29 replies to this topic

[TheSaint]

Reading about that forthcoming statue, and finding out that he passed away in 1981, I wondered if Hoagy Carmichael knew that Fleming chose him to be basis for Bond's looks? Has anyone here read anything regarding whether he knew or not?

[Bondian]

A very good point to which I have absolutely no idea.

[doublenoughtspy]

It is an excellent question. I know people at the Lilly library and Indiana University are quite aware of the link (since both Fleming's and Carmichael's archives are there) - but I've never heard any quote or reference that he knew.

[TheSaint]

If Fleming scholar Doublenought doesn't know, no one may.

[Bill Tanner]

Well since Casino Royale (which contains two references to Hoagy Carmichael) was published in 1953, and Carmichael died in 1981, I'd think it extraordinary if someone hadn't mentioned it in all that time.

Edited by Bill Tanner, 20 April 2005 - 01:55 PM.

[Skudor]

Does anyone have a picture of Hoagy Carmichael? I've never seen the guy myself.

[doublenoughtspy]

A few Bondian pics:

[Skudor]

Thanks - not quite they way I've always picture Bond.

Edited by Skudor, 20 April 2005 - 04:42 PM.

[Blofeld's Cat]

Then of course, there's Hoagy in the CBn main page banner as well.

[Qwerty]

Thanks    - not quite they way I've always picture Bond.

Definitely check out the CBn banner BC has shown below.

[Skudor]

[quote name='Qwerty' date='21 April 2005 - 02:42'][quote name='Skudor' date='20 April 2005 - 12:42']Thanks

[Mister Asterix]

Then of course, there's Hoagy in the CBn main page banner as well.

I wasn't aware that was meant to be Hoagy Carmichael, even though I knew in my mind's eye what he looked like from photographs.

That illustration is based on this picture of Hoagland:



[mra]I

[doublenoughtspy]

What is interesting Mr *, is that I think Grell based that great image of Bond, on this image of Hoagy:



It's a gif with a transparent background so it looks weird - check out the page here:

Songwriter's Hall of Fame

But I agree I love Grell's work.

[Almadjian]

Interesting thread. I would think it would be difficult NOT for Fleming to have heard Hoagy at least once. He was very popular in his time, even having a TV show and appearing in several big movies, my favourite is "To Have and Have Not" with Bogey.

Similarly, I would find it nigh impossible for Hoagy not to have been told that he appeared in a Bond novel.

Actual correspondence between the two would be interesting indeed!

[Fro]

This is a old thread I'll have to bump, because I'm a student at Indiana University. I was running a search for "Casino Royale" to start reading some of the Fleming novels and saw they had a bunch of the novels in the Lilly Library... little did I realize that they were the original manuscripts. I'll have to see if they have some of them on display. I settled for reading "Live and Let Die" (which was quite enjoyable, btw).

Considering Carmichael lived 20 more years after James Bond became uber-popular in America, I'd say it was quite impossible for him not to know that James Bond was supposed to look like him.

Futhermore, it'd be impossible for Fleming to not hear Hoagy Carmichael's music... he was an incredibly popular composer in his prime. He wrote "Stardust", "Georgia On My Mind", "Heart and Soul", "The Nearness of You" and some Oscar nominated stuff "Ole Buttermilk Sky", "Cool Cool Cool of the Evening" (won the Oscar). "My Resistance is Low" went to #1 in the UK in 1952 I believe. I believe he was very popular over in Great Britain around the time "Casino Royale" was written, moreso than in the States where tastes were starting to shift towards what would become rock music. Considering Fleming was aware of Hoagy enough to know what he looked like, he had heard his music before (usually he sang a song or two in the pictures he acted in).

People are looking at the wrong pictures of Hoagy though... those pics are of a very young Hoagy Carmichael or a too-old Hoagy. I believe specifically it was Hoagy in "To Have and Have Not" that inspired Fleming (which is Hoagy at about Bond's age in the books).



He's got the blue-grey eyes (well, grey anyway); short, dark hair, and yes, a comma of hair falls on his forehead. Not to mention the omnipresent cigarette.

Daniel Craig definitely looks the most like Hoagy of anyone who's played the movie Bond.

This is Hoagy in "The Las Vegas Story", which came out in 1952, while "Royale" was being written.



Perhaps there's something to shed more light on the subject one of Hoagy's two autobiographies somewhere. The Lilly Library has no letters between Fleming and Carmichael unfortunately, nor any mention of Fleming according to an online search.



The Hoagy Carmichael of the mid to late 40s and early 50s definitely looks like James Bond.

Edited by Fro, 21 January 2006 - 05:26 PM.

[TortillaFactory]

Very interesting stuff, Fro.

Still don't think Bond's meant to look exactly like that. Only from certain angles. Do you really think Craig looks at all like Hoagy? His face is quite round, while Hoagy has that Nick Cage thing going on.

[ACE]

More tangentially,

In LALD, Bond reflects he looks un-English and has some American overtones.

In FRWL, Tatiana says Bond looks like an American film star.

Of course, Vesper makes the likeness in CR, although Bond dismisses it.

Fleming also said Bond looked like famous golfer, Henry Cotton.

[Fro]

Very interesting stuff, Fro.

Still don't think Bond's meant to look exactly like that.  Only from certain angles.  Do you really think Craig looks at all like Hoagy?  His face is quite round, while Hoagy has that Nick Cage thing going on.

Oh, no doubt, it's just a general resemblance in the face. I do think Craig looks a bit like Carmichael, particularly in the eyes/nose/cheekbones/ears. They both have very rough looking faces. The size of the jawline and forehead is totally different, however.

Edited by Fro, 21 January 2006 - 05:30 PM.

[Monsieur B]

Then of course, there's Hoagy in the CBn main page banner as well.

Really, I honestly thought that was Cary Grant on the main banner.

[Flash1087]

A little off topic, but did Fleming's mention of Carmichael get anyone else into his music? I'd never even heard of the fella until I read Casino Royale, and then I started listening to his stuff. He's good!

[TheSaint]

Hey Fro, thanks for bumping up the thread I started awhile ago. Love the shot of Hoagy from "The Las Vegas Story".

[superado]

[quote name='Fro' date='20 January 2006 - 23:26']People are looking at the wrong pictures of Hoagy though... those pics are of a very young Hoagy Carmichael or a too-old Hoagy.

Edited by superado, 25 January 2006 - 08:05 PM.

[spynovelfan]

Gala Brand *also* says Bond looks 'rather like Hoagy Carmichael in a way' in MOONRAKER (Chapter 14, Itching Fingers). I think Fleming having two of his heroines saying this points to Carmichael being a pretty solid model for his conception of Bond's general look - but only general, because he looks like Hoagy 'in a way'. I suspect Fleming would take one look at Mister *'s rendering of Hoagy and give a quick nod: 'That's the chap.'

[superado]

Gala Brand *also* says Bond looks 'rather like Hoagy Carmichael in a way' in MOONRAKER (Chapter 14, Itching Fingers). I think Fleming having two of his heroines saying this points to Carmichael being a pretty solid model for his conception of Bond's general look - but only general, because he looks like Hoagy 'in a way'. I suspect Fleming would take one look at Mister *'s rendering of Hoagy and give a quick nod: 'That's the chap.'

I agree. Though the resemblance to Hoagy Carmichael were phrased as the opinions of two characters, I believe that this was still Fleming's "literary voice" and intent.

Similarly, this dynamic applies to Vesper's "very good looking" and Tania's "American film star" and "terribly handome" comments. John Griswold in his "James Bond, the Man and His World," says to the effect that the image of Bond was all over the place in form of media and advertisements. This makes sense because of the post-war prosperity and the ensuing increase of print advertisements showing a handsome man holding a safety razor, for example. To me, being "handsome" is an integral aspect of the Bond character, just as ogre-ish and red-headed is that of Drax, or how Tania looks like Greta Garbo with black hair, etc.

BTW, I wonder if where else is Bond referred to as handsome and good-looking, apart from CR and FRWL?

[spynovelfan]

[quote name='superado' date='25 January 2006 - 19:33']To me, those images of Hoagy in "To Have and Have Not" actually look closer to Timothy Dalton and nothing like Daniel Craig.

[superado]

Thanks for confirming MR and DN, spynovelfan. I also remember Vivien Michaels describing the stranger who had cruel good looks, or something like that, without saying "handsome."

Anyway, my comment about how Bond "was all over the place," Griswold was saying how the images of the quintessential, well-groomed handsome man saturated every form of print media and billboards during the post-war era. He also expounded on Tatiana's "American film star" comment with mentions of the leading men of Hollywood and how they reflected and defined standard for "handsome."

On the comparison pics between Hoagy and Craig, yes, in that shot there is a srong similarity, but there is just a roughness about Craig that's at a different level from Hoagy's in that picture, aleit for the fact that Hoagy was at an older age in that photo.

Regarding the last photo you posted, I used a modified version of that for my avatar on the AJB board, as well as for the literary Bond passport that I bought a short time ago.

[spynovelfan]

Thanks for confirming MR and DN, spynovelfan.

Well, I'd have to check DN.

Yes, Mr Craig could do with some moisturiser.

And a belated welcome to CBN! A few weeks ago I was searching the net for some information and came across a thread at AJB in which someone showed their collection of personalised Bond figurines: they had created that whole scene mentioned in the SMERSH dossier of your signature with him drinking at a caf

[superado]

Thanks for your compliment, yes, that was my collection. However, based on recent revelations about Bond's penchant for short sleeved shirts like Fleming's, I may need to cut off the sleeves, or at least the visible cuffs of that figure!

[spynovelfan]

Thanks for your compliment, yes, that was my collection.  However, based on recent revelations about Bond's penchant for short sleeved shirts like Fleming's, I may need to cut off the sleeves, or at least the visible cuffs of that figure!

No, it was perfect!

[Fro]

And here is the most Bondian image of Hoagy ever... a sketch someone did of him back in the day. It's now hanging in the Hoagy Carmichael Room at Indiana University.

Edited by Fro, 14 April 2006 - 01:37 AM.