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Benson to quit writing Bond....


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#91 Loomis

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Posted 20 February 2003 - 11:27 AM

Originally posted by marktmurphy
And since when could you buy Benson at an airport bookstall?


Well, that's my point. A few years ago I flicked through a Gardner at an airport bookstall. I don't know the title, but it was the one where Bond goes to Disneyland.

Now, obviously if you go to an airport bookstall in search of a particular novel and don't find it, it doesn't mean that that novel isn't successful. But when you have trouble finding the Bensons even in London's largest bookshops, that's when the alarm bells are ringing.

#92 kevrichardson

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Posted 20 February 2003 - 01:12 PM

Originally posted by Loomis

Well, that's my point. A few years ago I flicked through a Gardner at an airport bookstall. I don't know the title, but it was the one where Bond goes to Disneyland.  
Now, obviously if you go to an airport bookstall in search of a particular novel and don't find it, it doesn't mean that that novel isn't successful. But when you have trouble finding the Bensons even in London's largest bookshops, that's when the alarm bells are ringing.

Does any one have an idea as to what the numbers where in sales of Bensons Bond books. As compared to Gardner . It seem to me that "Glidrose" , is more concern with the re-establishment of the Fleming novels . Than with the continuation novels. Since no news about the earlier one publication has been announced.

#93 marktmurphy

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Posted 20 February 2003 - 01:34 PM

Originally posted by Loomis
I want:

- Quality writing.
- Novels marketed internationally to a mass readership.
- Novels appearing in bookshops.


Unless the literary Bond is POPULAR, fuggedaboutit!


Again, this is the problem: every one wants these things, but its not going to happen: you might as well stamp your feet and cry 'I want Fleming back'.
This is because the Bond series is damaged goods- running for years getting less and less interesting with a very bad reputation (even amongst the fans). What publishers with half a brain are going start a full run of such an underperforming series? The odds of attracting a good writer to such series is massively poor: who wants to use other people's characters? (Look what happened last time- the chap hadn't even written a book before) So even if they get it going again, it will be with a bad writer at the helm. And even if they get a series going with a new, good writer they will get zero publicity because of the series poor reputation and the series will fail again.

I feel you've got attract some big name writers to get interest going again- and the only way to do this is not to tie them down to more than one book or even a full length one at that.
This isn't the most desirable solution: I'd like a new novel every month or so, written well and originally; but it won't happen any time soon.


Plus I don't see why everyone here is obsessed with the thought of the series being popular- why does knowing somebody else is reading the same book make it a better experience? It will increase its chances of surviving, yes, but you can't just demand a 'popular' series. Its got to make itself popular and it has to do that via a total brand relaunch.

#94 Loomis

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Posted 20 February 2003 - 02:18 PM

Originally posted by marktmurphy

its not going to happen: you might as well stamp your feet and cry 'I want Fleming back'.


I agree that the chances of it happening are slim, but calling for quality is certainly not the same thing as demanding Fleming back, any more than calling for quality in the film series is the same thing as stamping your feet and crying: "I want Sean Connery and Terence Young back!" I certainly wasn't demanding Fleming back when I read "Colonel Sun".

Originally posted by marktmurphy

even if they get a series going with a new, good writer they will get zero publicity because of the series poor reputation and the series will fail again.


I disagree. Depends entirely on the writer. If they got, say, Martin Amis or Ian McEwan, they'd get masses of publicity.

As for the question of popularity, I've made this point before, but unless the literary Bond is popular - and by "popular", I don't mean topping the New York Times bestseller list or shifting millions upon millions of copies; I just mean doing well, with the continuation novels on sale in bookshops the world over, as you'd expect - then I don't want it to continue. I don't want the literary series to peter out into nothing more than a small cult concern. It goes against everything the Bond novels were supposed to be about.

#95 marktmurphy

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Posted 20 February 2003 - 02:21 PM

Sorry, when I said 'new good writer' I meant a new unknown.

And you can't just say you want it popular- 'I want' doesn't get.

#96 Loomis

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Posted 20 February 2003 - 02:33 PM

Originally posted by marktmurphy

And you can't just say you want it popular- 'I want' doesn't get.  


Well, I can and do just say that I want it popular, although I agree that "I want" doesn't get. But if the literary series becomes simply a small-scale, fan-only thing (although you could argue that it's at that point already), then I personally want no further part of it. The literary James Bond was never meant to be a cottage industry. Okay, I concede that it's very unrealistic to hope that it will recapture its critical and commercial glory of the Fleming era, but unless it's able to maintain a reasonable degree of popularity outside the world of fandom, I say let it die. And if future novels are not going to be well-written, why should we be interested?

Similarly, if the film series became unpopular and nosedived in quality, and EON announced that it was putting things on hold, I'd prefer them to stop making Bond movies altogether rather than attempt to prolong the franchise as straight-to-video outings with tiny budgets and shoddy production values.

#97 zencat

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Posted 20 February 2003 - 05:02 PM

Originally posted by B007GLE
...Also, they should be allowed to come up with their own titles. Afterall, what is h "High Time to Kill" anyway?

Go here to see Benson's original title choices.
http://forums.comman...s=&threadid=355

#98 Simon

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Posted 20 February 2003 - 07:06 PM

Originally posted by marktmurphy


I feel you've got attract some big name writers to get interest going again- and the only way to do this is not to tie them down to more than one book or even a full length one at that.
This isn't the most desirable solution: I'd like a new novel every month or so, written well and originally; but it won't happen any time soon.


I have to say I agree entirely.

If what we were missing here with the last bunch of books was publicity, then the heralding of a new annual guest and famed author would create 50% of the interest. I'm not sure about the privately published/internet idea - it sounds too intra niche (is that right Jim?) and geeky, but a Martin Amis type author would recognise the selling points of Bond and interweave them into something truly creative.

As I said above, we get a new director for each film. If Glidrose was the Eon, then it could offer a truly creative experience that would make the world sit up and take notice.

But as someone else said, the trust fund babies (nice) would have to work for their dinner annually.

#99 Loomis

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Posted 20 February 2003 - 07:19 PM

Some good ideas, Simon. There'd be masses of interest if they got well-known writers involved. Someone like Martin Amis (read somewhere he actually has the rights to do a Bond novel thanks to his father having done one, although I don't really see the legal logic in that myself), or Ian McEwan would be great.

But I'm not sure it should be an annual thing. Why not do it in the same way as the films, with a new novel every two or three years, to allow each one to be fully promoted and avoid the market being flooded? Not to mention the additional time that would allow for an author to research, write and polish.

#100 Simon

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Posted 20 February 2003 - 07:44 PM

Yeah, absolutely. Annual, every two years - it doesn't matter.

Would probably have to be a longer break so that the author search, author's research and review of the previous book could be taken into account for purposes of sequence and overlap between novels.

If that sounds right?? You know what I mean!

#101 marktmurphy

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Posted 20 February 2003 - 08:11 PM

This is definitely the direction I would like to see- the internet/mail order thing was peripheral to my main point anyway. Real creativity and an actual possible solution to the lack of interest in the series.

#102 Jim

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 08:25 AM

Originally posted by Simon


I have to say I agree entirely.

If what we were missing here with the last bunch of books was publicity, then the heralding of a new annual guest and famed author would create 50% of the interest.  I'm not sure about the privately published/internet idea - it sounds too intra niche (is that right Jim?) and geeky, but a Martin Amis type author would recognise the selling points of Bond and interweave them into something truly creative.


But as someone else said, the trust fund babies (nice) would have to work for their dinner annually.


Intra-niche is the word.

We lucky few "in publishing" - what data we get. August 2002, "The Man with the Red Tattoo" on sale for about - what - three months (in the UK?). 31 days in August, eleven copies sold. Eleven. In a month. In the big holiday month in the UK. Eleven. By way of comparison, it was on a par with two books about the history of the tramways in Oldham and fifteen copies below a book about badgers that was only sold in three bookshops.

The Hound of the Baskervilles sold three hundred and twelve copies. Admittedly in paperback, but then Never Dream of Dying sold twenty-seven and that was in paperback too. The Hound of the Baskervilles is one hundred years old. Goldfinger sold two hundred and nine and that was before the UK re-release. That Star Wars book "Heir to the Empire" - about as intra-niche as one could get - sold three hundred and one copies but one has to factor in the renewed interest in Star Wars due to the film that was out at the time. Usually the Star Wars books have a consistent but quite low figure - albeit higher than twenty-seven per month

Don't yet have the November 2002 figures - one wonders if Die Another Day had a marked effect on the Benson sales. Personally, I doubt it - because otherwise would this week's even have actually happened?

Lack of effort by all interested parties, frankly.

Back on the point...

The novelty of the updates novels - Bond in the modern world - just wore off. The James Bond name, no matter how high it was printed on the dustjackets, didn't go anywhere. Its value is now practically nil.

The IFP action is a retrenchment rather than a retreat - draw back into the core, into what people do know and effectively start again. Don't hold your breath for any Gardner or Benson reprints - it's just not economic nor sound business sense to do that at the moment

An off the cuff (as opposed to off the wrist, fnarr) prediction: they will engage someone new. Martin Amis would be very, very expensive on even a per book basis but I can see an anthology of short stories by "noted" authors - which will be the result of a marketing push of the Fleming novels, not the Gardner or Benson novels. Reminding folks of Fleming - going back to the basics - may jigger up public interest, and then what - "Amis does Bond" or "PD James does Bond" or something like that. If we can't sell it on the character name, we sell it on the author.

But that probably ois the last gasp. If that sort of thing doesn't work, then literary Bond probably is over. But by cutting away the chaff of the update novels, it's a strategy - albeit a little cold-hearted - which could well work. And if it does work - in ten or even five years' time, the twenty years or so of Gardner/Benson novels, if not forgotten, will probably have been airbrushed out of history.

I can understand their reasons. Their reasons are little bits of paper with the Queen's head on it. It's nothing personal. It's strictly business.

#103 marktmurphy

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 08:48 AM

Wow. Badgers, eh?
I didn't realise they did that badly. What are the chances of attracting a big name to a series which seems to only sell a few books to a couple of libraries?

Consequently I don't think there's much hope for any new books.

Goodbye Mr Bond.

#104 Blue Eyes

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 09:34 AM

Thanks for getting those figures Jim.

That's a shockingly low number. How is the figured derived? And importantly (or at least I think so anyway) does it gauge Internet sales (through Amazon UK say) or is there any such way to gauge net sales?

#105 Jim

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 09:44 AM

Good question.

Depends on the source

Furthermore depends on how the source calculates the figures.

I think - I think - the information I get is subject to some statistical "scrubbing" involving net book agreements and various tax and commercial credits/debits.

In other words - the figures are for commercial purposes, not necessarily an indication of "shop floor" purchases or internet purchases. I think it involves averages and means and medians and all that sort of fun stuff.

So the figures themselves might not be spot on - may have been more than eleven - but that's a comparative statistical average worked out in some way and by some formula quite beyond me.

In other words - in fact it may have sold dozens but according to this scale, it sold eleven. Whatever the figures are, however, it's still comparative to the books on trams and badgers

I'm not sure whether this source calculates internet sales.

#106 Simon

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 10:15 AM

Very interesting...

Jim, would you happen to know how much an author's salary would be for a permanent job like Bond continuation novels. If "noted authors" were ever to be enticed, it would have to be on an almost voluntary basis - or because they're fans.

#107 Loomis

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 11:35 AM

Jim, any idea how well Benson was doing in the US and other markets? I'd like to think that there are corners of the world where the continuation novels are selling like hot cakes, but somehow I doubt it.

So it would seem that, bar the occasional curiosity such as a collection of short stories by "noted" authors, or maybe someone like Martin Amis penning something for Playboy, the literary Bond is indeed dead.

#108 kevrichardson

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 01:13 PM

Business decisions are very painful for all involved . I am sure that Benson is pained by that has happen.

#109 zencat

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 04:56 PM

Originally posted by Jim
We lucky few "in publishing" - what data we get. August 2002, "The Man with the Red Tattoo" on sale for about - what - three months (in the UK?). 31 days in August, eleven copies sold. Eleven. In a month. In the big holiday month in the UK. Eleven. By way of comparison, it was on a par with two books about the history of the tramways in Oldham and fifteen copies below a book about badgers that was only sold in three bookshops.

11 books sold! Does this figure include online sales?

#110 Dr Noah

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 05:44 PM

Personally I don't see what all the fuss is about. I must admit that I have never read any Benson, but I have read all of Gardners books. A few things come to mind :_

01) The books quality are variable.

02) There is no reason for a new "Bond" book except as a licence to print money ie the books have (or may have just lost) a dedecated audience whou would buy the book on the "Bond brand name".

03) No new books won't have any impact on Bond as a literary character. The Fleming novels will continue to sell well regardless, in the same way that the Sherlock Holmes and Philip Marlowe novels continue to sell and remain in print, despite the deaths of Conan Doyle or Chandler.

#111 Truman-Lodge

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 06:03 PM

Waitwaitwaitwaitwait...

Does Jim mean 11 copies period? I thought he was talking about one particular store in one particular country. Sorry Jim, could you clarify the statistics for me?

#112 Simon

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 06:08 PM

He means that in the month of August, by some numeric means tested fiddling, 11 books were sold......in August.

Not UK total, ever.

#113 Loomis

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 06:17 PM

Originally posted by Simon
He means that in the month of August, by some numeric means tested fiddling, 11 books were sold......in August.

Not UK total, ever.  


Mind you, can the total number for the UK be all that far off? I think some of us would rather not know the total. A Bond fan shudders to think....

#114 Truman-Lodge

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 06:22 PM

That's like a net profit of...$100. How unfortunate. Oh well. The literary series will recover. The movies have been at the brink of death before, and they've always bounced back.

#115 zencat

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 06:22 PM

Originally posted by Simon
He means that in the month of August, by some numeric means tested fiddling, 11 books were sold......in August.

But the book came out in May. I'd like to know the sales figures in May. Why are we looking at August? (Maybe because it was the worst sales month Jim could find? :)) Considering the size of the first print run, it's not hard for me to believe that 4 months later the book only sold 11 copies. I know here in the US most bookstores carried only 4 or 5 copies. I couldn't find a copy in August. That's why I'd like to know if this includes online sales.

#116 Jim

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 08:39 PM

OK

1. 11 in August is nationwide. This is a nation of sixty million people. As explained above the figures are juggled about (and I've never understood how they're juggled) so technically it may have been more than eleven BUT the position doesn't change because all books are subject to it. So it still was on a par with the trams and behind the badgers, regardless of what they sold.

2. I picked August because it is - December aside - the biggest book selling month in the UK. In May, according to this scale, The Man with the Red Tattoo sold 377 copies.

3, Which still isn't brilliant - Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire 17,854 copies that month (it sold 36,822 copies in August) A three year old biography of Brian Clough (former British (cough) soccer club manager) sold 412 copies (although admittedly that was in paperback). Never Dream of Dying sold 32 copies (and that was in paperback)

4. But what that probably goes to show is that people who were waiting for the book to come out waited for the book to come out and then it was practically dead in the water after the first month or so. No word of mouth generated.

5. In May 2002 Dr No sold 554 copies.

#117 kevrichardson

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 08:50 PM

Originally posted by Simon
He means that in the month of August, by some numeric means tested fiddling, 11 books were sold......in August.
Not UK total, ever.

Here is a interesting question . Was Benson know that is verision of literary Bond was not selling ? What are the number in the USA and worldwide for all of Benson's books ,excluding the novelizations of the films( TND ,TWINE ) . Is ther anyone would could do what GArdner did inthe early 80's. Revive Literary Bond or are we stuck with just re-prints of Fleming.

#118 Xenobia

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 10:00 PM

So what we have here is Fleming the name sells more than Benson the name, James Bond be damned.

I can not now remember the name of this genius, (some Sci-fi fans, help me out), but he leased to other Sci-Fi writers the rights to the universe he created, and the characters that "live there." As long as the writers followed very loose guidelines, they could do what they want. The books were sold under the banner of "Author Icantremember's Universe."

Why not then, "Ian Fleming's Secret World" where authors can work not only with James Bond, but with Tanner, Robinson, etc. Even Felix can come back.

I think this could work with certain conditions:

1) Expectations are based on the author and his following.
2) There is an understanding among fans that what one writer does will not be repeated by another author.
3) It will renew interest in Bond as he is seen through different authors.

These different authors could put him back in the fifties, or keep Bond contemporary.

It's a thought.

It could be a bad thought, but I wouldn't mind the experiment of this, particularly if it is presented online where people pay for the privledge of accessing the site with the chapters. (And this site of course, would not be downloadable or printable.)

The "Fleming Universe" would have a finite time period, no more than five years. If at the end of that period, it appears that one writer really has captured the fans interest, then he (or she) is given the Bond copyright, and we are back the old Fleming / Amis / Gardner / Benson model.

-- Xenobia

#119 marktmurphy

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 10:05 PM

But surely most established good writers have their own ideas- why play with somebody else's when you can create your own? Especially when the piece of paper on your publisher's desk says 'Bond sells eleven books'.
I think Jim's onto something with the 'Tram-Badger' novel series idea.

#120 Truman-Lodge

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 10:06 PM

Originally posted by Xenobia
A huge post


That sounds rather similar to Mark's idea. Besides, most fanfiction writers adhere to the "rules" anyway. (Except for that one fanfic in which Bond and Trevelyan have explicit sex...*shudder*)