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Zencat's DAD review: "THE BEST BOND MOVIE EVER?"


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#61 Dr. Tynan

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Posted 25 November 2002 - 04:49 AM

[quote]Originally posted by zencat
I

#62 delfloria

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Posted 25 November 2002 - 06:07 AM

DAD is cutting edge Bond as well as classic Bond in it's structure. Any one who feels there is a problem with the multiple action scenes after the film feels like it should be over needs to look back at FRWL. This film really feels like it should end after the death of grant, but it doesn't. Instead it continues on with a helicopter chase, a boat chase, another scene with Blofeld and with Klebb. Not a perfect structure, by any means, but still the established 007 style set forth in the early films.

#63 JackChase007

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Posted 25 November 2002 - 06:16 AM

Dr. Tynan - it certainly does sound like you enjoyed DAD, and I'm glad to hear that people from Europe did. So it's not just a nation thing...hahaha.

#64 Jim

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Posted 25 November 2002 - 07:55 AM

Originally posted by License To Kill
I agree with all the pro-DADers here!

I think anyone who hated this movie is a frigging moron...Anyone who puts it below 5 is definately not a TRUE BOND FAN.


~LTK~


Opinion or fact?

Not sure I like being called a moron

#65 zencat

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Posted 25 November 2002 - 04:21 PM

Originally posted by Dr. Tynan


Not being rude, but I'm from Europe (the British Isles) and I loved DAD.

Yes, sorry about the generalization, Dr. Tynan. Since posting that I've heard from a great many UK and european DAD lovers. It's all good. :)

#66 B5Erik2

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Posted 25 November 2002 - 04:25 PM

Originally posted by License To Kill
I agree with all the pro-DADers here!

I think anyone who hated this movie is a frigging moron. WHAT AN AWESOME MOVIE. DEFINATELY TIED NUMBER 1 or NUMBER 2. Anyone who puts it below 5 is definately not a TRUE BOND FAN.
~LTK~


Really?

I would argue differently.

It COULD be argued that anyone who needs to be overstimulated by a movie that makes the endings of YOLT, TSWLM, and MR look slow might be the morons. It COULD be argued that those who are in the "bigger is better" category don't get what BOND is all about. Go back and read your Fleming. This ludicrously crass and garish film (well, the last third anyway) is NOT what Fleming created or would have wanted for film adaptations of HIS character. Fleming's Bond is the REAL Bond - without it the movies have no basis or substance, and of course, without Fleming there is no Bond at all!

So then, who are the "true Bond fans?" Those who love DAD, or those who like it to a degree, but have some SERIOUS reservations about the last third of the movie? I would argue for the latter....

Just another perspective...

#67 DLibrasnow

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Posted 25 November 2002 - 04:34 PM

Originally posted by Jim


Opinion or fact?

Not sure I like being called a moron


If the shoe fits...
It's okay Jim, everyone is entitled to an opinion and silly as yours is, it is still your opinion.
Of course I'm kidding....when I first saw DAD I wasn't sure about it either, it was only on the second viewing that I really appreciated it. I've seen it three times now and consider it one of the best in the series.
So, DAD has gone from the bottom of my list to close to the top. I like the way they have updated the formula, it just takes a little getting used to.

#68 zencat

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Posted 25 November 2002 - 04:57 PM

Originally posted by B5Erik2
...It COULD be argued that those who are in the "bigger is better" category don't get what BOND is all about.  Go back and read your Fleming.  This ludicrously crass and garish film (well, the last third anyway) is NOT what Fleming created or would have wanted for film adaptations of HIS character.  Fleming's Bond is the REAL Bond - without it the movies have no basis or substance, and of course, without Fleming there is no Bond at all!


Well said, B5Erik2, but I would argue that there is a Fleming Bond and a Movie Bond and most Bond fans understand this and love both. I think Cubby and team cleaved away from Fleming

#69 B5Erik2

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Posted 25 November 2002 - 05:26 PM

The best Bond films - the ones that hold up better over time - are the ones more closely related to the original Fleming Bond. Licence To Kill (even though it was an original story it was very Fleming-esque) could be from today. It isn't dated (not much anyway), even the cold war stories of From Russia With Love and For Your Eyes only don't LOOK as dated as the epics YOLT, TSWLM, and MR.

The larger the scale of the Bond film, the sooner it becomes dated.

And who says that the mass audience won't go for a more realistic Bond film? For Your Eyes Only did very well at the box office, as did The Living Daylights. Licence To Kill tanked in the U.S. for a multitude of reasons (competition, VERY POOR marketing, and just apathy after 15 or so prior Bond films in rapid succession), but it still scored better with test audiences than any other Bond film had.

Goldeneye was big, but not ridiculously so - DAD is RIDICULOUSLY big.

They can go TOO FAR in trying to create the EPIC Bond movie, and with DAD, IMO they did. WAY too far.

#70 JackChase007

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Posted 25 November 2002 - 05:36 PM

B5Erik2:

Then what side would I be on? Am I a "moron" or not? You see, I love the original Fleming novels, but I also love the movies (with the exception of Moonraker). I especially love DAD because it combines all of Fleming's elements with a really fun adventure movie. The Spy Who Loved Me is regarded as one of the best Bond movies, yet it doesn't borrow a single element from the novel, and is far from a Fleming Bond story.

Now, although I am a huge fan of DAD, I do not agree with those who say that "people who don't like DAD are morons". That isn't true. You see, there is this little thing called an "opinion". It allows you to like or appreciate things that others might like. I do understand that you don't appreciate being called a moron, but how does it make you any better to do the same to those of us who like DAD, but still respect the opinions of those who don't???

Let those who like DAD like it. Let those who don't like it not like it. To each his own, my friends, to each his own.

#71 zencat

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Posted 25 November 2002 - 05:38 PM

I think audiences perfer the bigger Bonds and I think Eon has (finally) woken up to that fact. Maybe DAD is too big for some Bond fans, but I think it's just right for the mass audience and for the times. Of course, I liked Moonraker. :)

And let's cool it with the "moron" talk everybody.

#72 B5Erik2

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Posted 25 November 2002 - 05:58 PM

Moonraker sucked! :)

The thing is, they can have a big movie with lots of action, but still keep it grounded in reality. Licence To Kill had plenty of action, as did The Living Daylights.

Hell, you don't NEED a Bond movie any bigger than Goldeneye to win over the "mass" audience - but with Die Another Day they took it so far beyond the scale and volume of Goldeneye that it became absurd.

They CAN balance the need to win over the mass audience while still pleasing the Bond die-hards. They did that nearly perfectly with Goldeneye. They almost did it with TWINE (the plot was a bit too convoluted), and I think that they came closer (MUCH closer) with Tomorrow Never Dies than with Die Another Day.

By completely discounting the group of fans that wants a smaller scale Bond EON risks losing a core audience for Bond. Without us DAD only does $35 million in its opening weekend in the U.S. (if that much). Now, they would need to do another movie this large to turn this core group off, but if they do they will not only be losing box office, but video sales, etc. Can they make up for it with the "mass" audience? Maybe - but that's a big risk.

BALANCE - that's all I ask. Keep the action real. REAL stuntpeople doing REAL stunts. And don't have aircraft (or anything else) blatantly breaking the laws of physics (bending the laws of physics is what Bond is all about - but not breaking them). And make sure that Bond has some motivation - something for the actor playing Bond to latch on to. I loved Bond (the character) in TLD, LTK, GE, and TWINE - he was a real person (a real person in unreal circumstances, with unreal training and abilities, but a real person nonetheless).

That's not too much to ask for, is it?

#73 zencat

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Posted 25 November 2002 - 06:23 PM

I agree. Balance is good. That's why Goldfinger and TSWLM are still two of my favorite Bonds. I think these two films best achieved a balance between Fleming's Bond and the Movie Bond.

#74 General Koskov

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Posted 25 November 2002 - 06:55 PM

I agree with the 'balance' crowd here.

All they have to do is get rid of the laser scene, and stick a sweeping view of Korea at the end rather than just fading from Jinx and Bond. The camera sweep could show the cars planted in the fields, and give the audience a good laugh (rather than while Bond flies to the house). Or we could have M looking through a spy satellite and she (along with the rest of the intel. people in the 39th parallel) would see the crashed cars and say, 'Bond was here.'

#75 Evil Doctor Cheese

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Posted 25 November 2002 - 07:29 PM

I'm with balance and I am so, so sure they tried to get balance with this one. The thing is that they made a Flemming Bond first half and a more Movie Bond in the second half rather than intregating them.

I like both. I like the mixture... but there wasn't enough mixture here. Anyway... it seems like it needs a few viewings and a step away from the hype for you to truely love this new film. I;m going to watch it again on Wednesday hopefully.

I must applaud the film for freeing the series up a little. I mean in the flashbacks... a no-no usually but really worked. Like the map over the FRWL train ride. Just wanted to say that. The problem for some people was too much change too quickly. Just a huge shock. Still won't ever like the slow mo but I LOVED the fast moving soaring. Slow mo wasn't needed for the emotional Moon's death or the silly flick of the coat. it worked fine in some fight scenes and car chases etc.

Time for a second viewing... but I know I don't like Roger Moore Bonds and I know that Pierce shouldn't go around trying to be in one. A silly move by the producers.

#76 Evil Doctor Cheese

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Posted 25 November 2002 - 07:31 PM

BTW... the class of the first half really made me want to finish writing my fan fiction. "But I don't need a wheel chair" "You do now!" Classic!

#77 Evil Doctor Cheese

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Posted 25 November 2002 - 07:33 PM

Sorry to keep posting seperately..keep thinking of other things. What ever happened to "James Bond will return" straight after fading out? That would've ended the oddly weak (and unfunny) ending on a huge high especially since the good reactions suggests the audience can't wait for him to do so.

#78 mrmoon

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Posted 25 November 2002 - 09:13 PM

Originally posted by B5Erik2

It COULD be argued that those who are in the "bigger is better" category don't get what BOND is all about.  Go back and read your Fleming.  This ludicrously crass and garish film (well, the last third anyway) is NOT what Fleming created or would have wanted for film adaptations of HIS character.  Fleming's Bond is the REAL Bond - without it the movies have no basis or substance, and of course, without Fleming there is no Bond at all!


That's like saying we should all be walking around in animal skins and living in caves because that's how we were originally. You see things evolve, I personally believe 'true Bond fans' are those who enjoy Bond and everything it encompasses, if the Bond movies had followed the trend you suggest we wouldn't be here talking about Die Another Day so just think about that. Just because people think Die Another Day is a great film doesn't mean they disrespect Fleming, the books and the films are two seperate entities.



Originally posted by B5Erik2

So then, who are the "true Bond fans?"  Those who love DAD, or those who like it to a degree, but have some SERIOUS reservations about the last third of the movie?  I would argue for the latter....


Now that is a 'ridiculous' comment you can't ascertain a true Bond fan from a fan by that criteria that's simply stupid.

#79 Dr. Tynan

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Posted 25 November 2002 - 09:32 PM

Originally posted by zencat

Yes, sorry about the generalization, Dr. Tynan. Since posting that I've heard from a great many UK and european DAD lovers. It's all good. :)


No Probs Zencat :)

To say that I liked DAD would be a savage understatement. It's early days, but I turned to my pal and said "I'd maybe even say that DAD is my favourite Bond movie".

It's definitely in my top 5.

Yes it had it's faults (like all that unrealistic background projection), but nothing that really bothered me.

#80 Dr. Tynan

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Posted 25 November 2002 - 09:48 PM

Thought my connection was about to run out.

It had a viciousness to it that the other Brosnan movies have lacked (Bond's torture.)

It was weird in a good way (Bond with a beard at the start, M turning against Bond).

It had some mega explosions.

All the Bonds have at least one scene in them that for some reason I just think are ultra cool.

Some are

LTK - Dario saying "Don't worry, we gave her a nice Honeymooon!!" to Felix.

Die Another Day - The guy getting punched and kicked in that punchbag...brilliant.

More later.

#81 ray t

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Posted 25 November 2002 - 09:51 PM

Originally posted by B5Erik2
YOLT, TSWLM, and MR.../The larger the scale of the Bond film, the sooner it becomes dated.

And who says that the mass audience won't go for a more realistic Bond film?  For Your Eyes Only did very well at the box office,


Moonraker dated? u MUST be joking...moonraker was AHEAD of its time...it could happen even now.


as for the so-called REALISTIC For Your Eyes Only...HA HA!!!...at least 007 didnt have to rely on a TALKING PARROT to help him save the world in Die Another Day.

by the way...you FYEO / "realistic bond" lovers, did i mention the TALKING BIRD...yep...make sure you form an alliance with talking birds and animals when you go spying off next time:rolleyes:

Die Another Day blows For Your Eyes Only to kingdom come...and i saw them both on the big screen on OPENING DAY

i hope james bond wont have to rely on talking parrots or animals like flipper or lassie any time soon

#82 Robinson

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Posted 26 November 2002 - 04:00 AM

Originally posted by jeff319

Overall it was one of the best Bond movies ever, a nice rebound from TND and TWINE. I'd place it at a cool #11 on my series ranking.


I thought the first hour of DAD was great and the film as a whole was good. My caveats are similar to jeff319:

1- Halle Berry: No real dialogue for Halle to work with. Tired-*** double-entendres get in the way of real conversation(see GE for the interaction between Pussy and Bond).

2) Iceland was cool, however, it seemed that the producers wanted to get their money's worth from this location. Granted, this was the perfect location to show off the Vanquish.

3) Most of the CGI scenes were unnecessary(except for the cargo plane). I'd rather the producers go back to forced perspective miniatures and realtime stunts. The best CGI sequence in the Brosnan era had to be his fall from the balloon in TWINE.

4) Pierce is starting to slow down. Bring Terry Rawlings back to edit some of the action scenes. We don't need all of these action scenes in each flick. Let's go back to Connery's economy of movement in films like GF & TB: a quick karate chop and a phone receiver wrapped around the neck. This could add another, possibly two more Brosnan Bond flicks(if that's your thing).

5) Wasted henchman. Zao's departure was premature. Although not as unforgiveable as the underutilization of Robert Carlyle in TWINE, the producers have killed off a villian with an interesting look and untapped potential(Zao's the Boba Fett of the Bond series).

6) Madonna's "song" isn't a Bond record. It's not even a decent Madonna record. That being said, I'm tired of MGM's constant quest to have a Bond song go "number 1." What's the matter, was O-Town too busy to sing the title track?

6.5) Robinson: I want more dialogue in the next one! Damnit, I've the coolest voice in cinema right now. Let's start one of those internet petitions.

I liked this film, it's the second best of Brosnan's tenure(GE being the first) and it's one of the best Bond films I've seen since "in the theater" since my first(Moonraker). I can't rank the film but I will get the DVD the first week in comes out.

That is all... But ROBINSON WILL RETURN.

#83 Ed King

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Posted 14 August 2003 - 12:36 AM

Originally posted by DLibrasnow


If the shoe fits...
It's okay Jim, everyone is entitled to an opinion and silly as yours is, it is still your opinion.
Of course I'm kidding....when I first saw DAD I wasn't sure about it either, it was only on the second viewing that I really appreciated it. I've seen it three times now and consider it one of the best in the series.  
So, DAD has gone from the bottom of my list to close to the top. I like the way they have updated the formula, it just takes a little getting used to.

Wow! It's kinda fun reading old posts... and seeing how people can change their opinion.

#84 DLibrasnow

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Posted 14 August 2003 - 12:43 AM

Originally posted by General Koskov
The Jinx rescucitation and subsequent meeting with MI6/CIA was good, but what the hell were the torpedo-with-wings things that Jinx and Bond just abandoned in mid-air?  Why not just parachute onto Graves' plane and eliminate the useless spying/fence cutting scene.  I'd like to see Bond have to get into a jumbo jet as he did in OP.


I think you are missing the point Gen. Koskov....Bond and Jinx never planned to board the plane, but to finish Graves off on the ground before he boarded the thing.

#85 DLibrasnow

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Posted 14 August 2003 - 12:44 AM

Originally posted by Ed King

Wow! It's kinda fun reading old posts... and seeing how people can change their opinion.


Yep....up and down... :) But I have always consistently hated TWINE...

#86 zencat

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Posted 14 August 2003 - 01:02 AM

Originally posted by Ed King

Wow! It's kinda fun reading old posts... and seeing how people can change their opinion.

Okay, maybe it wasn't "the best Bond film ever", but it was unquestionably the best Bond theater going experience I've ever had and maybe that had something to do with it. When I'm in the mood, I'm easily seduced. :)

#87 Ed King

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Posted 14 August 2003 - 03:15 AM

Originally posted by zencat

Okay, maybe it wasn't "the best Bond film ever", but it was unquestionably the best Bond theater going experience I've ever had and maybe that had something to do with it. When I'm in the mood, I'm easily seduced.  :)

If you say so... have fun with DAD... going a little off-topic, I remember that when I just finished watching TWINE, I just loved it, and I felt guilty, because I tought that it was kinda "wrong" liking the newest Bond movies (GE, TND and TWINE) and Bond movies that were usually bashed (MR, DAF), instead of the "classics" (FRWL, TB). I thought that I was acting like a stupid teenager, because I liked the most recent ones... that was kind stupid, I know, but time has passed, and my opinion has changed: I still lobe TWINE and GE, but TND has dropped from my fav Bond flicks list, just like MR and DAF. Now, I like FRWL, but I still think that TB is very boring, as the last 30 minutes of TSWLM. I wonder if I'm gonna say "DAD is great and TWINE sucks" one day.

#88 MrDraco

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Posted 14 August 2003 - 05:39 AM

Put simply it was the best,
honestly i haven't had more fun at a bond film in theaters since Goldeneye and Tomorrow never dies....I left with the edge, the will to be like bond, unlike THe world is not enough where i came out and said "EON needs to get there **** togather."
Die Another Day was bold in every element if you think about it photography, scenes, CGI, stunts etc... every thing was bold and big and it worked masterfully...so i say un-to you................................................................................................................Play it again sam.

#89 YOLT

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Posted 14 August 2003 - 06:46 AM

DAD is a great film, its in my top 10 but not as great as TND. It was the first and sadly the last time when I feel the great Bond feeling in cinema ( I just watched the Brosnan ones in cinema). DAD was really good but the mission feel was not there, I think.

#90 Bond_Bishop

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Posted 14 August 2003 - 06:49 AM

Yes Die Another Day was a good movie. But not the best. I thinks it was too many CGI scenes and that invincible car, not good.The rest it's fabulous. Especelly the swordfight. That was classic Bond style.




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