144 replies to this topic

[RMc2]

 

Remember the sniper rifle Craig eyes when first entering Q's new digs?  After Bond unties Madeleine and they head for the boat, he stops to go off in another direction.  "Where are you going?"  she says, "Come on!"

 

This would have made me much happier!

 

 

That actually works really well! Dammit, yet another wasted opportunity.

 

Yes, that magic Walther shot is quite ridiculous. Might have been even better if Bond had used Hinx' absurd double-barrelled Colt-on-steroids or whatever it's supposed to be.

 

They should've brought back Hinx for a proper fight at the finale (especially if the MI6 setpiece were removed in favour of a Morocco showdown).

 

I'm beginning to wonder if Mendes' work on Penny Dreadful made him forget that films need resolution, rather than teases for more things to come...

[Dustin]

Colt-on-steroids

much like it's proprietor!?

Just so.

As for Hinx himself and his absence from the finale, I feel the series has by now once more reached that state of flexible reality that would allow for a return of Hinx, complete with SM/French fingernails and some new weaponry. Since I'm not too hot on the finale in general I'm actually happy Hinx was spared from a 'definite' end there.

[Professor Pi]

Would have been nice if Hinx was the one who kidnapped Madeleine ... and then Bond had to fight him AND rescue Madeleine.

[Double-Oh Agent]

Remember the sniper rifle Craig eyes when first entering Q's new digs?  After Bond unties Madeleine and they head for the boat, he stops to go off in another direction.  "Where are you going?"  she says, "Come on!"

 

Then when they leave Vauxhall on boat, Bond is seen with the sniper rifle and that is how he shoots down the helicopter!

 

I also wanted a big army battle at the crater.  Moneypenny convincing M to send in the cavalry.  "Alright, but phone only.  We don't want C to know what were doing."  Perfect excuse to call in Felix Leiter's help, since he was name dropped.  Keep the Q kidnapping from the earlier version of the script.   That gives Bond a motivation to go to the desert lair.

 

Didn't care for the way C bought the farm.  Would have been poetic justice if he was at the crater and a drone got him in the ensuing battle.

 

But all in all, I'm fine with the film as is, minus the Oberhauser link.  That will always bug me.  They even screwed up that twist...twice!  The first time, we don't recognize Oberhauser since we didn't see his face on the burned out photo.  Would have been better for the audience had we seen the face that's "not someone I'd forget."  Secondly, the Blofeld name means nothing to Bond but something beyond the fourth wall to the audience.  So the first twist means nothing to us and everything to Bond, the second has the opposite problem.

The problem with using Q's sniper rifle for that scene is that it was located further along the Thames in a different location from the MI6 building. Bond couldn't have gotten it from where he was at without making a side trip and likely costing him his chance at shooting down Blofeld. What would have made more sense is if a rifle was kept on board the boat he and Madeleine escaped the demolishing MI6 headquarters from--and he used that to shoot down Blofeld's helicopter. (Or even one of the thugs he escaped from outside MI6 before he went inside, if one of them had been carrying a rifle, he could have grabbed it from them and used it.)

 

I didn't like Denbigh's demise either. Two men are fighting, the gun they are struggling over goes off, glass falls down on them causing both men to step back and he loses his balance and falls out the window? Nope, not a fan. I'd rather Denbigh fell over the edge during the struggle or M shoves him off.

[tdalton]

Been thinking about how to go about "fixing" SPECTRE since sitting down to type up my review of it last night. There are several ways in which the film could have been strengthened into something that could have been an all-time classic Bond film instead of just being the rather solid Bond film that it is.

Bond on a regular mission investigating the terrorist attacks in Tunisia and elsewhere that the film mentions.
SPECTRE's team of writers commit one of the cardinal sins of writing, opting to simply tell the audience about how evil SPECTRE is rather than showing us. They've committed several acts of terror around the globe, presumably to get the nations of the world to sign up for the Nine Eyes program. That's fine, a solid basis for the film. It also gives us a terrific gateway into the proceedings without having to make things overly personal for Bond or taking him on yet another rogue assignment. Tweak the pre-titles so that the Day of the Dead assassination is sanctioned by M and carry on with it. After the title sequence, all hell breaks loose in several parts of the globe (Tunisia, elsewhere) and M sends Bond to investigate.

Bond is now on an officially sanctioned mission that doesn't seem to hold any personal stakes for him. He needs to find out who is behind the terrorist attacks and bring them to justice. As he investigates the proceedings, he stumbles upon links to something more sinister going on behind the scenes and ultimately uncovers a link to SPECTRE.

Drop the whole idea of Franz Oberhauser, just call him Ernst Stavro Blofeld and be done with it
With Bond on a non-personal mission that ultimately leads him to SPECTRE, there's no need for Blofeld to be Bond's brother, and there's no need for the Franz Oberhauser identity to exist. Just make Blofeld who he is, the leader of the SPECTRE organization. Keep him bathed in darkness for most of the film and, if need be, reveal him towards the end rather than blow all of that in the early going. He also needs to be featured more. Much more.

And on this, the whole SPECTRE meeting needs to be overhauled. For such an anticipated scene, it doesn't come over very well. Demonstrate Blofeld's dominance of the group, show him to be the frightening presence that he is, and not by having some lackey move the microphone a fraction of an inch closer to him. Have him dispatch one of the members himself, or have someone else do it under his orders. The Hinx thing comes from nowhere, Blofeld doesn't seem to know who he is, and it's not ever clear that Hinx is doing anything other than operating under his own orders rather than Blofeld's.

Replace "Hinx" with Irma Bunt
I like Dave Bautista, and I thought he did a tremendous job with the Hinx character, especially considering that the writers gave him quite literally nothing to work with. Still, I think I'd replace him with what would essentially be a female version of Hinx and call her Irma Bunt.

Bunt would function in much the same way that Hinx does, and be just as dominating a physical force, but she's be working much more in concert with Blofeld. As cool as the train fight is, I'd either take it out or relocate it to somewhere else in the film so that it makes some sense from a plot perspective. The could go with the original idea of having the character be attraced to Madelein Swann, which would give a different perspective to the motivations behind Swann's potential death in the next installment should they opt to make her into a Tracy-like character and have her serve as the motivation for an adaptation of You Only Live Twice. I'm not in favor of killing Swann off, but setting it up as a possibility would make sense to help develop the next installment.

Further develop the Bond/Swann relationship
Lea Seydoux is easily the best thing about SPECTRE. She needs more screentime and needs to be introduced much earlier. Her relationship with Bond also needs to be developed much, much more. Further developing this relationship while cutting out all of the Blofeld/Oberhauser nonsense as well as the rogue elements would make SPECTRE one of the very best films in the franchise.

[Surrie]

Replace "Hinx" with Irma Bunt
I like Dave Bautista, and I thought he did a tremendous job with the Hinx character, especially considering that the writers gave him quite literally nothing to work with. Still, I think I'd replace him with what would essentially be a female version of Hinx and call her Irma Bunt.

Bunt would function in much the same way that Hinx does, and be just as dominating a physical force, but she's be working much more in concert with Blofeld. As cool as the train fight is, I'd either take it out or relocate it to somewhere else in the film so that it makes some sense from a plot perspective. The could go with the original idea of having the character be attraced to Madelein Swann, which would give a different perspective to the motivations behind Swann's potential death in the next installment should they opt to make her into a Tracy-like character and have her serve as the motivation for an adaptation of You Only Live Twice. I'm not in favor of killing Swann off, but setting it up as a possibility would make sense to help develop the next installment.

Further develop the Bond/Swann relationship
Lea Seydoux is easily the best thing about SPECTRE. She needs more screentime and needs to be introduced much earlier. Her relationship with Bond also needs to be developed much, much more. Further developing this relationship while cutting out all of the Blofeld/Oberhauser nonsense as well as the rogue elements would make SPECTRE one of the very best films in the franchise.

 

These two points were my main gripes with the film. It's actually quite frustrating that SPECTRE just missed out on being a perfect Bond film. It's my favourite Craig one by far but had these two points been followed through then I think it would be in my Top 3 all time. I do think that Waltz was dramatically underused, but there may be a reason for that - I think they want him back for BOND 25. 

[AMC Hornet]

 

 What would have made more sense is if a rifle was kept on board the boat he and Madeleine escaped the demolishing MI6 headquarters from--and he used that to shoot down Blofeld's helicopter.

 

My problem with this -and I suppose this belongs in the 'Loose Threads and Unanswered Questions' thread - is:

 

Why was there a boat there at all? The building was going to be imploded that night at midnight. There was no indication that Blofeld's men were going to use it; in fact, it appeared to be identical to the one Bond and Tanner used earlier, so it was probably MoD property. To leave an armed boat bobbing around would have made even less sense.

 

Perhaps Bond should have emptied his Walther first, then used the heavier pistol, that's all.

[Dustin]

Also a nice touch to schedule the blow for midnight, Londoners love to be knocked from their beds in the middle of the night by huge explosions...

Was this maybe supposed to be New Year's Eve at some stage of the script?

[SecretAgentFan]

Not as far as I know.

 

But I agree with the boat being there - Bloferhauser is definitely a bad planner.

 

And his pilot is pretty awkward, too.  With all the time to pull up, he lets Bond come near and shoot them down.  That, IMO, was one of the lamest ideas within the whole movie (and series).

[glidrose]

Also a nice touch to schedule the blow for midnight, Londoners love to be knocked from their beds in the middle of the night by huge explosions...

Was this maybe supposed to be New Year's Eve at some stage of the script?

Not according to the leaked drafts.

[Dustin]

Well, the Day of the Dead is in November, you could have had the rest of the story in any period from a few days to six weeks or more. I actually would have welcomed a Bond film that again gives us some sense of time.

[SecretAgentFan]

Absolutely.  A New Year´s Eve finale in London would also have been visually much more interesting.   Although it would have been costlier, and I believe they run out of money.  According to the Sony leaks the finale in one of the later drafts taking place in the rain was considered as too costly, if I remember correctly.  Unfortunately, that resulted in a tv movie ending.

[seawolfnyy]

The film needed more Blofeld. If he is meant to be the main villain, he needs more than 20 minutes of screen time. Especially in a film that is 2 1/2 hours long.

[rubixcub]

Agree with many of these.  Sat through the whole movie thinking of what I would've done differently.  Little clarifiers & changes would've made a lot of difference.  These points are basically in the order they occurred / were dealt with in the film, not in any sort of priority order:

 

1) Why does Bond remove Sciarra's ring?  How does he know to perform such a seemingly random act in pursuit of information?  Two possible fixes, the 1st simple, the 2nd complex:

Fix 1: two quick close-up shots of the SPECTRE ring on both Sciarra's & the helicopter pilot's fingers, indicating Bond's point of view and him making a connection that the rings are a significant symbol of this organization

Fix 2: instead of Sciarra falling from the helicopter at a random point in the fight, have him begin to fall from the helicopter but saved by his ring catching on something (a door latch, hinge, exposed metal edge, etc.), at which point, Bond catches his breath and casually removes the ring (probably with a pithy remark), thereby dispatching him

 

2) Why does M tape a video for Bond?  Why must his mission be secret and off the books?  This could be solved with the addition of a line such as: "Some ugly noises are coming from upstairs, and if certain people have their way, then even our own walls will soon have ears."  This would imply the coming of Nine Eyes, which would've been in a developmental stage while the old M was still alive, and M advising Bond to keep it secret in order to keep Nine Eyes at bay.

 

3) If you're going to go for the Oberhauser/Blofeld/foster brother angle, OK, but do it so it feels lived in.  When Moneypenny drops off Bond's personal effects from SF, perhaps she should drop some hint that she went through them, inquiring after the picture of the boy James and the other figures.  This would lead Bond to relay an anecdote about going to live with Oberhauser after losing his parents, and a torturous ordeal he endured as a boy at the hands of Oberhauser's son, and set him up as a bad seed (perhaps Bond caught Franz torturing rats in the basement, and before he could tell him father, Franz locked young James in a trunk in the corner, where he remained for over 24 hours until Hannes found him & whipped the tar out of Franz.)

 

4) Surprisingly low body count on the bad guys' side.  All the murders take place off screen or in previous films.  It would've meant adding to the budget & shooting schedule, but seeing the attacks on the news doesn't have the same effect in a movie as it does in real life.  We need to at least see the South Africa attack.  It would've been even better, IMO, if the two delegates who voted against Nine Eyes were shown to lose their lives in the attack.  Here's how I see the scene: the two delegates are discussing their decision in their office.  A pretty secretary enters and leaves behind some files.  One of the delegates rethinks his decision aloud to the other.  In the outer office, the place bustles with people going about their daily work routine.  The pretty secretary opens her desk drawer and recoils in horror at the sight of a bomb.  The place goes up in flames an instant later.

 

5) Hinx was big & indestructible but had not much character going on.  A sinister quirk would've at least made him more interesting.  At the very least, more facial expressions / reactions / silent comedy from Hinx (like Bond punching Hinx & Hinx giving him a dubious look, as if to say, "really, that's the best you've got?", before landing a heavy blow).

 

6) How did M know about Sciarra's link with SPECTRE, or any of it?  I liked the idea posed by another poster that Lucia had leaked information.   During their conversation, perhaps Lucia could divulge having prevented one of her husband's terrorist attacks -- perhaps he was going to blow up a plane that, coincidentally, Lucia's sister was scheduled to be on.

 

7) The link between Quantum & SPECTRE still confuses me, perhaps because the word Quantum is never uttered in the movie.  IMO, Mr. White seemed to imply that Blofeld's total lack of scruples or limits was the breaking point that caused factions within the group, with the stronger faction swallowing the weaker.  A couple of lines would answer this:

(After hearing White's objections):

"What's the link between Quantum and this... octopus-fanciers club?"

"I just told you.  Some of us had limits, wouldn't go along with the direction he wanted.  Those who did were rewarded with the ring."

"And those who didn't?"

"... I'm the last one left alive."

 

8) Silva being a SPECTRE agent was reaching.  It makes SF make less sense (I had watched it earlier in the day before seeing SP that evening).  It would make more sense to say:

"Silva wasn't technically one of our.  We liaised with him occasionally.  When he came to us with the plan to assassinate your beloved M... and you, in the process... his interests and our aligned.  We supplied him with men and arms, and sincerely wished him good luck."

 

9) Oberhauser taking his mother's name was weak IMO.  I much preferred my own speculation, whereby the infant Ernst Stavro Blofeld was adopted by the childless Oberhausers:

"We're both orphans, James, but whereas you had the luxury of being aware of that fact --"

"Luxury?  Make me an offer.  You can have my luxury."

"-- I was raised without knowledge of my real identity... until you came along.  It was during one of our many arguments, which increased when you came along.  It was after our last little... incident.  Do you still remember what I did to you, James?  Well, anyway, in the middle of screaming at each other, Oberhauser blurted out that I was adopted, and his greatest failure.  You were his second chance as a father."

Continue with him killing his (now found to be adoptive) father, and learning the truth of his lineage, including his birth name.

 

10) Eliminate the fractured London finale & have it instead be about destroying Blofeld's base of operations.  In London, in intercut scenes, M & company could detain C, while Bond searches for a way to destroy the crater base, thus hindering the Nine Eyes nerve center.  Perhaps Q could even use the camera within MI6 as a way of getting a coded message to Bond once he realizes that Bond is inside Nine Eyes HQ.  Blowing the base is classic Bond but it's tossed away so quickly & cursorily in the movie; it could've been a grand climax.

 

Thoughts?

 

Dave

Edited by rubixcub, 19 December 2015 - 08:57 PM.

[Dustin]

Overall sounds far better, I just still don't like the foster brother angle for Blofeld. If that hadn't been used already with good effect for Silva I would have liked Blofeld to be one of M's former agents. That would certainly also better tally with the original's early activities as described by Fleming, a freelance talent launching his own operation and then expanding his scope and ambition.

Initially I was very open to the idea of linking Bond with Blofeld, after all that is just what their respective roles call for, every hero needs the antihero, the negative. But this family stuff just doesn't cut it when we don't care about the family since we haven't seen them (neither Bond's parents nor the Oberhauser home). And Bond doesn't care about the family since he's just not the type. And Blofeld obviously doesn't care since he just killed his father. Suspicious little mention of mothers in this whole affair, apart from the name-stuff. Anyway, we hear Oberhauser killed his own father - but does it really concern us? Hardly, at least not in the way it should grip us.

[Guy Haines]

Agree with many of these. Sat through the whole movie thinking of what I would've done differently. Little clarifiers & changes would've made a lot of difference. These points are basically in the order they occurred / were dealt with in the film, not in any sort of priority order:

1) Why does Bond remove Sciarra's ring? How does he know to perform such a seemingly random act in pursuit of information? Two possible fixes, the 1st simple, the 2nd complex:

Fix 1: two quick close-up shots of the SPECTRE ring on both Sciarra's & the helicopter pilot's fingers, indicating Bond's point of view and him making a connection that the rings are a significant symbol of this organization

Fix 2: instead of Sciarra falling from the helicopter at a random point in the fight, have him begin to fall from the helicopter but saved by his ring catching on something (a door latch, hinge, exposed metal edge, etc.), at which point, Bond catches his breath and casually removes the ring (probably with a pithy remark), thereby dispatching him

2) Why does M tape a video for Bond? Why must his mission be secret and off the books? This could be solved with the addition of a line such as: "Some ugly noises are coming from upstairs, and if certain people have their way, then even our own walls will soon have ears." This would imply the coming of Nine Eyes, which would've been in a developmental stage while the old M was still alive, and M advising Bond to keep it secret in order to keep Nine Eyes at bay.

3) If you're going to go for the Oberhauser/Blofeld/foster brother angle, OK, but do it so it feels lived in. When Moneypenny drops off Bond's personal effects from SF, perhaps she should drop some hint that she went through them, inquiring after the picture of the boy James and the other figures. This would lead Bond to relay an anecdote about going to live with Oberhauser after losing his parents, and a torturous ordeal he endured as a boy at the hands of Oberhauser's son, and set him up as a bad seed (perhaps Bond caught Franz torturing rats in the basement, and before he could tell him father, Franz locked young James in a trunk in the corner, where he remained for over 24 hours until Hannes found him & whipped the tar out of Franz.)

4) Surprisingly low body count on the bad guys' side. All the murders take place off screen or in previous films. It would've meant adding to the budget & shooting schedule, but seeing the attacks on the news doesn't have the same effect in a movie as it does in real life. We need to at least see the South Africa attack. It would've been even better, IMO, if the two delegates who voted against Nine Eyes were shown to lose their lives in the attack. Here's how I see the scene: the two delegates are discussing their decision in their office. A pretty secretary enters and leaves behind some files. One of the delegates rethinks his decision aloud to the other. In the outer office, the place bustles with people going about their daily work routine. The pretty secretary opens her desk drawer and recoils in horror at the sight of a bomb. The place goes up in flames an instant later.

5) Hinx was big & indestructible but had not much character going on. A sinister quirk would've at least made him more interesting. At the very least, more facial expressions / reactions / silent comedy from Hinx (like Bond punching Hinx & Hinx giving him a dubious look, as if to say, "really, that's the best you've got?", before landing a heavy blow).

6) How did M know about Sciarra's link with SPECTRE, or any of it? I liked the idea posed by another poster that Lucia had leaked information. During their conversation, perhaps Lucia could divulge having prevented one of her husband's terrorist attacks -- perhaps he was going to blow up a plane that, coincidentally, Lucia's sister was scheduled to be on.

7) The link between Quantum & SPECTRE still confuses me, perhaps because the word Quantum is never uttered in the movie. IMO, Mr. White seemed to imply that Blofeld's total lack of scruples or limits was the breaking point that caused factions within the group, with the stronger faction swallowing the weaker. A couple of lines would answer this:

(After hearing White's objections):

"What's the link between Quantum and this... octopus-fanciers club?"

"I just told you. Some of us had limits, wouldn't go along with the direction he wanted. Those who did were rewarded with the ring."

"And those who didn't?"

"... I'm the last one left alive."

8) Silva being a SPECTRE agent was reaching. It makes SF make less sense (I had watched it earlier in the day before seeing SP that evening). It would make more sense to say:

"Silva wasn't technically one of our. We liaised with him occasionally. When he came to us with the plan to assassinate your beloved M... and you, in the process... his interests and our aligned. We supplied him with men and arms, and sincerely wished him good luck."

9) Oberhauser taking his mother's name was weak IMO. I much preferred my own speculation, whereby the infant Ernst Stavro Blofeld was adopted by the childless Oberhausers:

"We're both orphans, James, but whereas you had the luxury of being aware of that fact --"

"Luxury? Make me an offer. You can have my luxury."

"-- I was raised without knowledge of my real identity... until you came along. It was during one of our many arguments, which increased when you came along. It was after our last little... incident. Do you still remember what I did to you, James? Well, anyway, in the middle of screaming at each other, Oberhauser blurted out that I was adopted, and his greatest failure. You were his second chance as a father."

Continue with him killing his (now found to be adoptive) father, and learning the truth of his lineage, including his birth name.

10) Eliminate the fractured London finale & have it instead be about destroying Blofeld's base of operations. In London, in intercut scenes, M & company could detain C, while Bond searches for a way to destroy the crater base, thus hindering the Nine Eyes nerve center. Perhaps Q could even use the camera within MI6 as a way of getting a coded message to Bond once he realizes that Bond is inside Nine Eyes HQ. Blowing the base is classic Bond but it's tossed away so quickly & cursorily in the movie; it could've been a grand climax.

Thoughts?

Dave

A lot in there I agree with. The fate of Quantum is dismissed, right down to Mr White actually working for SPECTRE. A brief explanation of what happened to Quantum would have been nice. And I never quite got why it was essential to shut down Nine Eyes in London when Blofeld's base of operations in North Africa - where, presumably all the information would be sent to - had been blown to bits. Bond battling Blofeld on the one hand - with perhaps ESB escaping at the end, but Bond otherwise triumphant - combined with the Whitehall team and Q in particular battling C in London might have made more sense. You could have had Q think he'd failed to shut down Nine Eyes, only to get a "message undeliverable" on his computer because although Nine Eyes is online it has nowhere to send to, because Bond has blown up Blofeld's base.

[Professor Pi]

To answer some of rubixcub's post:

 

#1)  Before the assassination, Bond notices Sciarra is recognized by the ring he holds up.  That's why he takes it.  It's quick, but it's there.

 

#2)  M's video message:  Judi's M was modern and adept with technology ("we prefer not to get our news from CNN"--okay, other Judy M but still) whereas Mallory is very much old school (newspapers, office.)  But in Fleming's novels the second chapter was usually a flashback to the orders given to Bond that started in the first chapter.  This was the first time the films tried to incorporate that, so in that sense, the video message worked well.  But yes, Bond should have taken it to Mallory as a sanctioned mission.

 

#3)  The brother twist:  while I wish it were dropped altogether, the first fault in their twist here is they don't show us, the audience, the face of Oberhauser in the picture.  We don't see it until the crater.  So Bond's epiphany, and his later background check on Franz, means nothing to the audience.  More on that later.

 

#4) Agreed.  SPECTRE should have shown us the Tunisian and Hamburg attacks right after the credits, instead of the newspaper headlines and Bond's dressing down.

 

#5)  Hinx.  I think he's operating on his own.  Oberhauser clearly wants to torture Bond, so why would he send Hinx to kill him on the train?  Also, Oberhauser leaves the Spectre meeting without briefing Hinx on getting Bond.  I think to Hinx, it's his audition to get the henchman job.  And I would have preferred had he smiled before being yanked out of the train instead of the profanity we got.

 

#6)  The best explanation about M knowing of Sciara is that Lucia contacted her.  But her dialog gives us no clue as to this, but it's the only thing that makes sense.

 

#7)  The word "Quantum" is actually mentioned twice in the movie--first by Moneypenny, and then by Q.  Both are odd in that neither knew Bond during Quantum of Solace.  When Q says it, it's instead of Greene--"Le Chiffre, Quantum, Sciara, your friend Sylva."  Quantum might have been Greene's project, and after its failure, SPECTRE shot him in the desert after he injested the can of oil.  It could have just been one of Blofeld's plans that Bond interfered with. Not much more explanation is needed.

 

#8)  Sylva.  I think it's clear Sylva had done work for SPECTRE ("rig an election in Uganda" which is where Obanno is from.)  But Sylva eventually went off the rails and had his own agenda, whether "hacking the Chinese" or killing M.  If SPECTRE knew it was to assassinate M, I'm sure they were fine with it.  They may have only known about Sylva through Severine and their involvement in "the leisure trade."   Though the ring makes it clear that he was a high officer of SPECTRE at one point.  But either way, it doesn't matter for the plot. Either way, Blofeld would try to take credit for it.

 

#9)  An early draft of the script had Bond knowing that Hannes had adopted Franz.  One line of dialog, maybe  Bond to Oberhauser at the Crater, would have cleared this up.  This is where the second part of the twist is a failure.  The name "Ernst Stavro Blofeld" means nothing to Bond, but something to the audience.

 

#10)  The finale should have definitely been a big battle in the crater.  Taking care of C could have been an epilogue, like Whitaker in The Living Daylights, Wint and Kidd in Diamonds Are Forever, or Goldfinger. 

 

Ever since the Sony leaks, we all knew there were problems with the third act of the script.  Even the studio execs knew it, and they were so desperate to fix Logan's mess they hired Purvis and Wade back!  Still, the story as is could have been smoothed over with some backstory that a novelization would have given us (for instance, TWINE had a chapter explaining how Elektra seduced Renard.)  Bond 24 was originally meant as a two parter, so there were just too many ideas to successfully integrate.  That combined with getting the rights to ESB and SPECTRE (probably after the Oberhauser villain was initially scripted) made for a catch 22.

[rubixcub]

To answer some of rubixcub's post:

 

#1)  Before the assassination, Bond notices Sciarra is recognized by the ring he holds up.  That's why he takes it.  It's quick, but it's there.

 

#7)  The word "Quantum" is actually mentioned twice in the movie--first by Moneypenny, and then by Q.  Both are odd in that neither knew Bond during Quantum of Solace.  When Q says it, it's instead of Greene--"Le Chiffre, Quantum, Sciara, your friend Sylva."

 

#8)  Sylva.  I think it's clear Sylva had done work for SPECTRE ("rig an election in Uganda" which is where Obanno is from.)

 

#9)  An early draft of the script had Bond knowing that Hannes had adopted Franz.

 

Didn't catch these on first (to date, only) viewing, or know that they HAD gone that route as per #9.  Thanks!

 

Refresh my memory: who is Obanno?

 

Overall sounds far better, I just still don't like the foster brother angle for Blofeld. If that hadn't been used already with good effect for Silva I would have liked Blofeld to be one of M's former agents. That would certainly also better tally with the original's early activities as described by Fleming, a freelance talent launching his own operation and then expanding his scope and ambition.

Initially I was very open to the idea of linking Bond with Blofeld, after all that is just what their respective roles call for, every hero needs the antihero, the negative. But this family stuff just doesn't cut it when we don't care about the family since we haven't seen them (neither Bond's parents nor the Oberhauser home). And Bond doesn't care about the family since he's just not the type. And Blofeld obviously doesn't care since he just killed his father. Suspicious little mention of mothers in this whole affair, apart from the name-stuff. Anyway, we hear Oberhauser killed his own father - but does it really concern us? Hardly, at least not in the way it should grip us.

 

Oh, I'm not saying I liked the brother angle -- only that, if you're dead-set on doing it, then this is how I would've tweaked it.

 

Dave

[Orion]

Try and enjoy the film without someone saying "not as good as Skyfall"
Am I alone on this board for actually loving the film for what it is? A love letter to what the franchise used to be from what it is now.
 

[Major Tallon]

Obanno is the African warlord in CR who entrusts his money to Le Chiffre.

[AMC Hornet]

Try and enjoy the film without someone saying "not as good as Skyfall"
Am I alone on this board for actually loving the film for what it is? A love letter to what the franchise used to be from what it is now.
 

YANA.

 

There's nothing like reading everyone's Monday morning quarterbacking to sabotage your enjoyment of a film.

 

Hey, guys, Spectre's not going to be redone. Live with it (like Orion and are doing) or hope for the best for the next one. But remember, the more expectations you place on it in advance, the more disappointed you're going to be (haven't you noticed that trend by now?).

[Professor Pi]

I do like SPECTRE and appreciate it for what it is, forgiving its faults.  It's actually these boards that make me appreciate it more.  I even like it more than Skyfall, though I will grant that the latter is probably a better film.  But that half-brother thing is EON's Jar Jar Binks moment. 

[DaveBond21]

 

Try and enjoy the film without someone saying "not as good as Skyfall"
Am I alone on this board for actually loving the film for what it is? A love letter to what the franchise used to be from what it is now.
 

YANA.

 

There's nothing like reading everyone's Monday morning quarterbacking to sabotage your enjoyment of a film.

 

Hey, guys, Spectre's not going to be redone. Live with it (like Orion and are doing) or hope for the best for the next one. But remember, the more expectations you place on it in advance, the more disappointed you're going to be (haven't you noticed that trend by now?).

 

 

Yes I love it as it is, too.

 

If I had to make one slight change, I would have made the whole thing an officially-sanctioned-by-M mission, rather than rogue yet again (does Bond ever follow orders anymore?). While it was nice to see Judi Dench again, there was no need for the whole Bond and M at odds until the end scenario.

[sharpshooter]

I like what the film presents here and in some respects I don't see it as Bond going rogue. Bond is suspended from field duty by the new M. Sure, he's disobeying an order to stop investigating his lead. But nonetheless, it's technically still Bond's free time. He's treating it all as one last mission from his much loved former boss. It's a juggling act between his past and present day reality. He's deciding to stay loyal to Dench's M and her insight, whereas Mallory may still need to prove his true worth to Bond. It's still a time of transition.

[Guy Haines]

Ahead of the release, here in the UK at least, of SPECTRE on DVD/Blu ray, I've thought about it again - how would I have re-done SPECTRE.

I'd have taken out the one thing which annoyed many of us most even though it didn't rankle me much - the "teenage link" between Bond and Blofeld.

I'd have still retained a link of sorts. I might even have had the villain as Franz Oberhauser, son of Hannes - and left until the very end, perhaps, the "bombshell" that Blofeld was the son of the man Bond regarded as a second dad. What I would not have done is have had Bond meet him in his youth. Rather Bond knows him from intelligence reports, maybe encountered him on a previous assignment in his early days as a government agent.Perhaps at that time, like the Blofeld of the books, he was working with "us" but faked his own death - like Trevelyan in GoldenEye - and went rogue because of his greed.

And the reason Blofeld needs Bond dead - apart from him ruining all of SPECTRE's schemes over a decade? Bond was the last person to see him alive, perhaps, and knows who he really is.

As for Franz and Hannes - we discover that Franz was indeed adopted - but after Bond returned home and when Hannes married Frau Blofeld and took charge of her son, who was already a nasty piece of work and coveted Hannes' cache of Nazi gold and killed him for it. He disappears, goes under a variety of names - like the Blofeld of the books - including Franz Oberhauser, but only now at the peak of his powers as head of a global crime syndicate does he adopt the name of his real father - Ernst Stavro Blofeld.

See - a villain with father issues, in more ways than one! But sibling rivalry with Bond - none of it! ;-)

[Jim]

I'd have made the SPECTRE rings milled from the Oberhauser gold stash, and this is how Bond works out who is what and when and how and whether and if. Or something like that.

[Guy Haines]

I'd have made the SPECTRE rings milled from the Oberhauser gold stash, and this is how Bond works out who is what and when and how and whether and if. Or something like that.

Not a bad idea. Q realises it the gold content that links them, Bond has an idea where the gold might have come from.

[RMc2]

Hehe, nice one Guy Haines

 

I don't really mind the "Blofeld is Bond's foster brother" angle. And I don't think the film commits to the idea that Bond created Blofeld - Blofeld just mentions the notion in passing as part of his torture.

 

However, the mystery is pretty cackhandedly done.

 

I would suggest:

 

Either

- Waltz is introduced as Blofeld from his first appearance. The mystery would then have been, "Is Blofeld really his foster brother?" rather than "Who is Christoph Waltz?"

 

Or

- Waltz is immediately introduced as Franz Oberhauser, Bond's foster brother, and is the main villain. The twist is that Oberhauser is a lackey, and Blofeld is somebody else.

 

 

Blofeld could still have been introduced during the torture scene and scarred in a grand escape from the base. It could have been Monica Bellucci, her heels clipping into the room, and her hands picking up the Persian cat...

[Jim]

 

I'd have made the SPECTRE rings milled from the Oberhauser gold stash, and this is how Bond works out who is what and when and how and whether and if. Or something like that.

Not a bad idea. Q realises it the gold content that links them, Bond has an idea where the gold might have come from.

 

 

Yes.

 

As to the foster brother thing, I'd keep the prior connection but have Bloberhauser mock Bond's suggestion that he, Bloberhauser, has done all he has done to get back at Bond, as preposterous, childish, egocentric and melodramatic - however, run instead that Bond has helped him, Bloberhauser, gain control by helpfully killing off internal rivals, Greene and LeChiffre say, without considering the consequence of what comes next, that something worse replaces them (a knowing criticism of how Bond films usually end, rarely thinking of the consequences). I couldn't have done it without you. That sort of vibe. The only way to stop Bloberhauser doing something or other is for James Bond to "die" which is either a physical death or to stop being "James Bond" otherwise it just continues on and on and on. This is why Bond walks off at the end, both M and Bloberhauser dependent on him being James Bond for their differing power-struggle reasons (probably a metaphor for how the Bond series finds itself), and Swann considerably less impressed/reliant on that.

 

(Was this what they were trying to do, though?)

[tdalton]

That's a much better idea than what is presented in the film and would have been a much smarter way of going about things while still keeping the basic framework of the film in place.