30 replies to this topic

[JimmyBond]

With Goldeneye we had Micheal France, then several writers until Fierstien wrote the final draft. Tomorrow Never Dies started and ended with Fierstien, with as many as five screenwriters brough in for rewrites. The World is Not enough started with P&W, Dana Stevens was brought in, and Fierstien aslo had a crack at it.

Now we have Bond 20, so far P&W are the only two mentioned, and now the thing is going in front of the cameras Monday and we havent heard anything about any other screenwrters.

So are P&W the only two working on this film? If so, that should almost guarantee that we're gonna get an interesting final product.

[Jacques Nexus]

mccartney007 (13 Jan, 2002 07:07 p.m.):

JimmyBond (13 Jan, 2002 08:04 a.m.):
His name isnt Ben Willcock by any chance is it? I thought this was bogus info, I got it from the IMDB forum on Bond 20.

No, that wasn't it. It believe his name started with a J but I don't recall. I need to start taking this stuff down!

Not John Cox (zencat), by any chance ? .

[zencat]

White Persian (14 Jan, 2002 08:46 p.m.):

[b]rubixcub (14 Jan, 2002 08:39 Feirstein...wasn't pleased with the way TWINE turned out (he had suggested a different ending and fate for Elektra, but was outvoted; there were other things he didn't like as well.

Elektra's fate was one of the best moments in the film. I wonder what Feirstein's alternative was.

I agree. I wonder if Feirstein objected to Bond shooting a woman (and a lover) in cold blood? Frankly, I think this was one of the best moments in TWINE and one of the bravest things Eon has ever done with Bond.

I don't know this for a fact, but I sense Eon and Fierstein had a falling out. It could very well have been about the writing credits on TWINE. I don't think Fierstein deserved a credit on that film. He should have bowed out and let P&W take sole credit in the way a whole legion of writers did for him on TND. I think it may have gotten ugly.

[White Persian]

[b]rubixcub (14 Jan, 2002 08:39 Feirstein...wasn't pleased with the way TWINE turned out (he had suggested a different ending and fate for Elektra, but was outvoted; there were other things he didn't like as well.

Elektra's fate was one of the best moments in the film. I wonder what Feirstein's alternative was.

[mccartney007]

JimmyBond (13 Jan, 2002 08:04 a.m.):
His name isnt Ben Willcock by any chance is it? I thought this was bogus info, I got it from the IMDB forum on Bond 20.

No, that wasn't it. It believe his name started with a J but I don't recall. I need to start taking this stuff down!

[Mister Asterix]

I agree with Whitey P. Elektra's was one of the great death's of the series. I wonder what Mr. Real-Men-Don't-Eat-Quiche wanted.

[PaulZ108]

Last I heard, some guy named John Cox got called in to help with the rewrites.

[JimmyBond]

Cant say I agree or disagree about the Ski chase, though I do feel it doesnt feel out of place, and it does further the plot in a way. I also like the stealing of the nuke, that action scene fits into the film very well too. Its the Caviar sequence that is hard to swallow, though I dont dislike it either.

I cant see Fierstien returning soon. Brosnan wants to take Bond's character where he has never been before. Fierstien's "Bond should be fun" doesnt quite gel with Brosnan's realism request.

Lets wait and see how Bond20 turns out before we pass judgement on P&W. Perhaps they learned from there mistakes and have turned in a very well rounded script.

[JimmyBond]

I thought something was fishy when I did a search for his name and nothing came up. I will never believe any rumors from Bond20.com

[Tim007]

Ben Willock, I think, was the writer of the Bond20.com plot last August...

[JimmyBond]

I think Fierstien is all wrong for Bond. Its good that he's sitting this one out.

As for P&W, I hope they become the Richard Maibaum of future Bond films.

[James Page]

Tim007 (13 Jan, 2002 01:40 p.m.):
Ben Willock, I think, was the writer of the Bond20.com plot last August...

Ah yes, he was.
We uncovered him as a lowly computer games hacker (no offense to anyone in the industry

His ultimate downfall was adding himself to the credits on IMDB. What is it will people? Why do they give clues to themselves? And I though all these detective stories where the criminals lead them to their door were make believe.... ;-)

[rubixcub]

JimmyBond (14 Jan, 2002 10:29 p.m.):
I cant see Fierstien returning soon. Brosnan wants to take Bond's character where he has never been before. Fierstien's "Bond should be fun" doesnt quite gel with Brosnan's realism request.

Well, I dunno, I think you can have it both ways. I'm not sure it's really realism that Brosnan is requesting, merely some push and pull on the character, not simply remaining static. I feel that GoldenEye gave us the best of both worlds, and while it didn't feel like ALL cylinders were firing spot on it did strike a good balance between the fun and serious aspects, adding the aspect of a friendship betrayed to the usual formula. TWINE went even further, but was also a little confusing to follow, at least at first. Also, some of the "drama" scenes were just plain bad, particularly Bond's confrontation with Elektra after the missile silo sequence (rife with cliches). Hopefully Tamahori & co. will know where to edit the cliched lines better than Apted (directors get some script input too, if I'm not mistaken) and film it better visually (don't remember if I've ever seen anything Tattersall has filmed). I think TWINE didn't feel as cohesive as it could've been. We only ever saw part of a room, brief shots of exteriors and few connectors. In the beginning of GE when Bond goes to the casino, we see a terrific sweeping shot showing us the whole locale, and follow him through the casino and back out through a mime performance. Nice incidental event, the sort of thing that's happening that Bond just passes through (we didn't see any of these in TWINE). In TWINE, when we see the casino we just see the front door for a second, and I for one couldn't get a feel for what the place looked like, how it was laid out, like I could for the casino in GE. The Bilbao office, Scottish MI6, and Elektra's house gave me the same problem.

Still, for all it's faults I think TWINE had a more Bondian way than GE and TND, which felt kind of like action films starring Pierce Brosnan rather than James Bond films. Bond was more cerebral in TWINE, harkening back to his Dr. No days. Hope the next one can balance the elements (isn't that all they do, pretty much? Some do it more successfully than others.)

Dave

[rafterman]

I like Purvis and Wade and would like to see them stick around, no more Fierstein please, I don't like his take on Elektra's fate, but I would like to see Wilson take a more active hand in writing the films if he could find the time, his scripts with Maibaum are pretty good and despite criticisms on the film I find his Licence to Kill script to be fairly tight....

[R]

You know, I think we've cracked it...

I had that same nagging feeling about TWINE that something wasn't quite right, but couldn't [i]quite[/q] work out what it was. Apart from one notable exception, you never really got a sense of where Bond was. One minute he was outside a cave, the next he was up a snow-bound mountain. I never really felt like I was being taken anywhere by the story. It could have all happened in a half-mile radius were it not for the captions telling us where we were.

The one exception in this that I have to mention, because I believe it's one of the all-time classic Bond sequences, is the boat chase down the Thames. Not only is it a cracking chase full of all you'd expect from Bond, but Apted REALLY went out of his way to show off London: Tower Bridge, The Houses of Parliament, The Dome etc, etc. It was quite simply brilliantly done and, for my money, right up there with the DB5, Little Nellie and the Lotus Esprit as the best that Bond can give us.

Tamahori gas said that Bond films are about "Guns, gadgets and girls", which is the popular perception, but the key bit that everyone seems to miss is the exotic locations. They were absolutley fundamental to the earlier Bonds' success, and even TND managed a couple of good examples: Dawn over Hamburg and Flight into Saigon. So I do hope that they get the travelogue aspect right for Bond 20. Imagine YOLT without Japan, or LTK without South America...

[Blue Eyes]

Well if he is he's getting a big slap off me when I meet him

Back onto Feirstein. I'm reading the TWINE companion, everyone is singing his praises. Yes I know it's a PR book, and even Michael Apted (though you can sense the spite) is praising Denise Richards (though she praises herslef the most), but there is still something earnest about the way they describe his work.

They don't say he's particularly great at writing scripts. But they praise the way he writes the character of Bond.

Food for thought.

[mccartney007]

I know there was at least one other person brought in. I forget who it was and where I saw it. I'll look around and see if I can find a name.

[White Persian]

rubixcub (14 Jan, 2002 09:49 p.m.):
Nope. He wanted Elektra to live. Once she's told Renard "Dive!" she has no bearing on the plot anymore, so it's wrong of Bond to shoot her. He would've had M walk in, and Bond hands her the gun saying something like "Here. You started this, you finish it", and then diving into the water below. At the end, Bond visits Elektra in an institution; she believes herself to be in love with him. Close with a shot of Bond leaving the institution and walking out into the London autumn.

But P & W and the producers wanted Bond to kill her, so that's what happened. He also didn't like TWINE because Bond is supposed to be fun and TWINE wasn't. He said something along the lines of the action should relate to the plot, or carry the plot to a certain extent, or further the plot. ... Truth be told, I thought the action scenes in TWINE tended to just interrupt the plot rather than sustain or further it.

Thanks Dave, this is fascinating. I definitely prefer the P&W version. The point about the action scenes is very pertinent though. I certainly felt that the film just stops for the paraglider sequence which is just grafted on for the sake of spectacle. I know a lot of people feel the same about the helicopter attack on the caviar factory, though I quite enjoy this sequence.
From what he says about "Bond is supposed to be fun" it sounds like he prefers the Roger Moore style Bond romp, rather than the FRWL/ OHMSS style story.
I know which direction I'd rather see Bond take.

[White Persian]

Blue Eyes (13 Jan, 2002 03:38 a.m.):
I have reason to believe that someone else may have been brought on board. But I don't know how true the news is.

Having read our very own Jim's version of Bond20, I hope it's Jim!

[James Page]

JimmyBond (12 Jan, 2002 10:45 p.m.):
So are P&W the only two working on this film? If so, that should almost guarantee that we're gonna get an interesting final product.

I sure hope so. You know what they say about too many cooks. Fortunately Fierstien didn't get much stime to spoil TWINE, but you only have to look at the Stealth Ship scenes in TND to see what can happen when you leave him in charge.

Would anyone out there like to finance my legal bid to impose a restraining order on Fierstien within a 20 mile radius of Pinewood?

The majestrate is a Bond fan, so 50 pence should do it.

[White Persian]

Whether credited or not, we can probably assume Michael G. Wilson has had some imput.

[rubixcub]

Nope. He wanted Elektra to live. Once she's told Renard "Dive!" she has no bearing on the plot anymore, so it's wrong of Bond to shoot her. He would've had M walk in, and Bond hands her the gun saying something like "Here. You started this, you finish it", and then diving into the water below. At the end, Bond visits Elektra in an institution; she believes herself to be in love with him. Close with a shot of Bond leaving the institution and walking out into the London autumn.

But P & W and the producers wanted Bond to kill her, so that's what happened. He also didn't like TWINE because Bond is supposed to be fun and TWINE wasn't. He said something along the lines of the action should relate to the plot, or carry the plot to a certain extent, or further the plot. Can't remember exactly. Truth be told, I thought the action scenes in TWINE tended to just interrupt the plot rather than sustain or further it.

This is just from memory. I can't show you the actual quotes from what Feirstein said because I don't have it and my friend deleted it. My having asked for it was the cause of a nasty rift between us (thankfully resolved), but I know he was right (his choice of words was extremely wrong, but his point was right).

Anyway, 'nuff of that. I've said all I can remember and all I can say. My guess is Feirstein will come back- he's a good friend of the producers' and they pay him a lot- but it's probably not going to be on this film. Maybe the next. I also have a feeling that Purvis & Wade won't work on the next one (which maybe ties in with Feirstein returning, not that I'm implying bad blood between them, I don't know of any at all).

Dave

[JimmyBond]

His name isnt Ben Willcock by any chance is it? I thought this was bogus info, I got it from the IMDB forum on Bond 20.

[Tim007]

I can imagine how Feirstein would have killed her...

He had given a gun to Elektra and there would have been a wild firering between Bond and Elektra, in which Bond would have missed her, then she would have had time to call R

[Blue Eyes]

I have reason to believe that someone else may have been brought on board. But I don't know how true the news is.

[JimmyBond]

[quote]rubixcub (14 Jan, 2002 11:35 p.m.):[quote]
I think TWINE didn't feel as cohesive as it could've been. We only ever saw part of a room, brief shots of exteriors and few connectors. In the beginning of GE when Bond goes to the casino, we see a terrific sweeping shot showing us the whole locale, and follow him through the casino and back out through a mime performance. Nice incidental event, the sort of thing that's happening that Bond just passes through (we didn't see any of these in TWINE). In TWINE, when we see the casino we just see the front door for a second, and I for one couldn't get a feel for what the place looked like, how it was laid out, like I could for the casino in GE. The Bilbao office, Scottish MI6, and Elektra's house gave me the same problem.



Dave[/quote]

Thats it! For a while I've been trying to figure out this nagging feeling I've been having about TWINE. Finally I know, thank you. Although that does have nothing to do with the writing TWINE was pretty flat visually.

[mkkbb]

rubixcub (14 Jan, 2002 11:35 p.m.):
I think TWINE didn't feel as cohesive as it could've been. We only ever saw part of a room, brief shots of exteriors and few connectors. In the beginning of GE when Bond goes to the casino, we see a terrific sweeping shot showing us the whole locale, and follow him through the casino and back out through a mime performance. Nice incidental event, the sort of thing that's happening that Bond just passes through (we didn't see any of these in TWINE).

Dave

Spot on that man!

I too would love to see more sweeping shots, or just of Bond walking through crowds or whatever. Everything seems so in-your-face in TWINE. I'd really like to see a festival scene again like in Thunderball and Moonraker.

And lets see more of those sets. GoldenEye did it brilliantly, you could really visualise where different rooms connected to each other in the big satellite dish base at the end for instance.

[rubixcub]

JimmyBond (12 Jan, 2002 10:45 p.m.):
With Goldeneye we had Micheal France, then several writers until Fierstien wrote the final draft. Tomorrow Never Dies started and ended with Fierstien, with as many as five screenwriters brough in for rewrites. The World is Not enough started with P&W, Dana Stevens was brought in, and Fierstien aslo had a crack at it.

Now we have Bond 20, so far P&W are the only two mentioned, and now the thing is going in front of the cameras Monday and we havent heard anything about any other screenwrters.

So are P&W the only two working on this film? If so, that should almost guarantee that we're gonna get an interesting final product.

My best friend has been corresponding with Bruce Feirstein for a while (Feirstein gives him scriptwriting advice), and so far they haven't called him in. Apparently when he was brought in on the last one it was at the last minute and he'd have to do, I believe, on the spot rewrites. He wasn't pleased with the way TWINE turned out (he had suggested a different ending and fate for Elektra, but was outvoted; there were other things he didn't like as well), so he might not be back for this one. Still, with it being so last-minute you never can tell. They pay him a lot for it, so I've heard.

But it pretty much looks like Feirstein is sitting this one out. It's okay. Maibaum sat out Moore's fourth as well and Christopher Wood handled it solo. The writing patterns have been mirrored lately between these eras. Staple writers for actors' first two, new writer(s) for the third, staple writer sits out fourth (which brings us to the present), comes back for the fifth. We'll see how it goes. I think Feirstein does an adequate job though it helps when there's another writer working on it as well (the mastermind principle). I have a feeling that Purvis & Wade will be gone after Bond 20 and Feirstein will come back and a new writer will be brought in. Call it a hunch.

Dave

[zencat]

rubixcub (14 Jan, 2002 09:49 p.m.):
Nope. He wanted Elektra to live. Once she's told Renard "Dive!" she has no bearing on the plot anymore, so it's wrong of Bond to shoot her. He would've had M walk in, and Bond hands her the gun saying something like "Here. You started this, you finish it", and then diving into the water below. At the end, Bond visits Elektra in an institution; she believes herself to be in love with him. Close with a shot of Bond leaving the institution and walking out into the London autumn.

Hummm. You know, this isn't bad. I really don't know which side of the argument I would have been on here. On paper, this might have seemed like the preferable ending. But the killing scene was executed beautifully (acting/directing) and really had impact which may have not been obvious on the page. So I can't fault Feirstein for suggesting this idea.

rubixcub (14 Jan, 2002 09:49 p.m.):
He also didn't like TWINE because Bond is supposed to be fun and TWINE wasn't.

I have to agree with him here. Don't get me wrong, I liked TWINE, but I do feel the balance was a little too tipped a too much toward drama.

[Blue Eyes]

rubixcub (14 Jan, 2002 09:49 p.m.):
Nope. He wanted Elektra to live. Once she's told Renard "Dive!" she has no bearing on the plot anymore, so it's wrong of Bond to shoot her. He would've had M walk in, and Bond hands her the gun saying something like "Here. You started this, you finish it", and then diving into the water below. At the end, Bond visits Elektra in an institution; she believes herself to be in love with him. Close with a shot of Bond leaving the institution and walking out into the London autumn.

That's the same ending as it's been explained to me. Personally, I prefer it. There's a lot more Bond to it. Remember the fish that Bond throws back in the sea (figuritevly speaking) in TB? I think it would have been the same. Feirstein's right that Elektra doesn't affect the plot anymore, unless she would somehow overpower M. And the ending is very haunting - probably the reason they didn't want it. Oh well, an opportunity missed.

A lot of people blame Feirstein for a lot of things in Bond. Like all men he has his faults, no one is perfect. I wouldn't mind seeing him return in a few years. Not necessarily for Bond 20 though.