17 replies to this topic

[Triton]

I feel compelled to comment in this forum about Tula and decided to place this information in its own post.

For the record Tula has Klinefelter Syndrome. Men with this disorder have an extra X chromosome making them XXY, normal women are XX, they have male sexual organs, but the testes are abnormally small and the individual is sterile and there is little beard development or growth. The syndrome often includes breast enlargement and feminine body contours so he was a she-male more female than male. Who could blame him for having a sex change operation if he was mostly a woman to begin with. Unfortunately, I have heard that the British government does not make alloyances for sex changes and so his password says he is male.

Most people think that Tula was a normal man who had a sex change operation. Roger Moore's comments that "Tula was a man" don't help the situation. Nor do Director John Glen's comments on the For Your Eyes Only commentary. About the time that the film was being made, the press also wrote very uninformed stories that Tula was once a man. Although Tula was declared male at birth he was NEVER a man.

About the time that For Your Eyes Only was released in the early 1980s, Tula appeared on the Phil Donahue talk show. He shared photographs that were taken when he was in his late teens and he looked like a teenage girl! In his twenties, Barry Cossey had a "sex change operation" and became Caroline Cossey, aka in the fashion world, Tula.

Even during this talk show, when he said that he had Klinefelter's Syndrome, people still asked him stupid questions about the sex change operation. Hello, he is cross-gendered! He was NEVER a man. Because he was born with a penis his birth certificate says that he is a male.

So for heaven sakes stop your homophobic posts about Tula being a man!

[Dunph]

Yet you refer to Tula as he?

[Triton]

Actually I didn't really know which personal pronoun to use. According to the British government, Tula is still a male.

So which personal pronoun should I have used when discussing a cross-gendered person? She/he? May be I should have used she in my post.

But persons with Klinefelter Syndrome are considered male at birth, so that is the principal reason why I used he in my post.

[Dr. Tynan]

Are you sure Triton??

[Blofeld's Cat]

Originally posted by Triton
So for heaven sakes stop your homophobic posts about Tula being a man!

Well, if Cossey was born male by law then the law is homophobic, and people are only referring to the person as male in accordance.

But I don't know why it would be homophobic in the first place to call those unfortunate enough to have Klinefelter Syndrome a man to begin with. There's no homosexual implication in that surely.

[Triton]

Originally posted by Blofeld's Cat

Well, if Cossey was born male by law then the law is homophobic, and people are only referring to the person as male in accordance.

But I don't know why it would be homophobic in the first place to call those unfortunate enough to have Klinefelter Syndrome a man to begin with. There's no homosexual implication in that surely.

My post was principally directed at the posts I have read in this forum, and in others, that go something on the order of let's try and spot the ex-man in the For Your Eyes Only swimming pool scene. Or don't forget that one of the girls in that scene is a bloke or don't oogle the girls too much because one of them is a guy or some other nonsense.

Caroline Cossey revealed that she had an extra X chromosome on the Donahue show in the early 1980s, giving her 47. Normal males and females have 46 chromosomes. Extra X chromosomes are considered Klinefelter Syndrome and Caroline Cossey, or Tula, is often referenced as a person with this syndrome. Check out the following web sites:

http://www.theposition.com/healthbody/sexschool/01/01/15/transgender/default.shtm

Caroline Cossey: The Playboy Interview

In the Playboy interview from September 1991 it says:

Finally, after years of hormone treatments and psychological counseling, Tula was ready for the irrevocable step: sex-change surgery, or, to use the current euphemism, gender reassignment.  Before she could be accepted as a suitable candidate, doctors administered various tests, including one that revealed that she had been born with a chromosomal abnormality.  Tula has three X and one Y chromosomes,
instead of the normal patterns: XY for males, XX for females.
   
"So I could never have been a normal man.  I could never have fathered a child, for instance. Chromosomally, my body seemed to be at war with itself."

The article even talks about Caroline's legal status under British law:

Although Tula's British passport says she's female, her birth certificate says she's male.  Britain's National Health program pays for sex-change surgery, but the government refuses to treat the postsurgery patient as female if she wants to marry. To complicate matters further, Tula contributes to her health insurance at the rate charged a woman, but she won't be able to collect a pension until she's
65 (women are eligible at 60).  If she were to commit a crime, she'd be sent to a men's prison, with all the images of assault that that entails.

[Triton]

PS--

For a tasteful picture of Tula check out the following link:

Caroline Cossey: My Story Cover

According to recent biographical information, she is married to someone named David Finch and currently resides in the United States.

[4 Ur Eyez Only]

Tula has been on Howard Stern 100 times.. and she has never corrected Howard when they talked about his/her operation.. thye have talked about it for atleats 45 minutes..over & over..

I have seen Tula on Geraldo and she has never corrected him either..

you may be right.. but she never in the past cared to correct anyone about it

[zencat]

Does this mean I can now add "her" photograph to my regular rotation?

Okay, that was bad.

[Xenobia]

I need to jump in here for a moment. Men with Klinefelter Syndrome are men. Period, end of debate. Just because they have an extra chromosome does not make them less of a man.

Tula chose to live life as a woman, that was her choice, her disease did not dictate that.

Saying that a man with Klinefelter Syndrome is not a man is like looking at woman who has Turner's Syndrome and telling her she isn't a woman because she has no ovaries or uterus. That's not fair, and that's not right.

-- Xenobia

[Kristian]

Originally posted by Xenobia
I need to jump in here for a moment.  Men with Klinefelter Syndrome are men.  Period, end of debate.  Just because they have an extra chromosome does not make them less of a man.

Tula chose to live life as a woman, that was her choice, her disease did not dictate that.

Saying that a man with Klinefelter Syndrome is not a man is like looking at woman who has Turner's Syndrome and telling her she isn't a woman because she has no ovaries or uterus.  That's not fair, and that's not right.

-- Xenobia

And as far as people talking about trying to spot Tula in FYEO, well, that's just natural curiosity rather than homophobia. But not having read those posts, I don't know for sure. But I don't think it's homophobic to say that Tula is biologically male, because, well, she is. Extra chromosome or not. Granted she/he is gorgeous, but it doesn't change that fact that she once had a -- okay, wait I already had one post deleted because I used the d-word -- well, you know what she once had.

More power to her for choosing the life she wanted, but the fact is she started life as a guy. Nothing homophobic about that, it's just a fact.

[Jim]

If Cossey was a heterosexual woman inside a man's body, which appears to be the case, how could it be homophobic to say that she once took the form of a man, or indeed (tasteful or not) make light of that?

Is there anything to suggest that Barry Cossey was homosexual, or Caroline Cossey is homsexual? It appears not. Where's the homophobia?

(Not that I want it to turn up, but I don't understand the accusation of homophobia at those who point this out).

What proof is there that anyone who has a gender realignment was - prior to that - homosexual? Can't see how the two concepts are intrinsically linked - even though on occasion, they could be.

[Mister Asterix]

Homophobia in this case would seem to be referring to a fear of homosexuality rather than homosexuals. And it would not be a fear of Tula’s sexuality, but a fear by the person looking at her that finding someone who was formally a man sexy would somehow make them homosexual.

[Triton]

Originally posted by Xenobia
I need to jump in here for a moment.  Men with Klinefelter Syndrome are men.  Period, end of debate.  Just because they have an extra chromosome does not make them less of a man.

Tula chose to live life as a woman, that was her choice, her disease did not dictate that.

Saying that a man with Klinefelter Syndrome is not a man is like looking at woman who has Turner's Syndrome and telling her she isn't a woman because she has no ovaries or uterus.  That's not fair, and that's not right.

-- Xenobia

Gender classification of trans-gender persons is still under scientific, medical, psychological, and legal debate. I think that it is unfair to make absolute judgments that should apply to all persons with a particular syndrome. I think that a determination should be made on an individual basis.

[Xenobia]

I agree with you totally Triton.

So don't tell us that Tula was never a man. Let Tula tell us that she was never man, which I have never heard her say.

-- Xenobia

[Simon]

Originally posted by Mister Asterix
Homophobia in this case would seem to be referring to a fear of homosexuality rather than homosexuals. And it would not be a fear of Tula’s sexuality, but a fear by the person looking at her that finding someone who was formally a man sexy would somehow make them homosexual.

Originally posted by Xenobia
[So don't tell us that Tula was never a man. Let Tula tell us that she was never man, which I have never heard her say.

Both very well put.

[Triton]

The whole point of my post was for people to take a few minutes and think about gender identity, gender classification, and point out that there are people in the world who are biologically different and don't fit nicely into the male or female category.

[Pussfeller]

I have to say I didn't expect to find an in-depth thread on this subject. Triton makes a good point about gender identity, but I don't find anything particularly insensitive (or homophobic) about pointing out that this person was once "male." I suppose it's all a question of one's own position on the issue.

With regards to Tula appearing in a Bond film, I find nothing particularly disquieting with the situation. We all understand that this is a fictional situation, complete with fictional characters. If the character is faithfully played--so what?

I hate it when the forum turns "controversial." I prefer to look at it with a pragmatic perspective. I certainly know how the issue would be treated by Fleming's Bond, and it would be anything but sensitive (though no doubt entertaining).