34 replies to this topic

[JimmyBond]

I am of course referring to the Parasurfing scene from DAD and the "Plane Catch" from Goldeneye. Both scenes are looked at as some of the low points of the Brosnan era, but would the stunts have been remembered fondly if they were done practically (or as much as could be done practically without killing someone?).

I think the plane stunt could have been done to look a bit better, not sure how they would have done it but perhaps a few more jumps from the stunt person? Maybe a camera mounted helmet? I don't know, if they had more money I think they could have really done it.

As for DAD, I think that scene could have been partially filmed practically, it would have looked better too. They could have actually filmed a stuntman surfing a giant wave, then they could have added him into Iceland or something.

[Mister Asterix]

[mra]The

[Jim]

The issue (is it right for a grown-ish man to have issues with this piffle?) I have with the wave is that I expect that it was just too dangerous to be done for real, so CGI was used for something that couldn't possibly happen anyway. Beyond the willing suspension of disbelief, beyond the just-oh-so-marginally possible into the impossible. Can't think of another stunt in the series that diverges from the possible in such a way, however stupid that stunt may be,

And yes, I know there's an ongoing and utterly sterile debate about whether falling man can catch falling 'plane but - without wishing to come across as completely incoherent - that one, I dunno, I guess... it gets the benefit of the doubt.

[Tarl_Cabot]

Both were too ridiculous to be done for real regardless of how much time and money was available. They should keep their stunt ideas within the confines of reality or just scrap em.

[marktmurphy]

[quote name='Mister Asterix' post='538105' date='29 March 2006 - 15:52']
[mra]The

[Simon]

The plane stunt in GE was just taken a few seconds too far. If the plane was going at a decent speed prior to leaving the runway, then it would have continued to go horizontal until, conceivably, it ran dry. Principles of flight would have the thing gaining speed and looking to right itself. (Didn't this happen when they dumped the plane off the cliff for the finale of Octopussy? It just flew and flew))

To my mind, the scene would have been better executed if the plane had continued to go horizontally, leave the runway behind for 50 meters and for Bond to catch it up mid air on the horizontal by pure speed and acceleration alone.

This way, he would have the excuse of power of the bike to thrust him towards the plane and once he's caught it, the clamber through to the inside would have been on a horizontal plane and therefore somewhat more plausible and in keeping with an otherwise great pre credits.

And, of course, this I believe could have been done by a stunt man as the plane could have been flown by a pilot to keep it on the straight and narrow.

The parasailing stunt is too stupid an idea in concept and execution to provide comment on. Indeed, the whole of DAD will probably date more through excessive digital grading and CGI than it would otherwise have. If one looks at it all, it could all have been done away with.

The pre credits, the sunny/windy day in Cuba, the parasailing - none of it benefitted the film as I doubt Cornwall would have looked any more like Korea had it been left alone. The Cuba escape could have been a rainy day and been just as effected (and wholly less frigged about with) and that brings us back to the para cartoon.

[SecretAgentFan]

I agree with those who say that the plane stunt was too dangerous and the wave was just too absurd to do it for real. Fortunately, for CR they went back to stunts that are possible to do for real while still being exciting.

[Robert Watts]

Basic physics make the plane stunt impossible to do for real.

Brosnan would way at least 30 kilograms less then the plane (I can't be bothered to research how much a plane like that would weigh) so the plane will always fall faster due to a little thing called gravity

(Sure the plane may really keep on going for a while but you catch my drift)

as for the Ice Wave... don't get me started...

(All that said the plane stunt looks 5000 times more real then the Ice Wave)

[Mister Asterix]

Basic physics make the plane stunt impossible to do for real.

Brosnan would way at least 30 kilograms less then the plane (I can't be bothered to research how much a plane like that would weigh) so the plane will always fall faster due to a little thing called gravity

(Sure the plane may really keep on going for a while but you catch my drift)

as for the Ice Wave... don't get me started...

(All that said the plane stunt looks 5000 times more real then the Ice Wave)

[mra]Sorry, but you show a lack of understanding for basic physics. (Google "Galileo's Experiment at the Leaning Tower of Pisa")

Gravity pulls on all things equally. So barring wind resistance (which is what causes planes to fly) the two objects

[bondrocks14]

The only problem I've had w/ the plane sequence is how faked it looked when he grabbed a hold of it and climbed in. The iceberg surfing...nothing can justify it.

[tdalton]

I never have liked the "Plane Catch" from GE. Honestly, I just can't believe that they put it in there. It's just too unbelievable, even for Bond. I just can't believe that, even as wreckless as Bond is, that he would do something with such a miniscule chance of success. I would imagine that in real life, someone would have about a 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000 chance of actually completing that stunt. It just doesn't make sense to me that Bond would even try it.

[stamper]

When you see the inspiration for GE, the plane section in True Lies which look, most of it, totaly real because it is (they just filmed on the skyscraper roof), you have tears coming down on your cheeks when you watch GE, and these are not happiness tears.
I know I'm not english, but can you spell dodgy ?
I hope all stunts in CR looks real. One bloody CGI stunt might ruin the whole movie.

PS who cares if a stunt is realistic or not, as long as it is believable, which the intro of GE, was not. Due to dodgy rear projection etc... True Lies was the true James Bond of the nineties, even if it's totally different (married guy etc), the action is what a nineties James Bond should have been.

[Johnboy007]

The plane has never bothered me (nor the oft-maligned invisible car), but the parasurfing makes cringe.

[dunmall]

in my mind the plane catch is no worse then the poor back projection during the cable car sequence in moonraker.

of course i really like poor back projection for some warped reason, it seems more earthy and real i don't know how to describe it...

[K1Bond007]

The 'plane catch' wasn't CGI. That was just done old school, except the pacing of it was just all wrong. I don't really have a problem with it. I like the scene, but Bond should have been closer tothe plane when going off the cliff and getting into the plane shouldn't have taken so long. That should have been much faster to at least make it appear believable.

As I said, it's not that big of a deal. We're talking about a franchise with missiles in cars, ejector seats, space laser guns, space stations, undersea lairs, volcano lairs, satellites made of diamonds, a guy who can bite through anything, a guy who was shot in the head but still lives (now without senses!), invisible cars, remote control cars, car planes, a solution to the energy crisis (hey Bond it's 2006, WTF mate?!), ghetto blasters, a phonebooth with an airbag (...wtf.), mini rebreathers, and a keychain that deploys stun gas only if you whistle Rule Britannia. I could go on forever here. If it's not impossible, then it's usually just not feasible. No reason why the 'plane catch' should bug you anymore. Suspend disbelief. It's pretty much a requirement for a Bond film.

[TheSaint]

From what I read regarding the plane catch stunt, they tried it "for real" a number of times and the stuntman could never catch up to the plane so, call for special effects. Never had a problem with the plane catch.

As for the ice surfing, what they should've done is gotten Laird Hamilton, who they hired for the pre-title sequence, and had him perform the stunt for real elsewhere, then take that footage and cgi the cold environment around it.

[Dmitri Mishkin]

The plane has never bothered me (nor the oft-maligned invisible car), but the parasurfing makes cringe.

Same here Johnboy007. There's something about the plane catch that I will always forgive. Perhaps it's the excellent bungee jump that precedes it, done for real with no embellishment. Or perhaps it's the sheer energy of the GE opening: you want to cheer for Bond and after facing down Ourumov's firing squad, it's time for that heroic moment of release. It also helps that the whole sequence from falling from the motorcycle to actually grabbing the plane is relatively short. DAD unfortunately never gets close to building the same tension-release and instead goes into a long, drawn-out ice-surfing sequence that tries its best to be heroic (assisted by the Bond theme), which ultimately, satirizes the scene.

[Simon]

I don't really have a problem with it. I like the scene, but Bond should have been closer to the plane when going off the cliff and getting into the plane shouldn't have taken so long. That should have been much faster to at least make it appear believable.

Yup, agreed.

There is a long shot to show both the plane and Bond taking off from the runway - to my mind, he should have caught it in that scene, cutting to a close up for the impact of landing on it and the climb in.

[marktmurphy]

The plane catch has that shot of Bond riding his bike off the runway after the plane which, no matter what comes after, still looks amazing and is enough of a great looking real stunt to satisfy me.

(I remember that was a trick shot, though- the bike was nowhere near the runway the plane flies off, interestingly)

[secret_007]

In my opinion every bond film should do the stunts for real. CGI ruined the whole film in DAD and the CGI in Goldeneye looked very cheap.

[K1Bond007]

In my opinion every bond film should do the stunts for real. CGI ruined the whole film in DAD and the CGI in Goldeneye looked very cheap.

There was little if any CGI in GoldenEye. Most of that was just models and old fashioned visual effects.

[Turn]

My problem with both scenes is not that they were ruined by CGI, but that they just seemed like excess when everything that went before them was just fine and both were cases where less should have meant more.

The beginning stunt on the dam is one of the finest in the series. So why did they feel like that flying into the plane would top it? It was like something deemed too far out for a Moore film. Why couldn't Bond have just caught the plane's tail and have to climb his way in?

As for the parasurfing thing, well, again it was just a little too much. Wasn't his surviving a fall down the side of an ice cliff enough?

[Genrewriter]

I don't mind the plane catch either. As for the para surfing, it doesn't bother me too much on a special effects level but on a storytelling level it adds an unnecessary beat to the escape scene. You could easily cut the sequence and just go to Bond getting into the invisibvle car with no problem. Just have a bridging scene of him eluding the gunmen in some creative way and the problem is solved.

[Icephoenix]

I've never really had a problem with the plane catching sequence at the start of GoldenEye, but when watching it with someone who is seeing it for the first time they tend to giggle at the bluescreen work.

As for it's plausibility, well I'm no expert, so I'll stay out of this one. However, I always thought it would be a good idea if Bond whipped out the grapple gun which he used at the Dam. Just after he's gone over the edge, he aims and fires the grapple at the wing. Bingo. And then reels himself in.

Keeps the ballsy intent of the stunt, uses a previously seen prop and displays Bond's ingenuity and marksmanship

[I Like Sharks]

Yeah the plane catch in GE is maily faked but I don't care. It looks awesome. One of those genuine moments that makes a Bond film if you know what I mean. All that was missing was the Bond theme when he pulls up and flys away. Brosnan's acting is excellent as well-the look of tension and panic as he wrestles with the controls.

I suppose it can be done but is probably way too dangerous to be done for real. Incidently he catches the much heavier plane up by streamlining his body to travel faster-like how he catches up the pilot in the Moonraker parachute jump.

The DAD parasurfing scene is stupid but what I find more annoying is Jinx 'jumping' off that cliff in Cuba-this could have been done for real instead of some dodgy CGI shot of Halle Berry-completly lazy.

[Double-Oh Agent]

I don't mind the plane catch either. As for the para surfing, it doesn't bother me too much on a special effects level but on a storytelling level it adds an unnecessary beat to the escape scene. You could easily cut the sequence and just go to Bond getting into the invisibvle car with no problem. Just have a bridging scene of him eluding the gunmen in some creative way and the problem is solved.

I agree. The GoldenEye plane catch doesn't bother me and I'm not as irritated by the parasurfing scene in Die Another Day as most people seem to be. However, I do think that using CGI for stunt work in Bond movies should NEVER be done. Touch-up work is fine, but if it's used for the purpose of the main stunts then that is just plain wrong.

I've never really had a problem with the plane catching sequence at the start of GoldenEye, but when watching it with someone who is seeing it for the first time they tend to giggle at the bluescreen work.

As for it's plausibility, well I'm no expert, so I'll stay out of this one. However, I always thought it would be a good idea if Bond whipped out the grapple gun which he used at the Dam. Just after he's gone over the edge, he aims and fires the grapple at the wing. Bingo. And then reels himself in.

Keeps the ballsy intent of the stunt, uses a previously seen prop and displays Bond's ingenuity and marksmanship

Nice idea Icephoenix! That makes a lot of sense and if filmed probably would have been even more suspenseful than the real stuff that was actually shot. I like it!

[DLibrasnow]

In my opinion every bond film should do the stunts for real. CGI ruined the whole film in DAD and the CGI in Goldeneye looked very cheap.

secret_007, can you explain to me where the cheap-looking Computer Generated Imagery is in GoldenEye.

[marktmurphy]

The DAD parasurfing scene is stupid but what I find more annoying is Jinx 'jumping' off that cliff in Cuba-this could have been done for real instead of some dodgy CGI shot of Halle Berry-completly lazy.

Yes, that was shocking. Add to that the dreadful shot of the rocket car going over the cliff and bouncing on the cliff face. Appalling.

[hcmv007]

I beleive CGI has no place in stunts. It's good for a sci-fi or fantasy film, but NOT for James Bond. I think stunts need to go back to being more realistic, as some of them today are too much to believe.

[tdalton]

I beleive CGI has no place in stunts. It's good for a sci-fi or fantasy film, but NOT for James Bond. I think stunts need to go back to being more realistic, as some of them today are too much to believe.

I agree. If it can't be done for real, then it just simply can't be done. The stuntmen that the studios hire are of the highest caliber, so if they can't find a way to do the stunt, then they probably cannot be done, which means that they have no place in a Bond movie, IMO. Leave the CGI for science fiction and other action franchises, but not for Bond.