45 replies to this topic

[gkgyver]

I don't know if I'm the only one who thinks so, but could it be that something isn't right with today's movie scores?

I mean, the experienced composers show a rapid decline in quality and there are not much good composers who could follow them.
Elfman's recent scores are beyond good and evil, Williams barely comes up with something fresh (which is not surprising if you consider he's now doing only about one or two scores per year) and Goldsmith isn't as good as he used to be. Same thing with other well-known composers.
And who could follow them? It seems that not many of today's composers are able to do a completely orchestral score, without any synthesized sounds.
And I don't want to start another discussion about this, but David Arnold also isn't exactly the most original composer of the world.

Maybe I'm the only one who thinks so, but I'm really bored by the recent soundtrack releases. And I don't want to stick to my "old" scores forever.

[TonicBH]

I agree. I think we should head back to the days when Orchestra was king.

while synthesized scores are okay at times, I'm just more accustomed to orchestrated music.

What I'm basically saying is to almost all film composers: Ditch the techno, go back to orchestra. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

[gkgyver]

Glad I'm not alone on this.

Recently, composers also begin to remove the natural reverberation of the music. Arnold did it with DAD and as far as I can remember, Williams also did it with Episode II.
What's the point in that? It's ok if it's done for cutting-edge movies like Bond, but films like Star Wars require a powerful orchestral score, IMHO.
Scores like LOTR, Star Wars or Harry Potter (to a certain degree) show us how magnificent this kind of music can be.

[Doubleshot]

Sadly, I think the younger generation of the industry is shifting more towards the Media Ventures composers (Hans Zimmer, Trevor Rabin, Klaus Badelt, etc.) instead of the more orchestral composers like Danny Elfman (whose score for Brett Ratner's Red Dragon last year is one of his best, IMO) and Alan Silvestri. It's sad because there's very little distinction between the scores from the Media Ventures composers. When it's an action score, it sounds like Armageddon. When it's a dramatic score, it sounds like Gladiator. When it's a horror score, it sounds like Hannibal. Themes and motifs are recycled over and over again. That's also the problem I have with James Horner, whose scores since Braveheart (and if you're in the Titanic mood, look no further than Bicentennial Man) have sounded like the same.

[gkgyver]

Well, I'm not a pro at that, but could it be that there has already been done so much that it's hard to come up with something new that is good at the same time?
And I think that there are many motifs that are simply perfect for creating a certain mood or atmosphere and that these are "basic tools" for composers.

[Rich Douglas]

Great topic...

I can tell you all from direct experience that it is very difficult coming up with original themes. While composers like Horner recycle their themes, Im glad theyre not copying other peoples work. Being a huge Media Ventures fan, I obviously love what they churn out no matter how similar it sounds... it ALWAYS makes great driving music! However, I am getting sick of how the MV group lists one composer on the score disc when they all did in fact work on the score, I wish that when we got a film score from Hans Zimmer, it was really all by Zimmer and not done by "Zimmer and friends". I mean, alot of time and hard work goes into a score so I do like theyre amount of team work with projects, but I want to hear a genuine Zimmer score. Also, as much as I love David Arnold's work and will always buy his scores... his latest bond scores have been mainly recycling themes he's come up with in the past, which i do sympathize on, but i want to hear something original. It is true that alot of the "rat pack" composers arent getting as much work as they used to, and their quality has certainly declined. I mean, Alan Silvestri (Back to the Future, Predator) was rejected from Pirates of the Carribean for the MV group. Maestro Jerry Goldsmith was rejected from the upcoming Timeline film based on the crichton book of the same name... I was REALLY looking forward to this score. Apparently it was all recorded so a bootleg release is inevidable. He was replaced by the up and coming young Brian Tyler (Frailty, Darkness Falls). Its very clear that a big film music change is about to occur, but who knows when.

Rich

[gkgyver]

It really seems like for big movies, only old-fashioned, experienced composers are hired.

[Rich Douglas]

Thats not always true.... take Howard Shore for example. Before he scored the Lord of the Rings trilogy all he was known for was "The Game" and "Seven" mainly. Don Davis is another prime example, he wasnt doing anything to terribly huge until he was brought on to score the Matrix Trilogy. But for the most part, huge well-known composers are chosen for big projects.

Rich

[Kingdom Come]

Another reason why composers seem to be going through a lean period is the films on offer - there seems to be less variety and most are pandering more and more to teens and pre-teens. As a collector od scores, like Rich, there have been periods where certain composers work non stop, then they have a break which can in some instances last up to a year. Horner recently seems to be 'resting' and certainly John Barry, as far as film scores goes. Three years since he conducted a film score. Although Enigma was released last year, but it went through a re-edit and extra filming which held the film up for many months and he scored that the previous year. And of course the dreaded 'song scores' where big studios throw songs at pictures, just becasue they are popular and help sell the c.d's.

[gkgyver]

Howard Shore may be one of a few exceptions, but if you were doing a big-budget movie, wouldn't you hire an experienced composer instead of a fairely unknown? Of course it also matters if a director is concerned about the musical score...

And...you forgot Don Davis' Jurassic Park 3. Just for the record.

[Doubleshot]

Gahh... I was trying to forget about Jurassic Park III.

[Rich Douglas]

Of course, JP3 isnt the best film in the world, and Don Davis primarily sounds just like john williams and used the same motifs so I didnt think it was worth mentioning. You'll all be happy to hear that John Barry may yet be coming out of hiding.. he's all set to score the upcoming pixar film "The Fantastics", should be a cool score, lets hope we get alot of brassy action themes ala OHMSS. Only problem is, we wont see a score release until December 2004 it looks like.

Rich

[Dunph]

I can't wait for that score. What do you traditionalists think of the DJs turned composers? People Like David Holmes and Paul Oakenfold? Personally, I love what David Holmes does. He injects a certain amount of 'cool' into his scores, with funk basslines and the occasional swing sample.

[Rich Douglas]

Couldnt agree with you more about holmes Dunph. I got ahold of the academy promo for Oceans 11 which has the complete David Holmes score and absolutely no dialogue. After listening to that, one will definately know just how cool his music is, it's hip, its wonderfully mixed, and its just plain cool and jazzy. Dont forget about the likes of the TomandAndy who recently scored The Mothman Prophecies. Mainly ambient material, but their string themes are pretty touching. Although I must admit, Holmes' material does sound very similar (a cross between jazz and a 70's cop score), still though, I'll always like what he does.

Rich

[Kingdom Come]

Rich, Barry's new score is The Incredibles and he has already conducted it. Odd to think it will be over a year before it is released. Could this be a record for any film composers work?

I doubt there will be any brass, as Barry now likes a much more subdued score and so do I!

[Dunph]

I'm looking forward to Barry's new score, and I hope it will be something of a return to form, something a younger Barry would score. Not that I need loud noises to keep my attention, don't get me wrong, I enjoy his mellow scores, they're beyond relaxing.
I'm just hoping he has created a bombastic, larger than life score for what looks to be another Pixar smash.

[Jaelle]

Well, it's nice to hear someone saying this. You're not alone.

I'm also puzzled by how much praise David Arnold gets on these boards. I find him absolutely bland, I NEVER notice the music in Brosnan's Bond films (except the title songs, which I like very much, except for DAD). As weak as Kamen is, I even prefer his LTK score to Arnold's. At least I notice it, at least it manages to strike a mood in places, like the nice Spanish guitar riff theme for Sanchez (can't stand the Mexican wedding music tho). Watching Brosnan's films, it's like the music just isn't there, or it sounds exactly like every other action film for the last 10 years. It never sticks out.

Except for a little guitar, I'm no musician and have very little technical knowledge of music. I agree that so much has been done already it's hard to be original. But originality isn't necessarily the issue. For me, it's just hearing something that sounds good to my ears, that I take notice of. It may be derivative, even lazy, it just sounds great to me. I loved Shore's work on both Lord of the Rings films (I liked the second even more than the first), thought the score to Titanic was totally forgettable (and each time I hear Celine Dion's song I want to commit homicide). I am absolutely passionate about the score to Gods & Monsters, and I love the score to Gladiator, so much so that I bought the weaker second CD to it. One of my all-time favorite scores in the last 10 years is The Fugitive from 1993. I play that to death. And I think I may have to buy a new copy of the TLD cd because I'm wearing it out.

I can't bear Williams anymore. I like some of his Star Wars stuff, that's all (I liked his TV work much better). I say that even tho as a teenager and college student I bought and still have the albums to some of his big early films (Star Wars, The Fury, The Empire Strikes Back---I want to find them a good home, btw). I've always loved Goldsmith from his TV days onward but his latest stuff (including all the new Trek series) is DULL, DULL, DULL, DULL!!

I don't know the answer to your question, I just keep wishing I could hear a composer that grabs my heart and makes mush out of it like a Bernard Herrman. But that's ok, I have loads of oldies to listen to.

[gkgyver]

Maybe "dull" is really the right word.
I think Tomorrow Never Dies is still Arnold's best effort for Bond, BUT, and I know there are some people who will hate me for saying this, it is still indistinguishable from his other action/adventure scores. It sounds like he took pieces from ID4, altered them a bit and threw the Bond Theme/Surrender in.

Concerning Titanic: I thought and still do think that the film as well as the score is terribly overrated. It's not bad, it is even pretty good at some points, but definitely not worth the Academy Award.
The synthesized instruments and voices combined with a real orchestra sounds just horrible.

But after all, the one change in the movie score world that really brings me down is what's going on with Danny Elfman. Have you heard his audio commentary for the Edward Scissorhands DVD?
If you consider his statements there, his recent scores are not acceptable at all.

[Lotman]

It's true that things are a bit changing; and I believe in a negative way. Composers that are ditched in favour of the Mediaventures group... Oh man. Of course this is just my opinion, but just about all these scores sound the same, with the same motifs: take the horn motif from the Lion King (one of the few Zimmer scores I like), compare it with any other horn motif, like Gladiator or Pearl Harbour?

Concerning Elfman, he's going downhill, which is a shame really, I greatly admire a lot of his scores. I think scores mixed with synthesized sounds can sound pretty awesome (we

[Jaelle]

Originally posted by Lotman
I disagree with what you say about John Williams; his latest scores prove his maestroship I guess. I am not that fond of his 'Hook' and Harry Potter sound, but take Amistad,

I'll grant you the Amistad example, definitely. I'd forgotten that one. I liked that very much. Again, it's just whatever sounds good to my untrained ears.

[rafterman]

it's a hard job, pure and simple...as far as the new djs turned composers thing, well that's a bit like Barry when he got his start, I think that's where a lot of fresh blood will come from, people who come from a unique background...I really like the Badly Drawn Boy score for About A Boy, plenty of songs, but also lots of instrumental tracks and such, perfect different score for the film...

[Jaelle]

Originally posted by rafterman
it's a hard job, pure and simple...as far as the new djs turned composers thing, well that's a bit like Barry when he got his start, I think that's where a lot of fresh blood will come from, people who come from a unique background...I really like the Badly Drawn Boy score for About A Boy, plenty of songs, but also lots of instrumental tracks and such, perfect different score for the film...

Oh thanks for reminding me about this! I keep meaning to buy it, I loved that soundtrack.

[Kristian]

I'm somewhat of a film score collector, and I have to say that using techno is not necessarily a bad thing. The problem is that there are far too few composers who can use it effectively. Too often, Hans Zimmer's recent scores end up discordant and unsatisfying. Indeed, the only real breath-taking tracks from GLADIATOR are the last three with Lisa Gerrard's electrifying vocals. Other than that, it is a standard Zimmer action score. Which is to say, loud and noisy and no harmony (THE PEACEMAKER and DROP ZONE anyone?) Hannibal was good and haunting, Tears of the Sun was exciting, but again, neither was nowhere near as satisfying as BEYOND RANGOON and BLACK RAIN, two of Zimmer's finest pieces from early on. It's like he said, "**** it, no more of this emotional chick stuff" and started smashing a bunch of garbage cans with a Louisville Slugger.

I'll tell you who can combine techno and orchestral quite well: CRAIG ARMSTRONG. He's a relative newcomer to the film scoring biz, but he is already making his mark. In fact, Michael Caine told Philip Noyce that he would only star in THE QUIET AMERICAN (for which Caine was nominated a Best Actor Oscar this past show) if Craig Armstrong would score it.

Below is a short filmography of Armstrong's work. His sounds are chilly, brooding, ominous, evocative, but heartfelt and resonant. I highly recommend him.

PLUNKETT AND MCLEANE
BEST LAID PLANS
THE BONE COLLECTOR
KISS OF THE DRAGON
THE QUIET AMERICAN
MOULIN ROUGE

THE QUIET AMERICAN is particularly good. It reminds me of BEYOND RANGOON, before Hans Zimmer went on a testosterone-overload. Men and their nuts, I swear....

[Kingdom Come]

Jaelle, I agree with you re. Arnold's scores. If you are looking for very beautiful writing, try Gabriel Yared - composer of The Talented Mr Ripley / City Of Angels / The English Patient...

He is rather like Barry - but even more 'classy' and his choice of intruments is excellent.

[Jaelle]

Originally posted by Kristian
I'm somewhat of a film score collector, and I have to say that using techno is not necessarily a bad thing.  The problem is that there are far too few composers who can use it effectively.  Too often, Hans Zimmer's recent scores end up discordant and unsatisfying.  Indeed, the only real breath-taking tracks from GLADIATOR are the last three with Lisa Gerrard's electrifying vocals.  Other than that, it is a standard Zimmer action score.  Which is to say, loud and noisy and no harmony (THE PEACEMAKER and DROP ZONE anyone?)  Hannibal was good and haunting, Tears of the Sun was exciting, but again, neither was nowhere near as satisfying as BEYOND RANGOON and BLACK RAIN, two of Zimmer's finest pieces from early on.  It's like he said, "**** it, no more of this emotional chick stuff" and started smashing a bunch of garbage cans with a Louisville Slugger.
I'll tell you who can combine techno and orchestral quite well: CRAIG ARMSTRONG.  He's a relative newcomer to the film scoring biz, but he is already making his mark.  In fact, Michael Caine told Philip Noyce that he would only star in THE QUIET AMERICAN (for which Caine was nominated a Best Actor Oscar this past show) if Craig Armstrong would score it.  
Below is a short filmography of Armstrong's work.  His sounds are chilly, brooding, ominous, evocative, but heartfelt and resonant.  I highly recommend him.  
PLUNKETT AND MCLEANE
BEST LAID PLANS
THE BONE COLLECTOR
KISS OF THE DRAGON
THE QUIET AMERICAN
MOULIN ROUGE
THE QUIET AMERICAN is particularly good.  It reminds me of BEYOND RANGOON, before Hans Zimmer went on a testosterone-overload.  Men and their nuts, I swear....

Kristian, I very much liked this post, thanks so much for the recommendations! I heartily agree with you about BEYOND RANGOON (I hadn't known the name of the composer). I liked it when I saw the film and then later some friends bought the soundtrack and played it often whenever I visited. And I liked the score to THE QUIET AMERICAN very much. (I loved everything about that movie and think Caine was robbed at the Oscars). I hadn't known about Caine's sentiment re Armstrong. I have to say, tho, the score to MOULIN ROUGE didn't do a lot for me.

From Kingdom Come:

Jaelle, I agree with you re. Arnold's scores. If you are looking for very beautiful writing, try Gabriel Yared - composer of The Talented Mr Ripley / City Of Angels / The English Patient...
He is rather like Barry - but even more 'classy' and his choice of intruments is excellent.[/B]

Ah yes, I do have The English Patient soundtrack, liked that very much. You're not the first person to recommend The Talented Mr. Ripley to me (both film and score--I just never got around to seeing the film when it came out). All these recommendations are great.

[JackChase007]

I recently picked up Alan Silvestri's score for LARA CROFT TOMB RAIDER: THE CRADLE OF LIFE out of curiousity (has anyone heard his MUMMY RETURNS score?), and I must say that it is a very, very enjoyable action score. It takes a few listens to really get into, but it's a fun listen.

[Rich Douglas]

Heard nothing but good things about Silvestri's "Cradle" score. Pirates of The Carribean is wonderful action music as well, great media ventures score.

Rich

[JackChase007]

POTC is a fun score indeed, but I can understand why it's been doing rather poorly with critics - it does sound much like THE ROCK with a few slight variations, but hey - can't win em all, right? All in all, it is a good action score and it worked quite well with the movie.

Although, going back to Silvestri, it's such a huge shame that he didn't get to do the POTC score like he was supposed to. That really could've been AMAZING.

[Rich Douglas]

Damn right it could have ... maybe Silvestri would have incorperated "yo ho - yo ho" from the ride, could have been interesting and very cool. Im sure that at least a portion of his score for Cradle was carried over from his rejected stuff from POTC.

Rich

[JackChase007]

That's actually what I suspected...but so far from what I've heard, the score is very techno-oriented. But hey, who knows? I remember reading once that Silvestri used material from his rejected MISSION: IMPOSSBLE score over to the Schwarzenegger film ERASER.

Either way, CRADLE is still a damn enjoyable score.