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Madeleine Swann is Tracy Bond?


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#1 Surrie

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 08:27 PM

Continuity has been a point of focus in Craig's era so far and I know there are a lot of rumours regarding whether he will be back for Bond 25 or not - if Craig was to return for Bond 25 do we think EON will continue with the continuity that we have seen throughout his films or not? 

 

The end of SPECTRE can go in either direction. As we know we have seen Bond with the Bond girl at the end of many a Bond film happily enjoying each others company!  :P Will EON go down this route with SPECTRE and further films or will we see Madeleine return for Bond 25, thus maintaining this continuity of Craig's era.

 

If EON do bring her back (which I'm almost hoping they don't - let's return to the old ways!) then I feel they will focus on a more OHMSS style film and nod to the character of Tracy Bond. Potentially killing Madeleine off in the PTS after her and Bond are married - bringing Bond back to MI6 to pursue Blofeld once again. 

 

What does everyone else take from the end of SPECTRE? And do you also feel as though EON are building up to a OHMSS style plot? 



#2 PrinceKamalKhan

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 09:26 PM

Continuity has been a point of focus in Craig's era so far and I know there are a lot of rumours regarding whether he will be back for Bond 25 or not - if Craig was to return for Bond 25 do we think EON will continue with the continuity that we have seen throughout his films or not? 

 

The end of SPECTRE can go in either direction. As we know we have seen Bond with the Bond girl at the end of many a Bond film happily enjoying each others company!  :P Will EON go down this route with SPECTRE and further films or will we see Madeleine return for Bond 25, thus maintaining this continuity of Craig's era.

 

If EON do bring her back (which I'm almost hoping they don't - let's return to the old ways!) then I feel they will focus on a more OHMSS style film and nod to the character of Tracy Bond. Potentially killing Madeleine off in the PTS after her and Bond are married - bringing Bond back to MI6 to pursue Blofeld once again. 

 

What does everyone else take from the end of SPECTRE? And do you also feel as though EON are building up to a OHMSS style plot? 

 

 

I'm kind of hoping they don't bring Madeleine back either. I consider her neither one of the best nor one of the worst heroines in the series and she was fine for this film but I think her fate should be like Honey Ryder's, Domino Derval's, Kissy Suzuki's, Melina Havelock's, Kara Milovy's, i.e. she's gone by the next series entry and it's left up to the viewers' imaginations what happened to them.

 

However, if they do bring her back she would need to be eliminated in the opening scene in the scenario you suggested. The plus side of that would be us getting to see potentially how a Lazenby in DAF scenario mighty've played out. The negative would be we've already kind of been thru this type of scenario with Vesper in the Craig era. Whether Craig returns for Bond 25 or not will be a determining factor here. But Blofeld(whether played by Waltz or not) definitely can and should return with or without Craig or Madeleine.



#3 Dustin

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 09:32 PM

Actually I think SPECTRE was supposed to be a kind of - very loose - OHMSS reshuffle:
Bond's love interest is a gangster's daughter, his adversary hides behind an alias, Bond knows his real identity, the villain's plot involves a global scale, the villain's headquarters are blown up but he's still active anyway, so on. Nothing in SPECTRE really lives up to OHMSS but it was surely their aim to merry TB and OHMSS with SPECTRE.

As for going beyond: if Craig returns - and nothing currently indicates he won't - then there should be some way out of the Tracy-Catch-22 other than the obvious route. At least they ought to try and leave Madeleine out till the end of BOND 25...

#4 hilly

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 09:49 PM

I don't think they should bring her back.

I'd no more expect to see her again than I would have expected to see Bond still seeing Domino, Anya or Tiffany Case. The final shot of Spectre simply said that they were off to have some fun..



#5 tdalton

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 09:53 PM

Actually I think SPECTRE was supposed to be a kind of - very loose - OHMSS reshuffle:
Bond's love interest is a gangster's daughter, his adversary hides behind an alias, Bond knows his real identity, the villain's plot involves a global scale, the villain's headquarters are blown up but he's still active anyway, so on. Nothing in SPECTRE really lives up to OHMSS but it was surely their aim to merry TB and OHMSS with SPECTRE.

 

That was pretty much what I thought as well when I'd seen all of the SPECTRE spoilers. 

 

 

As for going beyond: if Craig returns - and nothing currently indicates he won't - then there should be some way out of the Tracy-Catch-22 other than the obvious route. At least they ought to try and leave Madeleine out till the end of BOND 25...

I think this would only work if Craig was willing, and expressed this in advance of the development of the Bond 25 script, to return for Bond 26.  I'd be in favor of it, though, as it would allow for at least some kind of standalone, or at the very least non-revenge, film before we get the obligatory revenge film to end Craig's tenure.

 

Sadly, I think we'll get the blatantly obvious coming our way in Bond 25.  I know I've been on record, more than once, regarding EON adapting You Only Live Twice, but I'm not sure I want that anymore, at least not until we've gotten new writers and a new director in place for at least one film that have proven that they're up to the task.  The current team of writers would, IMO, do an abysmal job of adapting You Only Live Twice.



#6 Dustin

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 10:18 PM

Well, you could always deal with Blofeld and Spectre in BOND 25, finish them off for good and definitely. And only then have their last scheme deal with Madeleine. Nobody left to take revenge on; end of the road for Craig. Clean slate for whoever follows.

#7 tdalton

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 10:28 PM

I doubt EON could pull off something like that, as it would be far too subtle for the team of writers they currently employ. These are the same people that thought it wise to borrow a major plot point from Austin Powers in Goldmember.

#8 DaveBond21

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 06:18 AM

I don't think Lea Seydoux will be in the next Bond movie.



#9 Dustin

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 08:10 AM

Neither do I, they'd have to have offered her a contract with an option on one more film to have her safely on board. And for her kind of role in a Bond film that is largely unheard of. I think this might have leaked in some way by now. No, I don't see her return.

#10 Surrie

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 09:17 AM

 

Continuity has been a point of focus in Craig's era so far and I know there are a lot of rumours regarding whether he will be back for Bond 25 or not - if Craig was to return for Bond 25 do we think EON will continue with the continuity that we have seen throughout his films or not? 

 

The end of SPECTRE can go in either direction. As we know we have seen Bond with the Bond girl at the end of many a Bond film happily enjoying each others company!  :P Will EON go down this route with SPECTRE and further films or will we see Madeleine return for Bond 25, thus maintaining this continuity of Craig's era.

 

If EON do bring her back (which I'm almost hoping they don't - let's return to the old ways!) then I feel they will focus on a more OHMSS style film and nod to the character of Tracy Bond. Potentially killing Madeleine off in the PTS after her and Bond are married - bringing Bond back to MI6 to pursue Blofeld once again. 

 

What does everyone else take from the end of SPECTRE? And do you also feel as though EON are building up to a OHMSS style plot? 

 

 

I'm kind of hoping they don't bring Madeleine back either. I consider her neither one of the best nor one of the worst heroines in the series and she was fine for this film but I think her fate should be like Honey Ryder's, Domino Derval's, Kissy Suzuki's, Melina Havelock's, Kara Milovy's, i.e. she's gone by the next series entry and it's left up to the viewers' imaginations what happened to them.

 

However, if they do bring her back she would need to be eliminated in the opening scene in the scenario you suggested. The plus side of that would be us getting to see potentially how a Lazenby in DAF scenario mighty've played out. The negative would be we've already kind of been thru this type of scenario with Vesper in the Craig era. Whether Craig returns for Bond 25 or not will be a determining factor here. But Blofeld(whether played by Waltz or not) definitely can and should return with or without Craig or Madeleine.

 

 

I am firmly of the view that we should be allowed to imagine that they had a bit of fun together and then Bond returns, and Madeleine get's on with her life! But... from what EON have done in Craig's era and continued the story I have a nagging feeling it may not be the last we see of her. It could go 2 ways - we could see them bring her back for Craig's last movie or they could leave SPECTRE at that, having nodded at some of Bond's past behaviour and ways with his women. 

 

Well, you could always deal with Blofeld and Spectre in BOND 25, finish them off for good and definitely. And only then have their last scheme deal with Madeleine. Nobody left to take revenge on; end of the road for Craig. Clean slate for whoever follows.

 

For Bond 7, and BOND 26 I think we will see the slate wiped completely clean!



#11 Berni99

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 07:16 PM

I'm a big fan of Lea Seydoux, and i really hope she will return, and after that ending, i expect that Madeleine Swann is back in the next Bond Movie. Could imagine the same ending as Mission Impossible 4 (Ethan Hunt an his wife) for Bond and Madeleine


Edited by Berni99, 07 December 2015 - 07:19 PM.


#12 Surrie

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 09:20 PM

It would be interesting to see if EON go down this road, and we have seen Bond married once before so it's not impossible. 



#13 Professor Pi

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 10:03 AM

If she is Tracy Bond, her fate has already been filmed.

 

Meanwhile, here's an article on the problem of continuity versus tradition, some of which has been discussed here.

 

http://www.ign.com/a...e-after-spectre



#14 tdalton

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 10:22 AM

Hopefully they don't turn her into a stand-in for Tracy.  As much as I'd like to see You Only Live Twice done properly, I can't say that I particularly want to see it as a follow-up to SPECTRE, for a couple of reasons.  First, I'd rather they do something more interesting with the Swann character than just use her for fodder for yet another revenge plot.  Put her in harm's way, sure, but don't just kill her off in the PTS of the next one to lead into You Only Live Twice.  Second, they need to spend another film or two building SPECTRE up into an entity that is actually menacing.  The organization presented in the film isn't very menacing at all, opting to just talk about what it is that they do rather than actually going about doing it.  They need to show SPECTRE actually doing something in a couple of films before they send Blofeld off to his castle in Japan.



#15 Surrie

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 12:15 PM

I agree - I would like to see a few more films really building on the menace of SPECTRE... but on reflection what better way to do this than by killing off Bonds bride?!



#16 Dustin

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 12:31 PM

Oh there are ways...

How about using Madeleine as a tool for example? Spectre could always lean on her to do their bidding behind Bond's back. There has been very little talk about mothers in all of the oedipal elements SPECTRE brought up.* Perhaps there are further reasons for Madeleine to hide out in that mountain clinic than just her father's eccentric career choices.


*On a side note, Fleming's entire literary canon goes out of its way to omit even the mention of a mother. That's interesting in light of how utterly dominated Fleming was by his own 'M'...

#17 Surrie

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 01:23 PM

Oh there are ways...

How about using Madeleine as a tool for example? Spectre could always lean on her to do their bidding behind Bond's back. There has been very little talk about mothers in all of the oedipal elements SPECTRE brought up.* Perhaps there are further reasons for Madeleine to hide out in that mountain clinic than just her father's eccentric career choices.


*On a side note, Fleming's entire literary canon goes out of its way to omit even the mention of a mother. That's interesting in light of how utterly dominated Fleming was by his own 'M'...

 

Precise reason why there was no mention of a Mother if Fleming was so dominated! 

 

I think if EON do decide to bring Swann back it would be a shame if they killed her off almost immediately. Her background needs to be explored further and it would be a waste of character if they didn't do this. 



#18 Guy Haines

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 12:06 AM

I hope there isn't an OHMSS plot. It's not only too obvious but Bond losing his love to the bad guys - we've been here before with CR 2006.

#19 PrinceKamalKhan

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 12:48 AM

If she is Tracy Bond, her fate has already been filmed.

 

Meanwhile, here's an article on the problem of continuity versus tradition, some of which has been discussed here.

 

http://www.ign.com/a...e-after-spectre

 

Interesting article. Thanks for posting.

 

Hopefully they don't turn her into a stand-in for Tracy.  

 

Agreed. Even though we're in a rebooted continuity, I think Tracy should be his only wife.

 

I hope there isn't an OHMSS plot. It's not only too obvious but Bond losing his love to the bad guys - we've been here before with CR 2006.

 

Agreed.  I don't want to go through that plot again(especially if Craig remains as Bond for another one or more) but I do want SPECTRE to remain for a while after 44 years without them in the series.



#20 Surrie

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 10:22 AM

Where we are at the moment in the franchise (EON's current love for the re-boot, subtle or not!) I am leaning towards the idea of then re-inventing Tracy with Swann. But they would have to do this properly, not rushing and with a team of new writers. 



#21 Guy Haines

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 11:04 AM

Where we are at the moment in the franchise (EON's current love for the re-boot, subtle or not!) I am leaning towards the idea of then re-inventing Tracy with Swann. But they would have to do this properly, not rushing and with a team of new writers.


I rather hope the series doesn't end, for Craig, as a pair of bookends - he loses one love in CR and loses another in tragic circumstances in Bond 25. I hope a more original and imaginative way of either using the character Madeleine or writing her out is devised by the writers. I do, on the other hand think it would be a missed opportunity after all this time not to re-use SPECTRE the organisation - simply implying that Bond has been battling them without knowing it until now since CR doesn't cut it for me.

And I agree about new writers. The next film needs to avoid the problems the writers got themselves into with the current film. As for a new director, although he might never say never, I think it more likely than not that Sam Mendes means it about not doing Bond 25. Even if itis a follow on from SPECTRE, there's no reason why a new director at the helm cannot take up where Mendes left off.

#22 Surrie

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 11:10 AM

I think Mendes' time as a Bond director is up. Let's get Martin Campbell back  ;)


Edited by Surrie, 09 December 2015 - 11:18 AM.


#23 Dustin

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 11:54 AM

If Campbell indeed came back many fans would cheer. But I'm afraid his time with Bond is likewise up, I doubt Eon - or Campbell, for that matter - are looking in that direction.

#24 Surrie

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 11:57 AM

I don't doubt you for a minute - which IMO is a shame. However, the need for something new, and fresh is ever pressing. Bringing Campbell back wouldn't be the right decision for BOND 25... but I can dream!



#25 sharpshooter

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 02:15 PM

Agreed. Even though we're in a rebooted continuity, I think Tracy should be his only wife.

Yes. Madeleine could more or less serve Tracy's role for Craig's Bond, but it's still a different character we're dealing with. So the two don't have to marry and nor does Madeleine have to die. They can take influence but do something different. I quite like the idea of Bond being presumed dead and losing his memory, ala Fleming's YOLT, and not remembering Madeleine. Making Blofeld's torture wish in SPECTRE a reality. The two are parted but they both remain very much alive. 



#26 Surrie

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 02:24 PM

I mentioned this earlier in a thread by tdalton but I'll say it again as I think it's relevant. We were discussing how we would like BOND 25 to incorporate Swann, and Guy Haines came up with a great idea to which I made some alterations:

 

If it was my decision I would have ESB claim he is not responsible for Madeleine's disappearance (which he isn't), but maybe bring back Irma Bunt (again could be used as another nod to Tracy and OHMSS) as the one who has captured Madeleine in the hope she can impress ESB and be ranked higher within SPECTRE. Then, when ESB realises what Bunt has done he praises her and joins forces - Bond then has to go after the both of them to win Madeleine back.

He succeeds and then they really do ride off into the sunset - perhaps in the DB5 after being married and that's the end of Craig's era. He has a heartbreak at 
the start, but all's well that end's well.

A new actor can then come in for Bond 26 (I think EON would struggle to keep Craig past BOND 25) with a blank slate and keep Craig's era on a different timeline.

 

I like the idea of Swann acting as a nod to Tracy (but within a different Bond universe), I think this is plausible as EON have mixed things up a lot in Craig's tenure! If Craig does decide to come back for Bond 25 then it could be a good close to his era, and would always stand alone. 



#27 Dustin

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 04:36 PM

Interesting idea, having Bunt act independently to gain Blofeld's recognition. One always wondered how those two came to the relationship we read about in OHMSS and YOLT. Though it strikes me that Blofeld and Bunt became an item only after the events of OHMSS. For some reason I got the impression she was admiring him in that book, yet hadn't grown to be his intimate girlfriend.

#28 tdalton

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 05:09 PM

I think that they could have easily accomplished the Bunt part of that by simply putting her in Hinx's place in SPECTRE. Hinx seems to act entirely independent of everything else that is going on in the film. The train scene's a pretty good example of that. There's no way that Blofeld ordered Hinx to kill Bond aboard the train. It doesn't make sense for him to, since he was expecting Bond's arrival at the crater base.

There also doesn't seem to be much of a connection between them in the SPECTRE meeting either. Hinx just appears from the shadows and kills the man standing for assignment to Sciarra's post. There's no indication that Blofeld specifically knows who Hinx is, as he asks him for his qualifications to stand for Sciarra's post. There just never seems to be any indication that Hinx's actions are lining up directly with Blofeld's.

They could have used the original idea of having Bunt in the film and then merged that original idea into the Hinx character and really done something interesting with it and, in the process, they might have tightened up the plot a bit as well.

#29 Guy Haines

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 05:53 PM

I think that they could have easily accomplished the Bunt part of that by simply putting her in Hinx's place in SPECTRE. Hinx seems to act entirely independent of everything else that is going on in the film. The train scene's a pretty good example of that. There's no way that Blofeld ordered Hinx to kill Bond aboard the train. It doesn't make sense for him to, since he was expecting Bond's arrival at the crater base.There also doesn't seem to be much of a connection between them in the SPECTRE meeting either. Hinx just appears from the shadows and kills the man standing for assignment to Sciarra's post. There's no indication that Blofeld specifically knows who Hinx is, as he asks him for his qualifications to stand for Sciarra's post. There just never seems to be any indication that Hinx's actions are lining up directly with Blofeld's.They could have used the original idea of having Bunt in the film and then merged that original idea into the Hinx character and really done something interesting with it and, in the process, they might have tightened up the plot a bit as well.


I could see why the villain would have a henchman, and Hinx is a good one. But how he's used in the film sometimes doesn't make sense - such as trying to kill Bond on the train. Unless - we know that on Ms orders Bond has been injected with "nano-blood" to keep track on him. We also know that Denbigh is keeping track on everything, so presumably he could track Bond as well - and would be feeding ESB with information about Bond's location. Of course Denbigh wouldn't tell M about this but M already suspects what's going on, and orders Q to stop the nano program - but by now it's too late. Through C, ESB knows Bond is on his way, and orders Hinx to kill him. He would know, however that Hinx has failed when two figures get off the train - I'm assuming ESBs surveillance programs include access to the same satellites that allowed Q to identify what we later learn is Blofeld's HQ. And so ESB send the Silver Wraith to pick up his "guests", because it looks like, since the hired help has mucked up the job, the boss is going to have to do it himself!

That is the only way I can square Hinx being sent to kill Bond on the train with Blofeld being ready to receive our man and his lady. And I'm far from sure that explanation works! ;-)

#30 tdalton

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 06:16 PM

That does make sense, and may be what they intended, but I do wonder why Blofeld would want that when he clearly wants to gloat to Bond about how he's the "author of all his pain".






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