135 replies to this topic

[Righty007]

I personally believe Robert Brown replaced Bernard Lee as Admiral Sir Miles Messervy between 1983 - 1989. Or do you think Robert Brown played Admiral Hargreaves, the character that he played in The Spy Who Loved Me?

There is little evidence to point in either direction. For Brown's first appearance in Octopussy there is no dialogue to indicate a new M and it is all business as usual. This fits with the press material for the film which apparently stated that Brown was intended to be the same character as Lee. There appears to be some useful evidence when Brown's M is referred to as "Admiral" by General Gogol in A View to a Kill. Unfortunately, since both Messervy and Hargreaves were Admirals this evidence isn't particularly conclusive! As a final point on this issue, it is worth noting that in the literary continuity of the novels penned by John Gardner and Raymond Benson, it is made clear that it is Miles Messervy who is replaced by a female M.

Source: http://www.mjnewton....bond/mult_m.htm

[[dark]]

Whilst I feel that the filmmakers' intention was that both Lee's and Brown's Ms are one and the same, I like to think Brown played Hargreaves in every Bond film in which he appeared. So I'll vote as such.

Just seems one less appearance change gone unexplained. Lee's M went on leave, developed a taste for it and decided to retire, at which point, Hargreaves - who had been associated with MI6 in The Spy Who Loved Me - stepped up to the plate.

But it's purely subjective.

[Dunph]

Hmm, I do think he played a promoted Hargreaves, meself.

[Qwerty]

I personally believe Robert Brown replaced Bernard Lee as Admiral Miles Messervy between 1983 - 1989.

As do I, although there are strong arguments from both sides. I just saw him in the role as M, and such as the credits. Just the way that I've seen him in those four James Bond films, after his appearence in The Spy Who Loved Me.

[Righty007]

,8 July 2004 - 21:09] I like to think Brown played Hargreaves in every Bond film in which he appeared.  So I'll vote as such.

Don't forget Maud Adams played Andrea Anders, Octopussy, and a Californian. Also, Henderson and Ernst Stavro Blofeld were played by Charles Gray.

[DLibrasnow]

I personally believe that Brown played Admiral Hargreaves in all his 007 movie appearances. But in the end there is no conclusive evidence either way so it's all personal preference.

[Triton]

I don't know if Robert Brown's M was a promoted Admiral Hargreaves or not. But I am certain that he isn't the Sir Miles Messevry character portrayed by Bernard Lee. Brown's M isn't the curmudgeon played by Lee. I also can't imagine Bernard Lee saying some of Brown's lines from the James Bond films from 1983 to 1989. They just seem out-of-character to me.

[TheSaint]

I don't see what the mystery is. 5 actors have played 007 yet, another actor plays M & suddenly he's not the same character?

[Qwerty]

I don't see what the mystery is. 5 actors have played 007 yet, another actor plays M & suddenly he's not the same character?

Far more than that, so I've learned from here.

[freemo]

From a previous occasion...

People like to debate whether Robert Brown's "M" was Admiral Hargreaves or Admiral Messervy, but you know, maybe it's both. Good comprimise that. Perhaps, for example, after Mr. Brown played Hargreaves in TSWLM, he played Messervy as "M" in OP and then Hargreaves again, as the new "M", from AVTAK onwards. It's most certianly possible. Because, just like this is no evidence proving that Robert Brown is playing the same character in TSWLM and OP, there's none to suggest he's playing the same character in OP and AVTAK either. Or in any other two films for that matter.

Then again, maybe Robert Brown's "M" is neither Hargreaves nor Messervy. Why does it have to be one or the other? No one ever said that it had to be one or the other. Perhaps he was playing an entirely new character, Admiral Winston Horatio Sidebottom as "M". Or maybe, just maybe, he's playing a different character as M in each of his 4 "M" films. Messery in OP, Hargreaves in AVTAK, Sidebottom in TLD and another M in LTK. There could have been 2, 3 or 4 different characters as "M" all played by Robert Brown. Charles Grey played 2 characters, Maud Adams played 2 characters, Joe Don baker played 2 characters. Maybe Robert Brown played 4 characters, or maybe even 5 if Hargreaves was never "M".

[[dark]]

I don't see what the mystery is. 5 actors have played 007 yet, another actor plays M & suddenly he's not the same character?

But, for example, Moore hadn't previously played another character in the series.

Brown had appeared earlier on as Admiral Hargreaves before he appeared as M.

[Blofeld's Cat]

As I've always stated in the past when this subject has popped up that there's no proof that Brown's M is Hargreaves and while there's also no proof he's Sir Miles either there's no reason to suggest there's been a change of character.

[Simon]

If we're debating that Brown played Hargreaves even though there was no filmic evidence to suggest this, then perhaps we should also lend credence to Tamahori's suggestion that Bond is just a cover name played by successive anonymous agents.

As above, if five actors play Bond, why can't two actors play the male M?

[BONDFINESSE 007]

brown played a promoted hargreaves to the position of M

[Blofeld's Cat]

As above, if five actors play Bond, why can't two actors play the male M?

The diference being that we know that the 5 actors play a character called Bond, whereas there is no certainty that Brown played Hargreaves. Or Messervey for that matter, but as there's no indication to suggest he's Hargreaves why assume he isn't Messervey?

[Loomis]

Then again, maybe Robert Brown's "M" is neither Hargreaves nor Messervy. Why does it have to be one or the other? No one ever said that it had to be one or the other. Perhaps he was playing an entirely new character, Admiral Winston Horatio Sidebottom as "M". Or maybe, just maybe, he's playing a different character as M in each of his 4 "M" films. Messery in OP, Hargreaves in AVTAK, Sidebottom in TLD and another M in LTK. There could have been 2, 3 or 4 different characters as "M" all played by Robert Brown. Charles Grey played 2 characters, Maud Adams played 2 characters, Joe Don baker played 2 characters. Maybe Robert Brown played 4 characters, or maybe even 5 if Hargreaves was never "M".

Actually, if you play the third track on the vinyl soundtrack album of OCTOPUSSY backwards while playing the DVD of THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS from 15 minutes, 3 seconds to 15 minutes, 8 seconds and reading the last line of the fourth chapter of "For Special Services", while someone recites Kipling's "If" in the background, clues fall into place revealing clearly the fact that Brown's M is one Admiral Leon "Shorty" Mendelsohn. I'm told that the character has quite an interesting backstory, but apparently only Raymond Benson and one other person know what it is, and they never travel on the same plane.

[Jim]

I've always assumed The Dench plays Messervy too. SIS employees are too polite to mention this. "Call me Barbara now. For I am a lady, I do ladies things and twirl my little parasol."

[Harmsway]

The one reason that I don't like to think that Brown played Sir Miles is that for me, there's only one Sir Miles, and that is Bernard Lee. He perfectly captured the old man from Fleming's novels. Brown isn't Fleming's M, so I prefer to think of him as a separate character, Admiral Hargreaves.

[Cesari]

Who do you think Bond fight against in DAF, Blofeld or Henderson disguised as Blofeld?

Who do you think helps him in GoldenEye? Jack Wade or Whitaker?

Who is that man saying he is James Bond from LALD to AVTAK? Brett Sinclair? The saint?
Who is that man pretending to be Bond from GoldenEye to now? Remington Steele?

It is not because an actor played two different caharacters in different James Bond movies that the first character is back!

IMO Bernard Lee and Robert Brown have always been the same character Sir Miles Messervy.

[Tanger]

I always have thought and always will think that Brown played a promoted Hargreaves. Yes there's no evidence, but it works better and I think the whole thing is open to interpretation anyway.

[Janus Assassin]

He was M. Admiral Hargreaves was a minor character is TSWLM. Nothing to do with any of the later Bond films. Back in '77 no one knew that he would end up playing M. They casted him because they thought he would be a good M at the time. Admiral Hargreaves and M are two different characters just like Charles Gray in YOLT and Charles Gray in DAF.

[Simon]

The one reason that I don't like to think that Brown played Sir Miles is that for me, there's only one Sir Miles, and that is Bernard Lee. He perfectly captured the old man from Fleming's novels.

That's like saying, "There's only one Bond - Moore. Because he was so wity!

"And all the rest are something else because I don't hold their portrayals in such hight regard."

[Cesari]

Of course Robert Brown is a promoted Admiral Hargreaves. No doubt about that.
As Gogol is a promoted Morzeny.
As Paula is a promoted gypsy girl
As Octopussy is a promoted Andrea Sanders.
As Jack Wade is a promoted Whitaker.

[Simon]

The difference being that we know that the 5 actors play a character called Bond, whereas there is no certainty that Brown played Hargreaves. Or Messervey for that matter, but as there's no indication to suggest he's Hargreaves why assume he isn't Messervey?[/color]

But why create wishful thinking out of uncertainty?

There's no certainty that M didn't have a sex change and come back six years later in a skirt.

There's no certainty that Wade isn't the double agent brother of Baker's former role.

And there really isn't any certainty that Sam Bond's Moneypenny isn't the daughter of Maxwell's Moneypenny - It's her surname so, since it hasn't been explained to us, it is just as likely.

Unless we're told that Brown is playing Hargreaves, the assumption has to be the status quo. The first time Bond met Brown's M, there was no recognition, no hail fellow well met, no question as to where the other fellow was, no catching up on old days surrounding the Spy mission etc etc.

It's all just a little bit too fan-boyish for me.

[DLibrasnow]

Of course Robert Brown is a promoted Admiral Hargreaves. No doubt about that.
As Gogol is a promoted Morzeny.
As Paula is a promoted gypsy girl
As Octopussy is a promoted Andrea Sanders.
As Jack Wade is a promoted Whitaker.

The difference is that it is plausible for a British Admiral Hargreaves to become M, after all Bernard Lee's Sir Miles was an Admiral himself.

So your post and all that Gogol/Morzeny rubbish is total garbage! How would a SPECTRE agent from FRWL end up as the head of the KGB? Andrea Anders was killed in TMWTGG...

I have no idea what you are trying to point out....

Are you saying that a British Admiral like Hargreaves could not be the head of the British Secret Service. If thats so, how do you explain Sir Myles background as an Admiral...

There's no evidence either way...In fact there are interviews with EON and producer Mike Wilson from the early 1980s (that were quoted in the "R to Q" thread) that hint strongly that Brown does play Hargreaves in Octopussy, but nothing that could be termed conclusive.

[Cesari]

I'm just saying that Robert Brown being Admiral Hargreaves is as stupid as saying that Morzeny was promoted to Gogol just because the same actor was in two different Bond films.
And the idea that Brown is Hargreaves just because Messervy was a former admiral is nonsense for me.
I've never read those interviews of Michael Wilson but I don't think at all that Brown is a promoted Heargraves.
Bernard Lee died and they tried to find another actor to be Messervy.
Otherwise we would have had informations very CLEAR about that.
And we would have learn it by some dialogues. Brown talking about the former M or anything like that. Like Bernard Fox talking about the former M or Judy Dench.
M is called M because his aka is taken from the first letter of his last name M-- Messervy
As Judy Dench plays M and her name is Barbara Mawdsley. M---Mawdsley.
If Robert Brown would habe been pomoted to the chief of MI6 he would have beeN called "H" and not M.
In The facts of death, Bond goes to a party organised by the former M (Sir Miles Messervy). And Admiral Hargreaves is present too. As an Admiral not a former H.

[Triton]

Of course Robert Brown is a promoted Admiral Hargreaves. No doubt about that.
As Gogol is a promoted Morzeny.
As Paula is a promoted gypsy girl
As Octopussy is a promoted Andrea Sanders.
As Jack Wade is a promoted Whitaker.

Well Cesari does indelicately make the point that Eon Productions does not let concerns for the continuity of the James Bond series over-rule their decisions to re-hire actors for different roles in later films of the series. Obviously, Broccoli had to recast the M part with the death of Bernard Lee or should he have continued to use James Villiers as Chief of Staff Bill Tanner as the head of the service?

To the best of my recollection, John Gardner never mentioned that M was Admiral Hargreaves in his novelizations of Licence to Kill or GoldenEye which were based on the scripts or that M had once been Flag Officer Submarines.

The literary continuity has a female M, Barbara Mawdsley, replacing Admiral Sir Miles Messervy. Of course the literary continuity has little to do with the continuity of the films.

Note that Bernard Lee's Sir Miles Messervy and Robert Brown's M were both pipe smokers. Also Robert Brown's M has the same taste in office decor as did Bernard Lee's Sir Miles. It's possible that this is just co-incidence and that both men share the same tastes, but you would presume that Robert Brown's M would have images of Royal Navy submarines in his office if he was the former Flag Officer Submarines and other items in his office that would reflect his personality. People tend to take pictures and other personal items when they leave a position.
But then again, Robert Brown's M isn't the curmudgeon played by Bernard Lee and Robert Brown's dialogue certainly is different from dialogue written for Lee.

I guess an answer to this question only really matters if you are writing fan fiction that is meant to fit in this period because I doubt that the literary series will ever revisit this period.

[Triton]

I'm just saying that Robert Brown being Admiral Hargreaves is as stupid as saying that Morzeny was promoted to Gogol just because the same actor was in two different Bond films.
And the idea that Brown is Hargreaves just because Messervy was a former admiral is nonsense for me.
I've never read those interviews of Michael Wilson but I don't think at all that Brown is a promoted Heargraves.
Bernard Lee died and they tried to find another actor to be Messervy.
Otherwise we would have had informations very CLEAR about that.
And we would have learn it by some dialogues. Brown talking about the former M or anything like that. Like Bernard Fox talking about the former M or Judy Dench.
M is called M because his aka is taken from the first letter of his last name M-- Messervy
As Judy Dench plays M and her name is Barbara Mawdsley. M---Mawdsley.
If Robert Brown would habe been pomoted to the chief of MI6 he would have beeN called "H" and not M.
In The facts of death, Bond goes to a party organised by the former M (Sir Miles Messervy). And Admiral Hargreaves is present too. As an Admiral not a former H.

Why do we presume that the M designation comes from an initial of Sir Miles Messervy's name? Why not have it be a joke on the real-life C designation of the British Secret Service and have it come from the first name of Sir Mansfield Smith- instead of his last? Or what if the M is an abreviation of Minister or Master?

Certainly, the real heads of the British Secret Service have the C designation from Sir Mansfield Smith- and tradition dictates that each head of the service is designated C despite their initials.

Plus we have the Fleming family claiming that the M designation was given to the head of the British Secret Service after Fleming's mother who Fleming called M.

[DLibrasnow]

I'm just saying that Robert Brown being Admiral Hargreaves is as stupid as saying that Morzeny was promoted to Gogol just because the same actor was in two different Bond films.
And the idea that Brown is Hargreaves just because Messervy was a former admiral is nonsense for me.
I've never read those interviews of Michael Wilson but I don't think at all that Brown is a promoted Heargraves.
Bernard Lee died and they tried to find another actor to be Messervy.
Otherwise we would have had informations very CLEAR about that.
And we would have learn it by some dialogues. Brown talking about the former M or anything like that. Like Bernard Fox talking about the former M or Judy Dench.
M is called M because his aka is taken from the first letter of his last name M-- Messervy
As Judy Dench plays M and her name is Barbara Mawdsley. M---Mawdsley.
If Robert Brown would habe been pomoted to the chief of MI6 he would have beeN called "H" and not M.
In The facts of death, Bond goes to a party organised by the former M (Sir Miles Messervy). And Admiral Hargreaves is present too. As an Admiral not a former H.

The M designation has NOTHING to do with the last name of the character. In the real British Secret Service the Head is named "C" regardless of what the persons name is. Where is the C in Stella Rimmington....Hmmm, I don't see one, but then maybe you do? Yet she was still referred to as "C"

Plus all self respecting Bond fans know that the M in the Fleming books is a reference to his Mother, which he affectionately referred to as M.

[CommanderBond]

oh here we go Dlib

I think he played M for the fact that IMDB says so


Licence to Kill (1989)
Directed by
John Glen

Writing credits (WGA)
Michael G. Wilson (written by) and
Richard Maibaum (written by) ...
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Genre: Action / Thriller (more)

Tagline: His bad side is a dangerous place to be. (more)

Plot Outline: James Bond leaves Her Majesty's Secret Service to stop an evil drug lord and avenge his best friend, Felix Leiter. (more) (view trailer)

User Comments: Best Bond Film Of The 80s (more)

User Rating: 6.2/10 (7,122 votes)

Cast overview, first billed only:
Timothy Dalton .... James Bond
Carey Lowell .... Pam Bouvier
Robert Davi .... Franz Sanchez
Talisa Soto .... Lupe Lamora
Anthony Zerbe .... Milton Krest
Frank McRae .... Sharkey
David Hedison .... Felix Leiter
Wayne Newton .... Professor Joe Butcher
Benicio Del Toro .... Dario
Anthony Starke .... Truman-Lodge
Everett McGill .... Ed Killifer
Desmond Llewelyn .... Q
Pedro Armend