If Bond got demoted then he would have quit. I could be wrong, ofcourse.

He was promoted, the four-digit number apparently having more status than a three-digit one. (Secret agents were easily pleased in those days)

[dennisbolt]

Am I not mistaken, but don't the English (and especially in 1950s) say ZED instead of ZERO?

I myself use "oh" when i say the numeral zero in phone numbers and many people use "oh" when they speak zero, especially in sequential things.

I read in the "rough guide to james bond" (a suprisingly goog little recent book) that he got it from the MI6 documents as mentioned earlier in thread.

[jwheels]

Was Bond demoted from 7777 back to 007? If he was, was it when he went to MI6 and tried to assassinate M?

Also, this is completley OT, but I was wondering why Jacques Nexus
has "Member" under his screen name, and Vargas has "Junior Member" under his?

[iain]

OK some confusion here.

1. The british say zed instead of zee for the last letter of the alphabet. Zero is zero or nought or nil.

2. Bond was not promoted or demotes in YOLT, he was reassigned to a diplomatic department in an attempt to give him a highly challenging mission that would not endanger lives (not directly anyhow) if he made a mess of it, as he had his last two assignments.

3. 00 means 'eyes only' in the British military establishment. It dates from Elizabethan times and the zero or oh was meant to represent an eye. Dr John Dee was a spy in Elizabeths court who sent his reports to the Queen with 007, seven was not the number but a secret code of his, it just looked like the number 7.

Another piece of trivia is the origin of 'M', anybody know that one?

[Genrewriter]

Blue Eyes: Did you ever track down a copy of YOLT? I find that used bookstores usually have a pretty good selection of stuff. They might have a copy of YOLT for a pretty reasonable price.

Total shot in the dark here, but I think that "M" is most likely what British Intelligence uses as a code for the boss and Fleming adopted it.

[jwheels]

British Intelligence uses the letter "C". Others have said in different forums, that one reason that Fleming used "M" is because he used to call his mother "M"

[Kingdom Come]

u lot need a bit more roughage in your diets!!

[Jriv71]

Originally posted by jwheels57
Others have said in different forums, that one reason that Fleming used "M" is because he used to call his mother "M"

That's what I'd heard, as well.

[Genrewriter]

Thanks for the info, cool bit of trvia.

[iain]

MI6, or the SIS as it was previously called, always uses the letter 'C' when refering to its chief. This is a tribute to Sir Mansfield Cumming the founder of SIS.

Fleming using 'M' instead of 'C' was a tongue in cheek nod to both his mother and Sir Mansfield.

[Xenobia]

Remind me...in the novels, YOLT comes after OHMSS, which means if he was buggling things, it was because Bond was still grieving for Tracy, no?

-- Xenobia

[iain]

Absolutely.

[Blofeld's Cat]

3. 00 means 'eyes only' in the British military establishment. It dates from Elizabethan times and the zero or oh was meant to represent an eye. Dr John Dee was a spy in Elizabeths court who sent his reports to the Queen with 007, seven was not the number but a secret code of his, it just looked like the number 7.

If anyone is interested, Project Guttenberg has just recently put on line "The Private Diary of Dr. John Dee" that you can download.

Fascinating read.

[dee-bee-five]

Personally, I've always liked the theory that Fleming was influenced by the Rudyard Kipling story about a railway engine called .007 (note the point). Whether he was or not hardly seems to matter.

[bond_girl_double07]

MI6, or the SIS as it was previously called, always uses the letter 'C' when refering to its chief. This is a tribute to Sir Mansfield Cumming the founder of SIS.

Fleming using 'M' instead of 'C' was a tongue in cheek nod to both his mother and Sir Mansfield.

From the Wikipedia article (did someone from CBN write the James Bond article in wikipedia btw?):

"The title "M" is believed to derive from the first real life head of MI6, Mansfield Smith-Cumming, who used his initial "C" to indicate he had seen a paper and so became referred to as "C", a practice which carried on with his successors."

Does anybody know M's full title? I know it's Rear Admiral Sir Miles Messervy but I don't remember the bit at the end...

[darthbond]

Bond girl, I worte part of it, just to correct some parts. You also got M. right. I like scaramanga's and iain's ideas of where "007" came from, but I am always told that a bus route was the source. I am convinced that iain was right. That would explain where "eyes only" came from. Just asking, but does anyone know what the offical biography of Fleming says. (The one with Andrew Lycett as the author I think it was.)

darthbond

[bond_girl_double07]

Bond girl, I worte part of it, just to correct some parts. You also got M. right. I like scaramanga's and iain's ideas of where "007" came from, but I am always told that a bus route was the source. I am convinced that iain was right. That would explain where "eyes only" came from. Just asking, but does anyone know what the offical biography of Fleming says. (The one with Andrew Lycett as the author I think it was.)

darthbond

Ahhh, great article darthbond! Do you know the rest of M's title though? I think there are three or four letters after his last time (it probably has something to do with rank, but I was going to look it up once I got the rest of his title). I'll try to do a little research, and post anything I find..

UPDATE

I did some research, and I think his full title is Rear Admiral Sir Miles Messervy KCMG (please correct me if I'm wrong)..

According to Wikipedia "In the rear of the Naval Squadron, a third Admiral would command the remaining ships and, as this section of the squadron was considered the least dangerous, the Admiral in command of the rear would typically be the most junior of the squadron Admirals. This has survived into the modern age, with the rank of Rear Admiral the first and junior-most of the Admiralty ranks of most navies."

The KCMG evidentally stands for "knight commander of St. Michael and St. George" which is "the second highest rank of a British order of knighthood." M then is a rank above Bond, who is only a CMG (companion). All three ranks are used to honor those who have protected or aided the commonwealth (according to Encyclopedia Britannica.. librarians site their sources )

Edited by bond_girl_double07, 19 October 2006 - 11:27 PM.

[Cody]

You definitely don't say double-nought-seven!

That is how my grandmother says it.