102 replies to this topic

[Loomis]

Wanted to start a thread in which we can ask each other questions on the KILL BILL saga, and hopefully have them answered.

This thread will, of course, be Spoiler City - so, if you haven't yet seen the KILL BILL saga in its entirety, you're advised to, as Tarantino might say, get the hell outta Dodge, now.

This is NOT intended as a thread for reviews of the KILL BILL flicks, BTW (or for general comments about Tarantino). As I say, it's for questions. Why is it necessary? Well, Tarantino stuffs his films not only with in-jokes and movie references, but with unanswered questions and little sly hints about things (for instance, the sticking plaster on the back of Ving Rhames' neck in PULP FICTION, and the question of what's in the briefcase in the same film).

So, if you wanna know from which Japanese exploitation movie Tarantino ripped off the arrival-in-Tokyo scene in VOL 1, or whether it's hinted in VOL 2 that Elle Driver is the sister of TRUE ROMANCE's Alabama (made those two up, but you get the idea), this is the place to ask.

And I'll start the ball rolling with a question:

Does anyone feel that it's implied in VOL 2 that Bill is the bastard son of one of Estaban Vihaio's whores? I do.

[Loomis]

And another couple:

- Is it just me, or does Sofie Fatale take part in the wedding chapel massacre only in VOL 1? (She seems to be absent from VOL 2.) If so, this would be a major goof, only I've read that Tarantino deliberately included various flubs and continuity errors in tribute to the "grindhouse" B-movies he was inspired by.

- Does anyone know about the cut scene in which Bill fights Michael Jai White? I gather White's character name is Alburt, and there's a character in the original script (available to read on the Screenplays For You site) by that name, but the scene in which he appears in the screenplay doesn't seem to mesh with the brief clips of the fight I've seen. From those clips, it seems that the pair are fighting in an alley in a Chinese city, with the Bride looking on. Anyone know where the scene is set, what is happening in it, and how it relates to the story? Also, does anyone know of other deleted scenes likely to make it onto an eventual DVD release?

- Elle makes it clear (in VOL 1) that she never liked the Bride. Yet the Bride used to get on well with everyone else (in the same volume, we learn - via the "Silly rabbit"/"Trix are for kids" exchange - that the Bride and O-Ren were once real tight). Why the eternal bad blood with Elle? Here's my theory: Bill and Elle were once lovers (indeed, it seems to be implied in VOL 1 that Bill and Sofie were lovers, too), but Bill basically chucked Elle for the Bride. We know (from VOL 2) that Elle underwent the same training in China as the Bride, but that the Bride was always the better warrior. So Elle is [A] sexually jealous of the Bride, and [B] has an Alec Trevelyan/James Bond professional rivalry with her. The Bride is a younger, prettier and more gifted version of Elle, and Elle can't stand it. Thoughts? I mean, it ain't rocket science, but I'd be interested to see if anyone thinks I'm really barking up the wrong tree on this one.

[taxman2001]

Loomis,

I never got the feeling that Bill was the son of Estaban Vihaio. I tokk it more to be that Bill's mother had already given birth to Bill before she knew Estaban Vihaio.

As for Sofie Fatale ... well, again this is just me but, I think she and O-Ren were lovers and O-Ren wouldn't have wanted her lover somewhere she could get killed. She arrived with the Deadly Viper Assassination Squad but remained outisde until the chapel had been secured.

I don't know anything about the Bill vs Michael Jai White fight but I'll be looking for info online for it.

And Elle was just jealous. Wanted to be number one on Bill's eyes but could never be whilst The Bride was there. Therefore when she went on the lam, Elle saw this as a way to win the situation back her way. The only problem being that Bill came across as a one woman man (except about his daughter).

And now for a question of my own.

The Bride vs Elle. Elle loses. But is not dead. So does the snake get her or can we expect a kinda Johnny-Depp-in-Once-Upon-A-Time-In-Mexico-situation should Volume 3 arise?

And just as an aside ... I walked out of that film thinking (1) how cool Carridine still is and (2) Oscar nomination.

Edited by taxman2001, 02 May 2004 - 06:41 PM.

[Loomis]

I never got the feeling that Bill was the son of Estaban Vihaio. I tokk it more to be that Bill's mother had already given birth to Bill before she knew Estaban Vihaio.

No, no, I asked: "Does anyone feel that it's implied in VOL 2 that Bill is the bastard son of one of Estaban Vihaio's whores?" I meant, one of the whores and one of her clients, not Vihaio. Granted, there are no real grounds to come to this conclusion, but I kind of got the impression that Bill was the son of a whore and a client and grew up to become the leader of Vihaio's "boys", the gang of juvenile delinquents who ran the town's crime and who were ultimately controlled by Vihaio. And eventually, Vihaio came to respect Bill, recognising that he wasn't just your average young punk but someone with the potential to be a great leader, fearsome warrior and brilliant criminal. And so Vihaio became a father figure to Bill and bankrolled his first steps into becoming who he became.

Or maybe not. I guess only Tarantino knows the answer to that one. Maybe Bill just wandered into the brothel as a young man out for a good time and somehow ended up befriending Vihaio.

As for Sofie Fatale ... well, again this is just me but, I think she and O-Ren were lovers....

Now that's very interesting. I'd never thought of O-Ren and Sofie as lovers, but I can definitely see where you're coming from. There's more than a touch of Pussy Galore (as it were) about Sofie, and O-Ren probably has a bit of a loathing for men based on what happened during her childhood (tellingly, she has a female bodyguard, Gogo, who doesn't seem to like men much either). Yes, I can certainly see it. Good point about O-Ren making Sofie wait outside the chapel.

The Bride vs Elle. Elle loses. But is not dead. So does the snake get her or can we expect a kinda Johnny-Depp-in-Once-Upon-A-Time-In-Mexico-situation should Volume 3 arise?

Not seen ONCE UPON A TIME IN MEXICO, so I don't know what you're referring to, but I imagine Elle dies. (Even if she lives, she's totally blind and not much use as a fighter.) Either the snake gets her, or she simply flounders about in agony in the trailer until, eventually, a heart attack, or starvation, or massive blood loss, or something, claims her.

[taxman2001]

Ooppss, misread.

Yes, Bill's mother was a whore but I get the feeling she only became a whore after becoming Estaban Vihaio's lover. But the again I think that Estaban Vihaio road tested all his whores.

[Loomis]

I wonder whether the whore with the cut face is Tarantino's little tribute to UNFORGIVEN.

[Tarl_Cabot]

I saw it again last night and I LOVED IT JUST AS MUCH AS THE FIRST TIME!!! TARANTINO IS THE MAN TO SAVE 007 from mediocredy!

" Bill is the bastard son of one of Estaban Vihaio's whores?"

No.Bill never met his father so "he collected father figures":Horrato Hanzo, Pai Mei, Esteban and I'm sure he had a tour in Nam or CIA or something like that where he had a mentor we don't know of...

ELLE: probably just catty jealousy...Beatrix didn't lose an eye and since she learned the 5 finger strike it seems logical that she was an achiever who out performed her comrades-maybe that's why they betrayed her...? She was younger and prettier and although an assassin, seemed sweet and lovable! yes, she had professional and physical envy of her...


"- Does anyone know about the cut scene in which Bill fights Michael Jai White?"

Wait for the DVD for lost scenes. Should be a doozy!


Volume 3: QT said he'll do it in 15 years and the title(my conjecture)will be 'Kill Beatrix' because it's about Vernita green's daughter seeking revenge against the bride.She's just as deserving to get revenge as Uma...

Sofie Fatale wasn't a Viper Assassin so her absence from KBV2 wasn't an issue...that's why she was not killed but seriously harmed for guilt by association.

[Xenobia]

Wow...so many questions, so little time.

I am not sure if Bill was Estaban's son, but I wouldn't be surprised if his brother, Budd, was.

I think Sofie wasn't a lover of Bill, but he seems to have a certain affection for all the women around him. I don't think she and Oren were lovers; I think O-ren was so focused on revenge, much like the Bride was, that she didn't have time for anyone else. I do think Sofie probably drove the car that brought the Viper Assassins to the scene, so once all the killing was done, she made her appearance, ergo why we don't see her in Volume II.

I got the impression that the Bride and Bill had a long relationship. Maybe he had a hand in raising her, maybe not. But I do think Elle took to Bill's bed only AFTER Beatrix was gone. I do think she and the Bride never got along, but there was probably mutual respect, since they studied under the same people.

As for whether or not Elle is alive, the fact that we see the Black Mamba hissing as the Bride leaves, tells me Elle and Budd are going to have more in common than being DiVAS.

I'd like to see if Tarantino is still around in fifteen years to do KB V3. That could be fun.

-- Xenobia

[Tarl_Cabot]

Elle is alive and since the musical score of KBV1 played a riff of the theme from the martial arts cinema classic The Master of the flying Guillotine(which I own a copy of ), expect Elle to reapear in part 3 as a blind flying guillotine artist seeking revenge!

I take back Kill Beatrix as part 3. I think that will be part 4(like 'Once upon a time in the west' was Leione's 4th Spaggetti classic) and 3 will come soon enough...I suspect more of a Kung Fu film so we'll have a Samurai, western and Kung Fu movie to complete the trilogy before the Quadrilogy is finished in 2019!

[Loomis]

Tarl and Xen, some terrific points, as ever. This is what's so great about Tarantino - he leaves plenty of room for the viewer's own imagination to be brought into play, and one is on many things free to make up one's own mind.

Personally, I think KILL THE BRIDE would be a better title than KILL BEATRIX for a followup, but I'm beginning to think that there won't be a followup, a "quadrilogy", anime prequels, and so on and so forth. Of course, in many ways I'd love to see more of the KILL BILL "universe", but I reckon Tarantino will move on to other projects and other genres. I'm sure he doesn't want to spend tbe next 15 years or so doing little but reworking the KILL BILL saga. He's created a wonderful two-part epic (which Clarence, the hero of TRUE ROMANCE, would probably consider the coolest film ever made) that will be talked about for many years to come (and which in any case he'll be able to fiddle about with for future DVD re-releases), and I'm sure he'll be smart enough to leave it at that. Sure, we could explore the origins of Bill and the Bride, and we could have Nikki growing up and taking out the Bride (before, presumably, being herself hunted down by the Bride's daughter), but you gotta keep the momentum up for these things to be good (look at THE GODFATHER PART III).

Tarantino's next film has long been announced as the World War II "guys on a mission" flick INGLORIOUS BASTARDS, and after that I imagine he'll do a horror film, a comedy, or make another more "grown-up", character-driven piece like JACKIE BROWN. Yeah, I know he's talked about extending the KILL BILL saga, but then again he's often talked about doing THE VEGA BROTHERS and CASINO ROYALE. I very much doubt it'll happen.

[taxman2001]

I wouldn't be surprised if we saw an anim

[Loomis]

Was the whore with the cut mouth Daryl Hannah? Some people have said it was but I was too busy looking at the mouth to concentrate on the whole face ...

No, definitely not. The character, Clarita, is played by one Claire Smithies.

[taxman2001]

Ummmm, I thought that clarita was one of The Bride's friends in the church scene ...

[Loomis]

If memory serves, during the "film clip gallery" part of the closing credits, there's a shot of the whore with the cut mouth and a title reading: "CLAIRE SMITHIES AS CLARITA". I may be wrong on that, though, but I'm 100% certain that it's not Daryl Hannah.

[Tarl_Cabot]

What's with the mouth injury anyway? Yuck!

[Brix Bond]

(for instance, the sticking plaster on the back of Ving Rhames' neck in PULP FICTION, and the question of what's in the briefcase in the same film).

The film alludes to the briefcase containing Marcellus Wallace's soul. The sticky plaster is put over the area in the back of the neck typically associated with the removal of one's humanity.

[Xenobia]

Hmmmm the idea of anime prequal or sequal is interesting, but I would be more inclined to think that if anime was used, we'd see it in a video game version of the saga.

In that case, we may get both a prequal and sequal out of the deal.

-- Xenobia

[Double-Oh-Zero]

(for instance, the sticking plaster on the back of Ving Rhames' neck in PULP FICTION, and the question of what's in the briefcase in the same film).

The film alludes to the briefcase containing Marcellus Wallace's soul. The sticky plaster is put over the area in the back of the neck typically associated with the removal of one's humanity.

Really? I heard that it was actually by accident; Rhames had cut himself while shaving his head bald for the part, but Tarantino told him to leave the band-aid on. I suppose Tarantino knew better.

Anyway, another question.

Anyone think that the character of Rufus is actually Sam Jackson's character from Pulp Fiction, or at least a homage to him? Remember, he didn't die in PULP.

It's rumoured that Steve Buscemi's waitor character (dressed as Buddy Holly) from PULP is actually Mr. Pink from Reservoir Dogs, hiding from the police. I personally don't believe either of those, but I'm interested to hear other's thoughts.

Loomis, here's a picture I found on your scene in question (at least I think it is):

Attached Files

•  killbill_lg_20.jpg   47.99KB   3 downloads

[Max Zorin]

I've often wondered...in Vol 1, during the anime scene...is the Man in White who kills O-Ren's parents supposed to be Bill?

[00-FAN008]

I saw Kill Bill Vol. 2 yesterday. Ohhhhhhhh man, that is good stuff.
However, the second one didn't have any massive gore like the first one did.

[Loomis]

I've often wondered...in Vol 1, during the anime scene...is the Man in White who kills O-Ren's parents supposed to be Bill?

I really don't think so. If that were the case, wouldn't O-Ren want revenge on Bill?

[Max Zorin]

Did she see his face though? She was under the bed at the time. I haven't seen it in a while, so my recollection is a bit off.

[Xenobia]

Hmmm...the man in white = Bill? Me thinks not. I think he backed O-Ren financially to take over the Yakuza, but I don't think he had many connections there, nor do I think the sword member would have trained him if Bill was Yakuza.

Besides, O-Ren would have found out it was him, and killed him.

-- Xenobia

[Loomis]

The Bride vs Elle. Elle loses. But is not dead. So does the snake get her or can we expect a kinda Johnny-Depp-in-Once-Upon-A-Time-In-Mexico-situation should Volume 3 arise?

Hey, taxman, I finally have the answer to this. The answer is:

Elle may be alive. Then again, she may not be.

Watch the closing credits to VOL 2 (the rather useless second credits for the main actors that play over the shots of Thurman driving to find Bill - useless as they follow the montage-from-both-films credits that have named the main actors already):

A line appears through the names of the Deadly Vipers who've been killed. However, a question mark pops up next to Elle's name (or maybe just Darryl Hannah's name, can't remember). So the answer to the question of whether she survived is:

?

Tarantino, that cheeky so-and-so.

[Harmsway]

The Bride vs Elle. Elle loses. But is not dead. So does the snake get her or can we expect a kinda Johnny-Depp-in-Once-Upon-A-Time-In-Mexico-situation should Volume 3 arise?

Hey, taxman, I finally have the answer to this. The answer is:

Elle may be alive. Then again, she may not be.

Watch the closing credits to VOL 2 (the rather useless second credits for the main actors that play over the shots of Thurman driving to find Bill - useless as they follow the montage-from-both-films credits that have named the main actors already):

A line appears through the names of the Deadly Vipers who've been killed. However, a question mark pops up next to Elle's name (or maybe just Darryl Hannah's name, can't remember). So the answer to the question of whether she survived is:

?

Tarantino, that cheeky so-and-so.

Ooh. That's very interesting. Very interesting indeed. I hope he doesn't end up making Volume 3, though, just because I think Kill Bill is a good complete arc as it is and I'd rather have it left alone.

[Loomis]

I hope he doesn't end up making Volume 3, though, just because I think Kill Bill is a good complete arc as it is and I'd rather have it left alone.

Same here. I think if Tarantino were to go back to the KILL BILL "property" a few years from now, it'd just be a GODFATHER III situation.

Still, I guess it might be cool to have a Beatrix Kiddo franchise, showing our heroine on various missions, produced or executive produced by Tarantino but not written or directed by him. One low budget film every year, with directing duties given to Tarantino's favourite cult filmmakers - Wong Kar-Wai, Takashi Miike and so on, and probably with different actresses playing the Thurman role.

BTW, the current issue of Empire reviews the VOL 2 DVD, and the writer makes a good argument for not releasing KILL BILL in two parts but instead releasing it as one mammoth epic:

"....to understand just how much damage was inflicted on Vol. 2 - as opposed to Vol. 1 - by ... the consequent decision to hack the film in half, consider The Bride's reaction to the revelation that her presumed-dead foetus survived and has been raised by her nemesis. Physically exhausted, emotionally spent and in total shock, Thurman - in her best moment - sinks to her knees.

QT designed this twist so that we would share not only Kiddo's pain, but her fatigue and her surprise also. Following the original blueprint, the audience would barely have recovered from the bloody Blue Leaves battle and we would have NO IDEA the unborn child had survived - instead, we've coasted through an incident-packed but hardly shattering 90 minutes waiting for Kiddo to discover what we already know, and for an action climax to rival Vol. 1's set-piece that never arrives."

ETA: The same issue of Empire carries an ad for the upcoming DVD release of KILLING ZOE. The front cover artwork screams in large lettering (larger than that spelling out the names of Eric Stoltz, Jean-Hugues Anglade and Julie Delpy): "FROM THE DIRECTOR OF KILL BILL QUENTIN TARANTINO" (no mention of the film's director, Roger Avary). How cheeky is that?

[Harmsway]

BTW, the current issue of Empire reviews the VOL 2 DVD, and the writer makes a good argument for not releasing KILL BILL in two parts but instead releasing it as one mammoth epic:

"....to understand just how much damage was inflicted on Vol. 2 - as opposed to Vol. 1 - by ... the consequent decision to hack the film in half, consider The Bride's reaction to the revelation that her presumed-dead foetus survived and has been raised by her nemesis. Physically exhausted, emotionally spent and in total shock, Thurman - in her best moment - sinks to her knees.

QT designed this twist so that we would share not only Kiddo's pain, but her fatigue and her surprise also. Following the original blueprint, the audience would barely have recovered from the bloody Blue Leaves battle and we would have NO IDEA the unborn child had survived - instead, we've coasted through an incident-packed but hardly shattering 90 minutes waiting for Kiddo to discover what we already know, and for an action climax to rival Vol. 1's set-piece that never arrives."

I'm dying to see it in complete form! I honestly think I didn't enjoy Vol. 2 as much because it had been split up. Can't wait for his NC-17 complete cut on dvd.

[Qwerty]

Just saw Tarantino last night as I was flipping through the channels. He was on a Jimmy Kimmel talk show, quite eccentric.

[Harmsway]

Just saw Tarantino last night as I was flipping through the channels. He was on a Jimmy Kimmel talk show, quite eccentric.

Yeah, he's a weird one. I'm really not that big of a Tarantino fan, but I can appreciate his stuff. Kill Bill was just amazing - one of the best films in years.

[Qwerty]

Definitely. I loved it.