90 replies to this topic

[zencat]

What's everyone

[zencat]

LOL!

I originally wrote "surrounding" instead of "surrendering." Talk about a Freudian slip.

[doublenoughtspy]

I don't think he tricks her that much.

She did draw the Lovers card before - without his interference.

She obviously knew the card meant that they would be lovers - because she then sends Bond the upside down Queen of Cups to warn him about Rosie.

I think she is much better off because of Bond, and she went on to help others under the alias of Dr Quinn, medicine woman.

And Bond's ruse is something she is playing along with I think. As she says "The cards do not tell anything to those who cannot see." Picking a card from a stack in Bond's hands is not a true Tarot reading - it just helps her justify jumping into the sack with Bond to get their freak on.

While her pyschic abilities are "blinded", she does seem to enjoy those lover's lessons.

[Bryce (003)]

"Is there time before we leave for lesson number 3?"

Yeah, she obviously wasn't enjoying herself.....

[Mister Asterix]

doublenought is right. The Lovers card is drawn three times total, only once was it Bond’s trick. Thet means it was 66.67% meant to be.

[zencat]

Originally posted by doublenoughtspy
She did draw the Lovers card before - without his interference.

She obviously knew the card meant that they would be lovers - because she then sends Bond the upside down Queen of Cups to warn him about Rosie.

...Picking a card from a stack in Bond's hands is not a true Tarot reading - it just helps her justify jumping into the sack with Bond to get their freak on.

Hey, I never really looked at it that way. It had already been foretold, in a genuine reading, that they would be lovers...the ruse didn't really matter. As you said, that was just an excuse to get the party started.

Originally posted by Mister Asterix
doublenought is right. The Lovers card is drawn three times total, only once was it Bond’s trick. Thet means it was 66.67% meant to be.

LOL!

Better odds than most girls get, I think.

[Bryce (003)]

*Bryce makes mental note to buy Tarot cards*

I always used soft lights, jazz and Bollinger....

[BONDFINESSE 007]

Originally posted by Bryce (003)
*Bryce makes mental note to buy Tarot cards*

I always used soft lights, jazz and Bollinger....

hey i dont blame you, you gotta stick with what works

[Xenobia]

Ah, the future! Were Bond and Solitare destined for each other? Who knows. The fickle thing of the future is, anything can change it.

Mr. Big could have hurt Bond so badly that they couldn't make love (as is the case in the novel), or Kanaga could have killed Solitare before she got to Bond. Or perhaps Solitare could have looked at Bond's deck and knew he was lying -- all is possible.

And that is not even taking into account that anyone who tarot well knows the cards can only be interpreted in conjunction to the others. Solitare merely pulling out the lovers card could mean her and Bond -- or her and Kanaga.

Her destiny to her was probably to have Kanaga as her lover. That's what he had lead her to believe when he took her from whereever she had been, and it is what he repeatedly told her, including the one time we hear it in the movie.

Here's a thought. Solitare could have taken matters in her own hands, and finally claimed her destiny for herself. She could have read the cards, known the risks to herself, and said to Bond, "Go away, you are not worth my life." End of story, Bond finds another way to get to Kanaga, or he simply kidanaps Solitare.

But as easily as Solitare could have said no, she said yes. It was her choice to be with James, who evidently she already had strong feelings for if she was willing to risk her life once by warning him about Rosie. And so the moment came when Bond put his arms around her and she had the choice to push him away or let him stay.

She let him stay.

That's not destiny, that's not fortold in the cards. That is the action of a woman who made a decision, and her decision was she wanted to be with Bond. She cared for him and she knew he could get her away from Kanaga, so she made her choice.

Make no mistake gentleman, when a woman of faith (be it in the cards or God, or what have you), makes a decision to give up her virginity, it is not about what's in the cards, or what someone tells her to do. It's about what it is in her heart and mind. Bond might have had a loaded deck, but Solitare had the better hand.

-- Xenobia

[zencat]

Beautifully said, Xen. I was hoping to get a female POV on this. Thanks.

[BONDFINESSE 007]

i think bond tricked her bad but i also know that it would have happened anyway, he just sped up the process, cant call him a scamp for that

[zencat]

Originally posted by Xenobia
Solitare merely pulling out the lovers card could mean her and Bond -- or her and Kanaga.

Her destiny to her was probably to have Kanaga as her lover.  That's what he had lead her to believe when he took her from whereever she had been, and it is what he repeatedly told her, including the one time we hear it in the movie.

And this is the real sick twist in this setup. Kanaga is Solitaire

[Athena007]

Originally posted by Xenobia
But as easily as Solitare could have said no, she said yes.  It was her choice to be with James...

Exactly what I was going to say. I deffinatly agree Xen.

[BONDFINESSE 007]

no woman can resist bond, not even a lesbian

[zencat]

Originally posted by BONDFINESSE 007
no woman can resist bond, not even a lesbian

Hmmm...I think I'm with the ladies on this one. I don't think Solitaire was conquered in the way Pussy Galore was conquered. I think she willingly gave into Bond for her own deeper reasons (or maybe I'm just choosing to believe this). I certainly don't think she was seduced by his "lesson #1" rap.

[Simon]

Originally posted by zencat

"Like your mother before you." When he says that HE will be the one to take her virginity when the time is right...well that's really diabolical. (Or is it just Flemingesque?) It's also possible that Solitaire is his real daughter. Does Kanaga sire his own psychics?

Curious thing that, it means that her mother "did it" at least twice, the first time with Mr Big with protection, and (at least) one of the times thereafter with A. N. Other without protection for reproductive purposes.

Wouldn't Mr Big's pride have demanded that his turn would have been without protection?

Or was he looking for offspring but incapable?

(I doubt Solitaire could have been his daughter, skin colours etc.)

[Bryce (003)]

Now this is getting interesting.

As ever Zencat, you really do dig up some cool observations.

I concur with Xen though. It's a choice made by the woman. No two ways about it.

Solitaire made her choice (albeit with some trepidation) but it was for herself. Tarot cards and powers aside.

[zencat]

Originally posted by Simon
Curious thing that, it means that her mother "did it" at least twice, the first time with Mr Big with protection, and (at least) one of the times thereafter with A. N. Other without protection for reproductive purposes.

Wouldn't Mr Big's pride have demanded that his turn would have been without protection?

Or was he looking for offspring but incapable?

(I doubt Solitaire could have been his daughter, skin colours etc.)

Not sure if I follow the two time/protection thing, Simon. Certainly once would accomplish both tasks.

And as far as skin color goes...ever see Halle Berry's mother?

[Loomis]

Originally posted by zencat

And as far as skin color goes...ever see Halle Berry's mother?  

Yeah, but they don't come much whiter than Jane Seymour.

Actually, didn't they toy with the idea of making Solitaire black? Wasn't Diana Ross going to play her at one point, or is that just one of those Bond fans' urban myths?

[zencat]

Originally posted by Loomis
Actually, didn't they toy with the idea of making Solitaire black? Wasn't Diana Ross going to play her at one point, or is that just one of those Bond fans' urban myths?

No, that's true. Well, I'm not 100% certain about Diana Ross, but I know Solitaire was black until late into scripting.

[Simon]

Originally posted by zencat

Not sure if I follow the two time/protection thing, Simon. Certainly once would accomplish both tasks.

And as far as skin color goes...ever see Halle Berry's mother?

Following the preconception that Solitaire is "white", if Mr Big was the first for her mother and Solitaire is not his daughter, then it follows that Solitaire's mother would have had to have had sex at least twice and with a second person.

I say "at least" because veracity would not permit me to say that categorically, Solitaire's mother's second time/guy was the event that brought Solitaire into the world.

What's the deal with Berry's mother? And if she's black or white, I can't say that it's relevant as Halle herself is that half caste colour. Were her parents mixed colours?

[Jaelle]

Hmm, Zencat, you certainly opened up a very provocative subject.

I have to admit, this one's always been a tough one for me. And my response may rankle some, but I really think it's too easy to just automatically protect Bond from criticism here. Xenobia posted an excellent argument, no doubt. Yes, it was Solitaire' choice. But I also think that's an easy way out of this question.

Solitaire had led a very, very protected, controlled existence and her faith in the cards was absolute. Her world was very narrow, she knew nothing about what it means to make her own choices about anything. She was enslaved by Kananga, and had lived her entire life that way. She knew nothing else. She was exposed to nothing else. And she believed in the power of the cards--and whatever spirits controlled them--unquestioningly.

"Choice" implies some level of independence and awareness that you do have a choice, an awareness of exactly what the entire concept of *choice* means, some experience in making choices, some exposure to people around you, a life around you, where people make choices. Solitaire did not have this.

When she saw the lovers card drawn, did she acquiesce to Bond because she believed herself to be in thrall to whatever powers control the cards? Did she simply acquiesce because that is all she knew how to do throughout her entire life? Solitaire to me in LALD seems like a woman who is completely, totally in submission. She does not know how to be anything else, or think in any other way.

Now, I think Bond clearly sees the true nature of Solitaire's existence (as I describe it above) and rightly believes that this young, innocent woman needs to be brought out of this enslavement. He also rightly sees that the best way to shake her world up--to *force* the concept of independence and choice upon her--is for her lose her virginity, and *to him* of course, rather conveniently.

But in doing so, Bond is taking a great deal upon himself, endangering her life very seriously, and anointing himself the Man Who Will Introduce the World to This Innocent Young Thing. His actions, I believe, also spring from very selfish, presumptuous and reckless motives.

Yet he *does*, after all, have a mission to complete, and that is his primary objective above everything else. Whatever he needs to do to complete it, he will do it.

I have never, ever needed nor wanted James Bond to be always likeable (note that my favorite Bonds are Dalton and Connery). I *like* it when Bond is occasionally shown to behave in ungentlemanly, arrogant, even brutish ways. I *like* it when the audience is shaken out of its complacency and made to feel ambivalent about James Bond as a hero, to question his conduct. So for that reason I feel that this particular part of LALD is a good one.

I'm going on far too long as usual but my point is that the whole Bond-Solitaire situation is a very ambivalent thing (tho I know some who REALLY bash Bond about his behavior with her). I don't think it's fair to simply demonize Bond about it but neither do I think it's fair to resort to easy rationalizations about his behavior.

Like I said, it's a tough call. And one which I think shows that the Bond films (especially Moore's films) are not as mindless as everyone thinks they are.

[zencat]

Wow. Well argued, Jaelle. Now I really don't know where I stand on this.

[Simon]

Originally posted by Jaelle

Yet he *does*, after all, have a mission to complete, and that is his primary objective above everything else.  Whatever he needs to do to complete it, he will do it.

As Trevelyan said, always to the mission, and never to his friends.

I'm going on far too long as usual but my point is that ..................

I have to say I appreciate your posts Jaelle, every one of them are well thought out, lucid and offer the full argument; certainly not one to throw out a three word reply.

[zencat]

Originally posted by Simon


Following the preconception that Solitaire is "white", if Mr Big was the first for her mother and Solitaire is not his daughter, then it follows that Solitaire's mother would have had to have had sex at least twice and with a second person.

Ah, got it. (three word reply)

Originally posted by Simon
What's the deal with Berry's mother?  And if she's black or white, I can't say that it's relevant as Halle herself is that half caste colour.  Were her parents mixed colours?

Yeah, Halle's mother is white (unless it's a step mother? I'm no Halle Berry expert). But I guess you're right. Solitaire would have to sport some features of Kananga. Of course, it is a James Bond movie (and a Roger Moore one at that). Logic is out the window along with genetic logic. I mean, how the hell did Stromberg get those webbed fingers?

[Genrewriter]

Too much fish perhaps?

On the topic, I feel that Bond is actually quite ruthless throughout Moore's first two outings. Apart from tricking Solitiare, he casually threatens to kill Rosie after sleeping with her, even making a joke about it.

[Simon]

Originally posted by zencat

Of course, it is a James Bond movie (and a Roger Moore one at that). Logic is out the window along with genetic logic. I mean, how the hell did Stromberg get those webbed fingers?

Excellent. Now that, sir, is an entirely other post.

[zencat]

Originally posted by Genrewriter
On the topic, I feel that Bond is actually quite ruthless throughout Moore's first two outings.  Apart from tricking Solitiare, he casually threatens to kill Rosie after sleeping with her, even making a joke about it.

It's true. I think the first woman Bond shows any real feeling for is Ayna in SPY, and that's not until very late into the film.

[Jaelle]

Originally posted by Simon
I have to say I appreciate your posts Jaelle, every one of them are well thought out, lucid and offer the full argument; certainly not one to throw out a three word reply.

Thank you very much, Sir! (4 words)

[Simon]

5?