102 replies to this topic

[Carver]

Why does everybody think that TD is the best Bond? I know everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but I did'nt think he was the best. Sure he is a capable actor, and I don't rank him last in the 'best Bonds' table, but what is it about him that makes you guys like him? Am I the only one on these forums, or the world, that thinks that Connery was, is, the best Bond?
Oh [cuss], I'm gonna get so many people having a go at me now

[Carver]

Hmmm. I see your point Ritz, but I still think that SC IS Bond, and that he was better than TD. So, Ritz, you return? Have'nt seen you on these forums for ages.

[RITZ]

I've been busy lately(exams, assignments for university)

Connery is a legend - no doubt about it mate! His 007 was very cool, but my point is that Dalton did well to portray the literary 007.

[RITZ]

This is a great topic you've rasied here mate.
I think Dalton is popular with many CBN members, including me, because he came very close to Fleming's interpretation of 007. Dalton brought a harder edge Bond and made him more realistic - his acting experience had helped him too. I think Dalton's debut as 007 came at the right moment- Bond films were getting a bit too unreal and humorous and TLD brought a new edge to Bond films.

I'm NOT saying that other Bond actors were bad - I loved them:

Connery actually "looked" like the real James Bond from the novels and he did a wonderful job as 007. Mention the words "JAMES BOND" and the word Connery will always come to mind. If you have see any interviews with the past/present Bond actors, they have mentioned Connery. He was an idol to Bond fans and even Bond actors who have stepped into his shoes.

Moore brought more warmth and a new kind of humour to the films and fans loved it - I have a soft spot for Rog too(!).

Lazenby's OHMSS has turned out to be one of the greatest cult films ever. It is a beautiful film and respected by many 007 fans - young and old.


James Bond will live forever..................

[0013]

In my opinion, Timothy Dalton was the best for two reasons. #1: If you've read the original novels, you realize that Dalton looks like Bond, according to Fleming's description of him. #2: When Dalton was cast, he went back and read all the original novels, and drew his character from what Fleming had written.

Carver (24 May, 2002 09:48 p.m.):
Why does everybody think that TD is the best Bond? I know everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but I did'nt think he was the best. Sure he is a capable actor, and I don't rank him last in the 'best Bonds' table, but what is it about him that makes you guys like him? Am I the only one on these forums, or the world, that thinks that Connery was, is, the best Bond?
Oh [cuss], I'm gonna get so many people having a go at me now

[Jim]

Carver (24 May, 2002 09:48 p.m.):
Am I the only one on these forums, or the world, that thinks that Connery was, is, the best Bond?

No, you're not

[General Koskov]

Personally, I like all of 'em. My only problem is that I later found out Moore purposely played the humourous side of 007 to be 'different' from Connery's interpretation.

His explanation was that Lazenby had 'copied' Connery's style, and look where he went. Well, to me that's a little shallow towards Lazenby. Also, Moore's interpretation is like the next Superman actor 'playing down' the superpowers and having him get hurt all the time. It's a character, not a part written specifically for Moore.

The reason why Connery/Lazenby/Dalton played Bond the way they did was because that's how Fleming wrote the character. The reason this aggrivates me so is that Moore obviously is a good serious actor and played Bond extremely well from The Spy Who Loved Me on (though Moonraker was so silly, one cannot expect to see Moore serious throughout it).

[Hardyboy]

I don't believe that Dalton was the best Bond, but he was certainly the best cast Bond. As others have pointed out here, he really fits Ian Fleming's description of Bond to a T--tall, slender, dark-haired, handsome but with a hard and cruel element to his looks. . .all that's missing is a scar on his cheek. Dalton also did everything he could to be faithful to Bond and Fleming wrote him, and I think this alone won him a place in the hearts of us fans of Fleming's novels.

However, the best screen Bond, in my opinion, remains Sean Connery--he embodied the machismo side of Fleming's character, but he also added a touch of humor and self-parody that was in keeping with the sixties and which still seems refreshing today.

[freemo]

I think Moore was brilliant, yes, it could be said that Moore was "playing Roger Moore playing James Bond" if you know what I mean, but what entertaining take on the role it was. I rank Connery and Moore as the best Bonds because I've always though that you're supposed to "want to be Bond". I want to be Connery's Bond, I want to be Moore's Bond, but I don't want to be Brosnan's, Dalton's or Lazenby's Bond.

[Donovan]

Here's why I liked Dalton very much:

In the mid-1980s, I read all the Fleming books. Up to this point I was a fairly big Roger Moore Bond fan, still am to a degree. But after reading the books, I became more of an Ian Fleming Bond fan. "Live And Let Die" was one of my favorite Bond novels, and I thought it was a real shame that it was never properly adapted. In terms of the films, I was very disappointed with "A View To A Kill". I did not think it was either a good film, nor a good Bond film.

Now Bond, as I had envisioned him from the novels, was like a cross between Connery (for the athleticism and worldly persona) and Timothy Dalton (for the saturnine aura). As I saw stills of Dalton as Bond, I was amazed at how closely he looked to how I imagined Fleming's Bond.

In the film, he immediately won me over from the beginning. There are several key scenes that I thought made him Bond. First, the line about "if M. fires me, I'll thank him for it." That was great, very out of Flemingesque. Can you imagine Roger Moore saying that? Second, the scene where he confronts Pushkin in the hotel was also very tense. This was very refreshing. The first act was pretty good. When we get to Afghanistan, the film unravels.

I think that a new director would have been in order. I don't like certain aspects of the plot, either. Dalton is an actor with a theater background. Stage actors tend to project physically more than they need to on film. If a director were there to, well, direct him in certain scenes, I think that might have helped. Not that there's really anything wrong with Dalton's performance, but I wonder if his talent didn't intimidate John Glen a bit. Glen is an ace at action scenes (which, conversely, Michael Apted was not. He was much better at dramatic scenes). Well anyway, to sum up, I liked Dalton, and find it unfortunate that circumstances prevented him from finding his proper niche in the series.

-Joe

[IrishCrown]

On the opposite side of the fence, here's my take on Dalton:
1. Dalton getting his *** kicked in the fight in the truck just before it goes over the cliff. The man is a wimp. The same Bond that went up against Red Grant on the Orient Express? Nope. The same Bond who single-handedly took on the crew of the Disco Volante? Not even.
2. Dalton was monogamous in his first one. Yeah, Fleming might've done that in his books, but when the movie came out, they made a big deal out of political correctness and bringing Bond into the 80s. All of the fun went right out the airlock with Hugo Drax. They tried to dirty it up with License To Kill, but by that time, no one cared anymore.
3. Dalton is not a goodlooking guy. He's more of a villain's henchman or a villain. See The Rocketeer and/or Flash Gordon if you're into that kind of thing.
4. Men want to be Bond. Women want to be with Bond. Sean Connery and Pierce Brosnan have both been People Magazines' Sexiest Men Alive. Has Dalton? Has Lazenby? Has Moore? These guys have something those guys don't have. Mojo, baby!
5. Dalton's climactic fights were embarrassments. He was pissing in his pants when Joe Don Baker was coming after him. He got thrown around like a little girl by Necros in the back of the plane. The music accompanying the scene was good, at least. He almost got killed by pineapple face Robert Davi.
6. Carey Lowell was the wrong Bond girl in the wrong movie. I liked her, at least. I hated Talisa Soto. Maryam D'Abo was like the sister of Tanya Roberts. They even shared the same type of post-Bond career.
7. Dalton kept telling people there wasn't going to be anymore Bond movies after License To Kill. He kept telling people that this was the last one, yada, yada, yada. Well, it damned near was, thanks to him. When your Bond movie is outgrossed by even a film like Star Trek V, you know you have a problem.

There is a reason Dalton is seen mostly on the fringes these days. You might see him on Showtime or the Fox Family Channel, but Thank God that is it. The man almost killed James Bond, for God's Sake.

[Carver]

Originally posted by IrishCrown
On the opposite side of the fence, here's my take on Dalton:
1.  Dalton getting his *** kicked in the fight in the truck just before it goes over the cliff.  The man is a wimp.  The same Bond that went up against Red Grant on the Orient Express?  Nope.  The same Bond who single-handedly took on the crew of the Disco Volante?  Not even.  
2.  Dalton was monogamous in his first one.  Yeah, Fleming might've done that in his books, but when the movie came out, they made a big deal out of political correctness and bringing Bond into the 80s.  All of the fun went right out the airlock with Hugo Drax.  They tried to dirty it up with License To Kill, but by that time, no one cared anymore.  
3.  Dalton is not a goodlooking guy.  He's more of a villain's henchman or a villain.  See The Rocketeer and/or Flash Gordon if you're into that kind of thing.  
4.  Men want to be Bond.  Women want to be with Bond.  Sean Connery and Pierce Brosnan have both been People Magazines' Sexiest Men Alive.  Has Dalton?  Has Lazenby?  Has Moore?  These guys have something those guys don't have.  Mojo, baby!
5.  Dalton's climactic fights were embarrassments.  He was pissing in his pants when Joe Don Baker was coming after him.  He got thrown around like a little girl by Necros in the back of the plane.  The music accompanying the scene was good, at least.  He almost got killed by pineapple face Robert Davi.  
6.  Carey Lowell was the wrong Bond girl in the wrong movie.  I liked her, at least.  I hated Talisa Soto.  Maryam D'Abo was like the sister of Tanya Roberts.  They even shared the same type of post-Bond career.  
7.  Dalton kept telling people there wasn't going to be anymore Bond movies after License To Kill.  He kept telling people that this was the last one, yada, yada, yada.  Well, it damned near was, thanks to him.  When your Bond movie is outgrossed by even a film like Star Trek V, you know you have a problem.  

There is a reason Dalton is seen mostly on the fringes these days.  You might see him on Showtime or the Fox Family Channel, but Thank God that is it.  The man almost killed James Bond, for God's Sake.

You took the words right out of my mouth:). Dalton did, in fact, bring down the Bond series, after LTK, we had that 6 year wait, until Saint Pierce Brosnan and Saint Cubby Broccoli brought Bond back from the dead. Dalton was **** in his fight scenes, getting his *** kicked by one man is never the same Bond swimming the gauntlet in TB, fighting the two heavies in TSWLm, and killing the most dangerous man alive in FRWL. I have always said that Dalton was not a good looking guy (and I'm not god's gift to women), and now IC has come out and said it, thank you for saying that IC, you're the only person who has agreed with me:).

[IrishCrown]

Oh, My God...I am glad I ran into someone who shares the same thoughts. Moreoever, I would rather watch any of the 3 Austin Powers movies than any of the Dim Dalton movies. They are at least fun in their own way.

[Carver]

Lol, I agree there IC, Austin Powers is probably a better secret agent than Dalton.

[JimmyBond]

I would respond to IrishCrown's post, but he obviously has no idea what makes Bond work, so I will not.

[Bondpurist]

Timothy Dalton simply outshone all of his predecessors because of one simple fact - he kept to the James Bond of Ian Fleming's novels. Timothy Dalton's James Bond is a cold, ruthless, clever professional,just like Fleming's Bond, not a bumbling, wisecracking fool like Roger Moore's Bond, or an overgrown schoolboy, like Connery's Bond.

Austin Powers is probably a better secret agent than Dalton

How can you say that? Dalton's Bond was a cunning, efficient spy, the perfect secret agent. Secret agents aren't meant to make a spectacle of themselves like Connery did, nor are they meant to make stupid jokes like Moore - they are meant to be almost exactly like Dalton's Bond. Dalton is ruthless and serious - when he breaks into Pushkin's hotel room in TLD and smashes Pushkin with his Gun butt then roughly strips Pushkin's girlfriend's clothes off, when he headbutts the KGB assasin in the pre-credits sequence, when he goes off to seek sweet revenge on Sanchez, when he does all of these things he proves his ruthless, Flemingian edge, an edge that no Bond before him had.
As well as his downright nasty side, a nasty side very eminent in the novels and Dalton's films- for example in the novel Live and Let Die Bond kicks Mr Big's henchman to the sharks- Dalton also provides Bond with a vulnerable side - he doesn't win every fight without a hitch -he takes some punishment before finally out witting and out fighting his enemy, something that happened in literally every book. As well as that he is a tad more sensitive - he takes Kara back to get her Cello, he takes her to the fairground, he offers to buy her clothes, adding a deep and multi dimensional side never before seen in a Bond film, but regularly seen in the books -in every book apart from one or two small exceptions Bond was monogamous(Like the film TLD) and he at least gave the girls the pretence that he loved them, just like the brilliant Dalton.
More obvious is the fact that Dalton actually looks like the Bond described in the Books with dark hair and clear eyes that are actually green, but with enough grey tint to them to suffice. His good looks are cruel and mean, just like the original, literary Bond. Roger Moore was not good looking enough, with brown hair and eyes not ruthless enough for Bond. Sean Connery's looks were good enough, but his offhand mannor and habit of making himself the centre of attention (which would be deadly for a secret agent) betray Fleming's wonderful books.

Timothy Dalton saved the Bond films. Without his serious, quietly brilliant portrayal, countering the awful slapstick comedy and cheap laughs of earlier films Bond would have fizzled out - cheap laughs die but gritty, realistic, artistically fruitful thrillers, such as The Living Daylights and especially Licence to Kill last forever. He SAVED Bond from the idiots that wouldn't know a Fleming novel if it landed on his head. None of Sean Connery, George Lazenby, Roger Moore nor Pierce Brosnan are fit to LICK DALTON'S BOOTS!

Just to answer a few of Irishcrown's points;

-

Dalton getting his *** kicked in the fight in the truck just before it goes over the cliff. The man is a wimp

Dalton is not responsible for what it says in the stage directions in the script. Anyway, Bond is comfortably winning the fight, and cannot be expected to defeat someone in a fight and come out unscathed. It's called REALISM Irishcrown. Dalton is quite clearly not a wimp.
-

Dalton was monogamous in his first one.

Bond was virtually always Monogamous in the books, and the sublime Kara is worth 5 normal Bond girls. Irishcrown obviously doesn't care much for the books, but seeing as Fleming created Bond, I think they're worth taking note of.

-

Dalton is not a good looking guy.

What absolute tommyrot. He is tall, dark and was quite heart throb as Mr Rochester in Jane Eyre. He makes women swoon, and is quite out of Roger Moore or Sean Connery's league.

-

Dalton's climactic fights were embarrassments. He was pissing in his pants when Joe Don Baker was coming after him. He got thrown around like a little girl by Necros in the back of the plane.

Don't make me laugh! He outwitted Necros as well as giving him some real punishment on the net near the end. As for Whittaker - pissing himself? on what grounds do you say that? none at all! He keeps his composure, and cleverly uses his ingenious keyring to bring Whittaker to his waterloo. His fights are stylish, realistic and exciting. Would Connery of beaten Grant without his Briefcase? NO! Was there anyone as tough as Necros on the Disco Volante? NO! Dalton was more of a man than Connery, the pathetic little schoolboy that Connery was.

-

Carey Lowell was the wrong Bond girl in the wrong movie. I liked her, at least. I hated Talisa Soto. Maryam D'Abo was like the sister of Tanya Roberts. They even shared the same type of post-Bond career.

Carey Lowell was tough, resourceful and determined, the perfect Bond girl to aid the vengeful Bond n LTK. Talisa Soto gave an impressive performance as the sullen captive of Sanchez, her bored yet intense nature coming through quite naturally. If you hated her Irishcrown, you could have given a reason instead of just saying you hated her. As for Maryam D'abo, she was one of the few talented, determined and tough yet still feminine and romantic Bond girls ever. She is interesting and believable, innocent but brave and fiercely self sufficient, and she complimented Dalton quite beautifully.

-

Dalton kept telling people there wasn't going to be anymore Bond movies after License To Kill. He kept telling people that this was the last one, yada, yada, yada. Well, it damned near was, thanks to him. When your Bond movie is outgrossed by even a film like Star Trek V, you know you have a problem.  

He said that because of the legal difficulties between Licence to Kill and Goldeneye. If philistines can't stand the real Bond then that is their problem and if they won't see a real Bond film then ditto.

To sum up, Dalton's superb, cruel, ruthless, yet sometimes vulnerable and occasionally sensitive Bond encapuslated Fleming's brilliant novels perfectly. His realistic, gritty performances saved Bond from the tragic View to a Kill and the other Moore atrocities. That is why people think that Dalton is the best.

Those who don't like Dalton don't like the real Bond. They like what Bond has evolved into through the whims of those who want to make money, and not Flemingian Bond films.

[JimmyBond]

While I dont agree with Bondpurists very last paragraph (the bit about if you dont like Dalton you dont like the real Bond) I agree with everything else he had said, and I would have made the same points if I was going to respond to some of the criticisms of Dalton.

[IrishCrown]

Oh, how could I have missed this one? Bondpurist, bravo. {clapping} The old I'm right and everyone else is wrong and doesn't know Bond-attitude will win you a lot of friends in this world. I'm curious, though, if you don't like any of the other Bonds--and Tim only made 2--don't you get tired of watching the same Bond films over and over? Just wondering.

[Bondpurist]

I was just expressing my opinion. jimmybond agreed with me. I don't really care what you think. In my opinion I am right and you are wrong - it's the same with everyone. I do like the other films, just not as much as LTK and TLD.

[mrmoon]

Bonpurist before I make my comments - scientists have actually proved Timothy Dalton is not the virgin mary.

On with my reply-

I would like to start by saying I do like Dalton a lot, he provides 2 brilliant films, that are a great alternative to the majority of the series.

However, you say Daltons Bond was a cold ruthless spy - can't say he maintained that persona while riding the big dipper in his tux, possibly one of the worst scenes in the series.

You say Moore was a bumbling, wisecracking fool, and Connery was an overgrown schoolboy. Why is it then, that Ian Fleming considered Roger Moore as the cinematic Bond. I cant believe you dismiss two legendary Bonds so whimsically, you call Moore's films atrocious, I call you atrocious. I dont have a problem atall with someone liking one Bond better than another, but I think you should understand you do not take the stance of the majority. You've made some great points about Dalton encapsulating Fleming's Bond and why you personally believe he is the best. I dont understand why you have to decry the other Bond's to make your point.

As for you saying Dalton saved the series, you are simply clutching at straws. Dalton did nothing of the kind. Brosnan saved the Bond series, and that is coming from someone who doesn't believe Pierce to be the best, it is fact. Sometimes you have to accept what you do not want to. Unfortunately the world of James Bond does not revolve around Ian Fleming anymore sad is it may seem. Just because I'm a Roger Moore fan doesn't mean I dont like Ian Fleming. You don't have to kiss Ian fleming's to be a Bond fan. It is accepted people have differing opinions.

[Bondpurist]

Alright, alright. Sean Connery was a good Bond at times - in fighting scenes and action bits as well as other scenes Connery was excellent. Brosnan is good too but Timothy Dalton pulled the series back from the brink after Roger Moore's embarrassing performances riddled with overt humour and unflemingian one liners - his refreashing, serious performances, as well as his emotional acting was such a contrast and gave Brosnan a good basis for being Bond, a decent, serious Bond - every Brosnan film has at some point borrowed heavily from Dalton's serious portrayal. Okay, the fairground scenes weren't quite in the cold, ruthless spy persona but Dalton ONLY DID WHAT WAS IN THE SCRIPT! He doesn't choose what goes in there. Anyway, it was only a plot device so that Bond could win Kara's trust and get closer to Koskov's plotting and scheming. As for Ian Fleming's opinions on Moore - Fleming was old and probably a bit mad. How was he to know what a dog's breakfast Moore was going to make of it!
Perhaps I was a bit hard on the other Bonds, but everyone makes Connery out to be some sort of saint when he it's only because he was the first actor to play Bond. As for Roger Moore - I think TMWTGG and AVTAK say more than my words ever could.

[mrmoon]

Originally posted by Bondpurist
As for Roger Moore - I think TMWTGG and AVTAK say more than my words ever could.

Not for me they dont, thats the stereotypical 'I haven't seen Roger's films that much so Ill go with the masses' answer. I'd like you to explain.

[Carver]

Well, I haven't the time to read all the long posts, but one thing that did stand out was Bondpurist saying that Dalton saved the series. WHAT?!? Are you crazy, he brought the series down! Don't you remember, after LTK, there was a 6 year long wait, and then along came our Pierce and saved the day! Brozzy saved the series, thats how I see it!

[Bondpurist]

The wait was because the company that owned the rights to Bond was sold and the new owners wanted to sell the Bond rights. There was a long legal battle which was resolved by 'Goldeneye'. The reason I say he saved the series was because he brought the seriousness back and made two Bond films that were actually credible thrillers instead of slapstick comedies, a la Moore. If he hadn't then the audiences would of tired of stupid farcical humour and the Bond series would of died. I know the box office for LTK wasn't great but box office success isn't everything, and worldwide it did better than AVTAK. A film can be great and still have rubbish box office takings.

[Carver]

So, what if Brozzy had taken up the role as expected before Dalton?

[mrmoon]

Are you going to answer my question Bondpurist?

[RossMan]

TD is my favorite Bond because I am fan of the literary/Fleming's Bond (probably more so than the movies even)so for me it's great to see someone playing Bond who perfectly portrays the original character as he was meant to be. And I think his two movies are two of the series' best, TLD even being my personal favorite.

I still like the other Bonds, of course. It's obvious that the film makers don't really care about having someone who can play Fleming's character or staying faithful to Fleming's material so you just have to live with it and accept it.

Roger didn't take the role too seriously, but when he did, I thought he was great. I loved FYEO.

[IrishCrown]

Bondpurist, your comments above almost scare me until I start to visualize you sitting where you are typing this. I feel sorry for you. With your against the world attitude you're not exactly winning points on this board with your attitude. I've tried to come to a middle ground with you, but you keep up with your attitude, and it's sad. When faced with facts, you back pedal and sometimes face reality, and then you spit in my face and go right at it again. Why do you do all of this?

[Bondpurist]

Irishcrown, why do you keep trying to provoke me? I can't see anything wrong with that last post. Just because I disagree with you you are trying to discredit me. Anyway. I don't spend 24 hours a day on here Mrmoon, and I've only just seen your post. In TMWTGG Roger Moore plays Bond as an awful, comic character, always joking around. He never took it seriously, except in FYEO and very brief moments in a few other films. He acted as if it was all a big joke, as if he was invincible and knew he never could be killed. Well, we all know that he's never going to be killed, but Bond doesn't - Moore's range of emotions was very limited - there was the 'amused' emotion, the 'very amused emotion' and the indifferent look, whenever he was fighting. He was never particularly romantic, angry, annoyed, vengeful - his acting was one track and very boring. He acted as if he didn't care. These faults were magnified in AVTAK and TMWTGG. They are of course not without merit - all Bond films have some merit and are partially enjoyable but Moore detracted from that a great deal.

[IrishCrown]

I am not trying to provoke you, dear boy, I just can't quite get into your frame of mind about how the rest of the world is wrong and you are right. That's a bit disturbing especially when you have proven you don't even know a great deal about Bond--ie, you didn't even know about Hoagy Charmichael, Fleming's original choice of Roger Moore, and his initial dislike of Sean Connery.