34 replies to this topic

[Scorpion]

This is a follow-up from the Reflections In A GoldenEye thread.

Does anyone in here know how or why the title "AQUATOR" came about for Bond 18?

We know that the secretary's typo made everyone rethink the title from the original "TOMORROW NEVER LIES", but what connections did the term AQUATOR have to Bond 18 during pre-production?

Was it the name of the stealth ship potentially? Was it the mission name as potentially spoken by M 'a la Thunderball?

Any thoughts? Does anyone out there know?

Thanks in advance.

[Tarl_Cabot]

I recall "AVATAR" as being a potential working title too.I don't know the meaning or signifigance of either title though. I think TND is a weak/lazy/cliched title.

[terminus]

I've heard Aquator too - it was supposed to be the name of the ship, from what I've heard.

[zencat]

I have the first draft of TND and it features the title Tomorrow Never Lies on the cover page. This tells me Aquator was never a title in contention, just fanboy rumour.

[Scorpion]

Aquator obviously has its basis in Aqua or Aquatic.

From the point of view of the OO Division or the Military/Naval Intelligence Services, the mission revolved around the sinking of the HMS Devonshire by the Chinese in international waters. Hence in M's briefing to 007 AQUATOR *could* have been the code name of the operation.

From the point of view of the audience it's a totally different matter as the villany is known right out of the main titles sequence and Carver or Stamper *could* have referred to the stealth ship as THE AQUATOR. Or "AQUATOR" could have even been written at the side of the ship without any of the villians saying so in the dialogue. (Most, if not all, marine vessels are named although one imagines white painted alphabets at the side of a ship may make it less stealthworthy (if that's even a word))

Tarl Cabot, you don't like the title "TOMORROW NEVER DIES". Would "AQUATOR" have been a more evocative name for Bond 18?

It is a one word three sylable title in the mould of Fleming, after all.

[Roebuck]

I have the first draft of TND and it features the title Tomorrow Never Lies on the cover page. This tells me Aquator was never a title in contention, just fanboy rumour.

I suspect it originated with a British tabloid that ran a story about Anthony Hopkins playing the villain in Bond 18, titled Aquator. They went as far as to suggest the plot concerned a rogue CIA agent who'd gained control of a deep-sea missile platform; GoldenEye underwater, basically.

I suppose if you substitute a stealth ship armed with stolen Tomahawks for a missile platform, you can see where they're coming from.

[Scorpion]

I have the first draft of TND and it features the title Tomorrow Never Lies on the cover page. This tells me Aquator was never a title in contention, just fanboy rumour.

Thanks, zencat.

Do you think they should have left it TOMORROW NEVER LIES?

TOMORROW NEVER LIES would have made some, not complete, sense. Although tomorrow never really does die, does it? There is ALWAYS a tomorrow (unless the world ended all of a sudden).

By the way zencat, what do you think of the title "AQUATOR"? Do you think that title is more evocative and Bondian than either TOMORROW NEVER DIES or TOMORROW NEVER LIES?

Cheers.

[Tarl_Cabot]

Aquator obviously has its basis in Aqua or Aquatic.

Tarl Cabot, you don't like the title "TOMORROW NEVER DIES". Would "AQUATOR" have been a more evocative name for Bond 18?

Not really but Tommorow Never Dies just reaks of zero imagination; like they just pulled it outta their butt.The World Is Not Enough may not be a very good Bond film but it's title is great, imho.

[The Minister Of Silly Walks]

then again DAD is a good title...? As far as i see TND and DAD are the only 2 non-fleming inspired titles. Just so happens to be two bad titles for two bad movies.

[Scorpion]

[quote name='The Minister Of Silly Walks' date='20 November 2005 - 19:37']then again DAD is a good title...?

Edited by Scorpion, 20 November 2005 - 07:45 PM.

[zencat]

I have the first draft of TND and it features the title Tomorrow Never Lies on the cover page. This tells me Aquator was never a title in contention, just fanboy rumour.

Thanks, zencat.

Do you think they should have left it TOMORROW NEVER LIES?

TOMORROW NEVER LIES would have made some, not complete, sense. Although tomorrow never really does die, does it? There is ALWAYS a tomorrow (unless the world ended all of a sudden).

By the way zencat, what do you think of the title "AQUATOR"? Do you think that title is more evocative and Bondian than either TOMORROW NEVER DIES or TOMORROW NEVER LIES?

Cheers.

I would have liked it had they left it Tomorrow Never Lies. That's the motto of Carver's paper. It works.

Not really crazy about about Aquator as a movie title. Sounds more like the title of a Bond graphic novel.

[Scorpion]

Thanks, Zencat! :-)

I never knew it was the newspaper's motto. Nice one!

Is the motto written on the newspaper's header somewhere? Or was that mentioned in the draft somewhere by Carver?

Why do you think they did'nt go the LIES route? Any insights? I mean, from what you've said (motto) it would make perfect sense, non?

Edited by Scorpion, 20 November 2005 - 08:53 PM.

[Kingdom Come]

I always loved AQUATOR as a title - maybe a future Bond title?

[Napoleon Solo]

I have the first draft of TND and it features the title Tomorrow Never Lies on the cover page. This tells me Aquator was never a title in contention, just fanboy rumour.

Thanks, zencat.

Do you think they should have left it TOMORROW NEVER LIES?

TOMORROW NEVER LIES would have made some, not complete, sense. Although tomorrow never really does die, does it? There is ALWAYS a tomorrow (unless the world ended all of a sudden).

The "Tomorrow" of "Tomorrow Never Lies" was a reference to the villain's newspaper, a sort of worldwide USA Today.

[Scorpion]

I have the first draft of TND and it features the title Tomorrow Never Lies on the cover page. This tells me Aquator was never a title in contention, just fanboy rumour.

Thanks, zencat.

Do you think they should have left it TOMORROW NEVER LIES?

TOMORROW NEVER LIES would have made some, not complete, sense. Although tomorrow never really does die, does it? There is ALWAYS a tomorrow (unless the world ended all of a sudden).

The "Tomorrow" of "Tomorrow Never Lies" was a reference to the villain's newspaper, a sort of worldwide USA Today.

Thanks Napoleon Solo but I got that on opening night about eight years ago. ;-)

Edited by Scorpion, 21 November 2005 - 01:09 PM.

[spynovelfan]

Re the question posed, I always find Google Groups useful. The first mention of AQUATOR on alt.fan.james-bond is from Mar 23 1996:

'Subject: The next bond movie

I was just checking out a page that talks about upcoming movies and they listed the next bond movie titled "Aquator" with a plot that is pretty farfethced but could have some credibility, well I don't know but the people who run the site aeare pretty hooked into the hollywood scene and have listed the movie as "Movies rumored".

[Loomis]

The rumour was that it was about nuclear warheads, and that Terence Stamp would play the villain and Natasha Hentridge the Bond girl.

I remember this rumour from one of the British film mags (Empire, Film Review or the like).

[delon64]

i recall the rumoured title being aquatar and although it was only a rumour david quinlan took it as fact and included it in his movie stars reference book as brosnans next bond movie...jumping the gun a little

[Con Laz Rog Tim Bros Dan 007]

I thought Aquator was the film that was supposed to come after The Property of a Lady? With dalton and then a rumor started about Lazenby as the villain with Brosnan for what became TND.


They originally wanted Stromberg to be Blofeld but the lawsuits were an issue. Even beofre that they had thought of making TSWLM as the film after OHMSS with Lazenby that would be the revenge flick and Bond would meet Anya then and so forth.


So Aquator was supposed to be a remake of TSWLM and the villain was then supposed to be an anti-Bond (they later actually used the villain premise from Aquator for Gustav Graves) that was where lazenby was supposed to play the villain.

I think the name Gustav Graves may have even been there for the Aquator idea.

The thought was to have Brosnan kill Lazenby in the end by strangling him with his bare hands, and some cheesy line about the other fella or something as he did it.

Feeling was it would please fans, write off lazenby and was pepped up by the Lazenby/Brosnan hate of words in the press (the same ones fans here say never happened, while procolaiming they know all that is Bond)

But that's all I ever really heard of it.


Bottom line it was just some stupid fanboy nonsense probably because when Lazenby first asked to play a villain, Wilson told him no, then said maybe but MGM didn't go for it, that was around the time before Twine.

That is what Lazenby himself claimed. Meaning Aquator was probably just BS like Death Waits For No Man, Pressure Point, Beyond The Ice, Beneath The Sea, etc. The only legit thing I ever heard about Aquator was referenccing what would have been dalton's 4th film (the one he was optioned to make after his 3 guaranteed films), the TND - Aquator connection really was just baloney.

Edited by Con Laz Rog Tim Bros Dan 007, 21 November 2005 - 10:03 PM.

[Andrew]

They originally wanted Stromberg to be Blofeld but the lawsuits were an issue. Even beofre that they had thought of making TSWLM as the film after OHMSS with Lazenby that would be the revenge flick and Bond would meet Anya then and so forth.

Where in the world did you hear that?

I very much doubt that being that The Spy Who Loved Me went through so many script changes that I don't think they would even have the idea for Anya in 1969.

[Scorpion]

I thought Aquator was the film that was supposed to come after The Property of a Lady? With dalton and then a rumor started about Lazenby as the villain with Brosnan for what became TND.



So Aquator was supposed to be a remake of TSWLM and the villain was then supposed to be an anti-Bond (they later actually used the villain premise from Aquator for Gustav Graves) ...

I think the name Gustav Graves may have even been there for the Aquator idea.

The only legit thing I ever heard about Aquator was referenccing what would have been dalton's 4th film (the one he was optioned to make after his 3 guaranteed films)...

Some really interesting tid-bits there...

My question is why would they be thinking about Dalton's 4th when his 3rd never made it to pre-production...just a treatment with cybernauts and his then girlfriend, Whoopie Goldberg, being a villian/henchwoman?

[Con Laz Rog Tim Bros Dan 007]

They originally wanted Stromberg to be Blofeld but the lawsuits were an issue. Even beofre that they had thought of making TSWLM as the film after OHMSS with Lazenby that would be the revenge flick and Bond would meet Anya then and so forth.

Where in the world did you hear that?

I very much doubt that being that The Spy Who Loved Me went through so many script changes that I don't think they would even have the idea for Anya in 1969.

Well there was a publication long ago where Cubby talked about some of the previous ideas for Bond films in earlier release sequence than they happened.

They are fairly well known really. For example, TMTWGG after YOLT, OHMSS after GF, OHMSS after TB, TB as the first Bond film, FYEO after TSWLM, etc.

What Cubby said was initially they had the idea of Atlantis and all of that set back around the late 60's and around the time they were building the sets of YOLT.

They originally intended for Stromberg to be Blofeld and thought they would make that film after OHMSS with lazenby as a revenge flick.

What happened though was while they decided on the next film they realized the costs at the time would be too much to make TSWLM with Atlantis and the underwater scenes etc how they wanted too and the studio was not keen on a TB type bonanza when lazenby was unkown.

So they went with their DAF scrip instead, which they compromised they would set Blofeld's headquarters on Hovver Dam. They were going to have ships with lasers and huge explosions and a huge naval battle as the film's finale.

Well when george quit, his salary which would have been about $1 million, then turned into Connery's salary of about $6 million plus what then was supposed to be 2 films fincanced by UA for Connery.


So DAF took a severe budget cut, it went back to the days of GF and such as far as the money really allocated for things like stunts, special effects and whatnot.

This explains why the ending of the film on the oil rig seems so cheaply made compared to finales of other Connery Bond films of the time like say YOLT for instance. They kept this formula for Moore's first two flicks, before having to spend the big money again when they finally did make Tswlm.

But basically what happened was they ended up making DAF and TSWLm when they did and how they did because of money. It would have cost too much to make Spy earlier, and DAF had to be cut back to make way for Connery's salary, when the technology was there to make Spy without enormous costs they did, but only then because after TMWTGG they had to double the budget and get back to the YOlt style huge films of spectacle to get the public interested largely again.

Edited by Con Laz Rog Tim Bros Dan 007, 22 November 2005 - 12:12 AM.

[killkenny kid]

I love this stuff.

[Con Laz Rog Tim Bros Dan 007]

[quote name='Scorpion' date='21 November 2005 - 23:47']
[quote name='Con Laz Rog Tim Bros Dan 007' date='21 November 2005 - 21:54']I thought Aquator was the film that was supposed to come after The Property of a Lady? With dalton and then a rumor started about Lazenby as the villain with Brosnan for what became TND.



So Aquator was supposed to be a remake of TSWLM and the villain was then supposed to be an anti-Bond (they later actually used the villain premise from Aquator for Gustav Graves) ...

I think the name Gustav Graves may have even been there for the Aquator idea.

The only legit thing I ever heard about Aquator was referenccing what would have been dalton's 4th film (the one he was optioned to make after his 3 guaranteed films)...

[/quote]






Honestly I don't think they really had anything but a premise. They took dalton's 3rd film and the Graves idea and pretty much morphed it into DAD.


They seem to only get so many ideas and eventually they use them.

I recall MG Wilson giving an interview after GE had come out where he was asked about the next Bond film.


All he basically said was that there was a though of a film being a remake of TSWLM, which in turn is another remake of YOLT, and that they would like to bring back Blofeld but lawsuits prevented it at the time with all the legal issues.

They though though that instead they could turn the Stromberg character into an "anti-Bond", which is where the GG character from DAD first originated basically.


Wilson had mentioned the premise of using Bond's alter ego and another Bond type against him as the villain, he said he wanted a very physical and hard hitting good fighting villain, like 006 was in GE.

Well after this a newspaper wrote a story that Lazenby was going to be the villain and Brosnan was going to kill him off, and that this would somehow appeal to Connery fans or some nonsense like that.

It came off of lazenby having said he would like to play a villain in a Bond film, but when Lazenby was asked about and Wilson they just said they had talked about it.


Years later Lazenby was asked in detail about it and he said they discussed him playing Renard in TWINE, and even before that him playing 006 in GE, which they then went with Anthony Hopkins, which then became a younger Sean Bean.

Lazenby semed to say Wilson eventually did not want him for GE, and that eventually Wilson considered him for TWINE but MGM didn't like it.

Who knows?

What we do know is Tomorrow Never Lies, which becameTND by the typo did feature a ship and a water type theme at the end. So possibly some of that premise was used.

But it really sounds to me like they intended to make Tpoal with dalton, and were brainstorming about Dalton's 4th film if it ever got made, and the rest of this Aquator stuff is just BS because it was out there and people were interested in it.

I have a strong feeling that is one of the reasons why dalton was reportedly so upset with the GE scripts, remember he kept saying he hated the scripts for the next one which became GE, it was probably a script similar to this Aquator with some DAD thrown in.

Edited by Con Laz Rog Tim Bros Dan 007, 22 November 2005 - 12:31 AM.

[Andrew]

I'm not sure how much I believe this. Maybe if I could see some sources.

[Carver]

[quote name='Scorpion' date='20 November 2005 - 19:44'][quote name='The Minister Of Silly Walks' date='20 November 2005 - 19:37']then again DAD is a good title...?

[Con Laz Rog Tim Bros Dan 007]

Tomorrow Never Lies was pretty clever, Tomorrow never Dies was a bit lame.


Die Another Day was a bit lame too.

The World is not Enough was pretty good and GoldenEye was great of course they pilfered those from Fleming so.

[Mr. Somerset]

I think the title Aquator was mentioned in an issue of Goldeneye Magazine. Anyway, my choice is Tomorrow Never LIES. I kind of liked the title, TND the first time I heard it.......after I had a martini.
Seriously, LIES,was more interesting and perhaps, Fleming-like. No, make that Gardner-like.
I still think DAD is the worst example of a James Bond film title. Sounds like something Saturday Night Live would come up with on a Bond spoof skit.

[spynovelfan]

I'm not sure how much I believe this. Maybe if I could see some sources.

You fusspot! He already said "Well there was a publication long ago..."

How specific do you want him to get, Andrew?

(Sorry, I can't find the smiley for winking while itching one's chin)

[stromberg]

Something smells pasty-skinned and wifeless...