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Spectre in Octopussy?


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#1 Revelator

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Posted 04 January 2015 - 04:48 AM

I was reading an article on Octopussy when I came across the following:

 

McClory’s continuing legal claims to the character of Ernst Stavro Blofeld and the SPECTRE organisation scuppered Broccoli’s early plans for the plot of Octopussy. The eponymous character was originally conceived as a villain using research into the death of Tracy Bond to manipulate Bond into joining her vendetta against SPECTRE. 

 

 

Does anyone know more about this? It sounds like a really interesting scenario.

 



#2 tdalton

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Posted 04 January 2015 - 06:29 PM

Never heard of this before, but that would have been a great idea for a Bond film, especially considering that EON hadn't had Bond getting revenge on Blofeld and SPECTRE following the events of On Her Majesty's Secret Service.  

 

It also would have been a good idea coming off the heels of For Your Eyes Only, in which we get our first nod to Tracy since On Her Majesty's Secret Service.



#3 DamnCoffee

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Posted 04 January 2015 - 07:14 PM

What!? As much as I like Octopussy, it does fall into the bland decade of 80's Bond, but this seems like a story that is an interesting break from tradition. Oh, what this series could've been like. Thanks again McClory. 



#4 Call Billy Bob

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 02:39 AM

It also would have been a good idea coming off the heels of For Your Eyes Only, in which we get our first nod to Tracy since On Her Majesty's Secret Service.

I'm pretty sure Anya brought up the fact he was married in TSWLM, and Bond looked visibly upset at the mention.



#5 tdalton

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 03:13 AM

I figured I was probably missing out on a mention of her, but For Your Eyes Only was the only one that I could think of.  The Spy Who Loved Me is one of my least-viewed Bond films, so I'm not surprised that I missed that mention.



#6 Revelator

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 04:12 AM

I was looking through my copy of The Making of On Her Majesty's Secret Service and found a passage I'd completely forgotten about, which mentions that in an early draft of Octopussy there's a scene of Octopussy's girls raiding a Spectre factory that prints counterfeit money. Apparently the earlier scripts portrayed Octopussy as an Asian woman who ran a nightclub in Tokyo and teamed up with Goldfinger's diamond-obsessed brother, Monsieur Diamont...

In any case, we now have confirmation of Spectre's involvement in the genesis of Octopussy.



#7 Mr_Wint

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 10:41 AM

Never heard this before. But I am not surprised since they maybe tested a few new writers (e.g. George Fraser who did the first draft), and that's when these crazy ideas usually comes up. Goldfinger's brother, Tracy's daughter, Blofelds brother etc. Of course, these days EON are so desperate that they actually have to film them.

#8 Guy Haines

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 11:19 AM

It would have been an interesting scenario, like all the other SPECTRE storylines which kept being invented between 1971 and 1983, and post NSNA I dare say. Such as the idea of SPECTRE being taken over by young radicals bent on world destruction in TSWLM - which as I understand it was kyboshed not only because of the legal problems of using anything related to TB post 1975, but also because of worries that some in the audience might actually sympathise with the villains!

 

But getting back to those legal issues, surely it would have been made clear to Bond screenwriters post TSWLM, at the outset of each new film that SPECTRE was off limits? At least until some time when the rights to use that organisation again could be reclaimed? So why did the screenwriters of OP consider involving SPECTRE at all? Unless, of course, having pushed it a bit with a character in a wheelchair with a white cat at the start of FYEO, they thought they could go further in the next movie. Pity it just happened to coincide with Kevin McClory finally producing his Connery and TB comeback, NSNA - that alone would have killed the idea stone dead.



#9 Odd Jobbies

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 01:27 PM

So I'm assuming Blofeld wasn't part of this draft, since he was dropped down a chimney in battersea at the start of the previous film.

Without Blofeld it would have been a brave and ultimately necessary attempt to continue SPECTRE post Blofeld.

But it would not have been about Bond revenging Tracy since he'd already done that by killing Blofeld in FYEO.

And here's the big problem with this idea: If it were about Bond's revenge why would he need to be manipulated into hunting SPECTRE?

For that matter why would the British Secret Service need to be manipulated at all into hunting a terrorist organisation like SPECTRE? Surely that's already be part of their mandate.

I love the idea of SPECTRE in OP, but this 'blackmail' angle has this obvious drawback.

But this may well be a case of Chinese whispers, the original idea not suffering this probleml until it'd been through the rumour mill (no offence to this thread - I'm as guilty as the next man of indulging Bond rumours :)

Edited by Odd Jobbies, 05 January 2015 - 01:37 PM.


#10 coco1997

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 02:11 PM

I hope Charlie Helfenstein gives us a "Making of Octopussy" book one day. I would absolutely love to know more about this early draft featuring Blofeld. It sounds like it would have been a completely different film. Having said that, OCTOPUSSY is still one of my favorite Bond films. 



#11 Revelator

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 03:56 PM

Never heard this before. But I am not surprised since they maybe tested a few new writers (e.g. George Fraser who did the first draft), and that's when these crazy ideas usually comes up. Goldfinger's brother, Tracy's daughter, Blofelds brother etc. Of course, these days EON are so desperate that they actually have to film them.

 

Goldfinger's brother was actually one of Maibaum's crazy ideas--he'd been proposing it to the producers since 1964, when he wrote the first drafts of OHMSS. But your main idea remains valid. Fraser wrote a memoir partially dealing with his screenwriting work (The Light's On at Signpost) and I'll have to check to see if it has information on his original script for Octopussy.



#12 Dustin

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 04:51 PM

What is so intriguing in this case is the fact that McClory obviously was underway with his own production, with everything very seriously set and ready. With other films I'd suspect they may have had the faint hope inside Eon house that a solution could be found. But with McClory having Connery, the funds and a backing studio on board there can't have been even a remote chance to head him off. So letting writers use SPECTRE looks pretty pointless at the time. Perhaps the reasoning was just to tell them 'no limits' to see what they would come up with. The various scripts for TSWLM seem - as far as we can tell - to have been quite extraordinary. Could be they hoped for similar effects with OP.

#13 Odd Jobbies

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 06:17 PM

Dustin, for me that's another nail in the coffin of the rumour.

If we're true, though I wonder where the casting of James Brolin as Bond fits in the time.

Did Eon have Brolin in mind early doors and wanted SPECTRE to be their villains of choice for the new era.

Or was the shooting script already final by Brolin's casting?

Guessing it's the latter as the DVD tells us it was originally meant to be Moore until his fee became an issue- he wanted more.

#14 Dustin

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 07:32 PM

With Brolin I'm not entirely sure if a script was supposed to be tailored to him at all. Moore was still fairly accepted in the role even when FYEO had shown his age. Just going by what one heard back in 81/82 nobody seemed to seriously doubt he would be back for the next one - even if the press had started to pick up on the obvious, that Moore was simply growing out of the role on all fronts. But one more go, that was probably what most still felt he was good for.

That Moore decided to poker prior to OP must also be seen in light of McClory's project, several different figures were peddled in the headlines as Connery's supposed salary. Moore probably felt he was worth more than his previous paycheque to Eon. Especially when they had to face the return of the 'original'.

Given these facts I have a hard time seeing Brolin's screen test as anything else but a discrete signal to Moore not to keep his foot too long on the brake.

#15 Mr_Wint

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 11:47 AM

That Moore decided to poker prior to OP must also be seen in light of McClory's project, several different figures were peddled in the headlines as Connery's supposed salary. Moore probably felt he was worth more than his previous paycheque to Eon. Especially when they had to face the return of the 'original'.

Moore also once said that he was approached for NSNA, and implied that this was the reason why he asked for a higher salary to do OP.

#16 Dustin

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 12:27 PM

That Moore decided to poker prior to OP must also be seen in light of McClory's project, several different figures were peddled in the headlines as Connery's supposed salary. Moore probably felt he was worth more than his previous paycheque to Eon. Especially when they had to face the return of the 'original'.

Moore also once said that he was approached for NSNA, and implied that this was the reason why he asked for a higher salary to do OP.

Frankly, I have difficulty believing this. I don't say it didn't happen, it just beggars belief when you look at McClory's property. He just had the rights to do a remake of a film that was at that time close to 20 years old, a story that was by then already fodder for tv series and cheaper film productions. In terms of actual worth McClory's property had increasingly diminishing values. The one single asset on his side nobody else had was Connery. The possibility of having him back in the role was imperative for Paramount's backing of the WARHEAD project and was what made Schwartzman come on board later on. I simply don't believe McClory willingly gave up this trump card for Moore instead.

#17 Pierceuhhh

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 09:06 PM

I don't have my copy with me so I may have some details wrong, but the Taschen james Bond Archives book explains it:

SPECTRE attacks MI6 and kills M. Bond is framed as an inside man and goes on the run, and Moneypenny is sacked. SPECTRE then replace M with their own man, so they can run the secret service or something. Octopussy runs a spy outfit of her own that's at war with SPECTRE, and Bond teams up with her and an Afghan freedom fighter called Kamal Khan. The villains are Blofeld and the head of his SPECTRE army, Smythe. The pre-titles was in the Netherlands.

Kamal Khan's name later turned up as the villain's, the character of Kamal Khan later turned up in TLD as Kamran Shah, and it looks like literally the entire rest of the plot was recycled for BOND 24!

The Taschen book actually relates a lot of original plot ideas that I've never head of before, and no sources are cited! But it's fun! Apparently TOMORROW NEVER DIES was originally set in Transylvania... the land of vampires and werewolves...


Edited by Pierceuhhh, 06 January 2015 - 09:07 PM.


#18 Odd Jobbies

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 11:01 PM

I don't have my copy with me so I may have some details wrong, but the Taschen james Bond Archives book explains it:

SPECTRE attacks MI6 and kills M. Bond is framed as an inside man and goes on the run, and Moneypenny is sacked. SPECTRE then replace M with their own man, so they can run the secret service or something. Octopussy runs a spy outfit of her own that's at war with SPECTRE, and Bond teams up with her and an Afghan freedom fighter called Kamal Khan. The villains are Blofeld and the head of his SPECTRE army, Smythe. The pre-titles was in the Netherlands.

Kamal Khan's name later turned up as the villain's, the character of Kamal Khan later turned up in TLD as Kamran Shah, and it looks like literally the entire rest of the plot was recycled for BOND 24!

The Taschen book actually relates a lot of original plot ideas that I've never head of before, and no sources are cited! But it's fun! Apparently TOMORROW NEVER DIES was originally set in Transylvania... the land of vampires and werewolves...

Very bold idea's there - glad they didn't waste them on that slightly dodgy era in production (a hackneyed crew and ageing star - no offence to them all).

 

TND in Transilvania....!  We were robbed! that sounds bloody fantastic.



#19 Vauxhall

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Posted 07 January 2015 - 01:14 AM

I don't have my copy with me so I may have some details wrong, but the Taschen james Bond Archives book explains it:

SPECTRE attacks MI6 and kills M. Bond is framed as an inside man and goes on the run, and Moneypenny is sacked. SPECTRE then replace M with their own man, so they can run the secret service or something. Octopussy runs a spy outfit of her own that's at war with SPECTRE, and Bond teams up with her and an Afghan freedom fighter called Kamal Khan. The villains are Blofeld and the head of his SPECTRE army, Smythe. The pre-titles was in the Netherlands.

Kamal Khan's name later turned up as the villain's, the character of Kamal Khan later turned up in TLD as Kamran Shah, and it looks like literally the entire rest of the plot was recycled for BOND 24!

The Taschen book actually relates a lot of original plot ideas that I've never head of before, and no sources are cited! But it's fun! Apparently TOMORROW NEVER DIES was originally set in Transylvania... the land of vampires and werewolves...

 

Wow, interesting details. All new to me. 



#20 Revelator

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 08:57 PM

I don't have my copy with me so I may have some details wrong, but the Taschen james Bond Archives book explains it:

SPECTRE attacks MI6 and kills M. Bond is framed as an inside man and goes on the run, and Moneypenny is sacked. SPECTRE then replace M with their own man, so they can run the secret service or something. Octopussy runs a spy outfit of her own that's at war with SPECTRE, and Bond teams up with her and an Afghan freedom fighter called Kamal Khan. The villains are Blofeld and the head of his SPECTRE army, Smythe. The pre-titles was in the Netherlands.

Kamal Khan's name later turned up as the villain's, the character of Kamal Khan later turned up in TLD as Kamran Shah, and it looks like literally the entire rest of the plot was recycled for BOND 24!

The Taschen book actually relates a lot of original plot ideas that I've never head of before, and no sources are cited! But it's fun! Apparently TOMORROW NEVER DIES was originally set in Transylvania... the land of vampires and werewolves...

 

Fascinating stuff--thank you for sharing it. I'll have to save up to buy that Taschen book! As Odd Jobbies commented, that's a very bold scenario. Like the Spectre version of TSWLM, it seems to have been too bold for Broccoli. I also wonder how they would have filmed the death of M, considering that Bernard Lee was already dead.



#21 Odd Jobbies

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 11:28 PM

I also wonder how they would have filmed the death of M, considering that Bernard Lee was already dead.

 

Perhaps they'd have borrowed from the opening of Fleming's TMWTGG - it's a great piece of writing.



#22 glidrose

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Posted 09 January 2015 - 12:42 AM

I don't have my copy with me so I may have some details wrong, but the Taschen james Bond Archives book explains it:

SPECTRE attacks MI6 and kills M. Bond is framed as an inside man and goes on the run, and Moneypenny is sacked. SPECTRE then replace M with their own man, so they can run the secret service or something. Octopussy runs a spy outfit of her own that's at war with SPECTRE, and Bond teams up with her and an Afghan freedom fighter called Kamal Khan. The villains are Blofeld and the head of his SPECTRE army, Smythe. The pre-titles was in the Netherlands.

Kamal Khan's name later turned up as the villain's, the character of Kamal Khan later turned up in TLD as Kamran Shah, and it looks like literally the entire rest of the plot was recycled for BOND 24!

 

Our own Dustin had some perceptive comments a while back on why this scenario would not have worked in a Roger Moore Bond film.

And I also don't believe for a second that McClory or anybody else ever asked Moore to play Bond in NSNA.

#23 Odd Jobbies

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Posted 09 January 2015 - 10:52 AM

And I also don't believe for a second that McClory or anybody else ever asked Moore to play Bond in NSNA.

 

Why not? Eon was McClory's competition.

 

Making an offer to Moore may have been a long shot, but if that was the reason Moore asked Eon for a pay bump, then it would've been 'mission-succesful', causing pre-production wrangling for Eon; probably a shooting delay, a new Bond casting, doubtless re-writes or at least tweaks for the new, much younger Bond. Then back stepping on all of that when Moore finally agrees at the 11th hour.

 

Perhaps McCory never really wanted Moore, since Connery was a publicity dream-come-true for him. But an offer to Moore would certainly have thrown the cat among the pigeons in the Eon camp and had a detrimental effect upon OP - how detrimental is anyone's guess, but i'd imagine McClory would've been pleased with it.



#24 Dustin

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Posted 09 January 2015 - 05:21 PM

I just reread the OP chapter in the James-Bond-Archives tome. Actually, I already read the stuff about OP and Blofeld's scheme to install his own agent at the top of SIS, I had completely forgotten about it.

As the article goes it was early days, a stage where, according to John Glen, they largely pushed around ideas, to and fro until another writer is hired to add something more. Since the guys involved in the treatment at that stage were Maibaum and Wilson they both certainly knew the situation around McClory and SPECTRE.

Interesting insofar perhaps: while McClory claimed to have exclusive rights to SPECTRE and threatened to hold TSWLM's production with another legal battle it seems it never really came to a showdown about the matter in front of a court. Sellers' book mentions McClory came up with allegations Eon had illegally used SPECTRE, but it seems this fact only just occurred to him in '76. Broccoli didn't dare at the time calling McClory's game but the OP chapter in James-Bond-Archives quotes Broccoli with saying:

'We sought an injunction against them [the NSNA production], claiming that they had milked ideas from previous Bonds, and, by remaking Thunderball, would be using more of our material than their own. We lost, not because of the weakness of our claim, but because it was held that they were so far advanced on the production that it would be unfair to pull the switch...'

So perhaps the general feeling at Eon house at that time had been that they had good chances to win on all accounts, including the use of Blofeld and SPECTRE. The only other explanation in my view would be that the first work on the treatment stood under the 'no-holds-barred' motto.

As for Moore being asked to appear in NSNA, no, I absolutely don't see that. Yes, it would have been a move to scare Eon, no doubt about it. But please do consider the situation at the time. Connery and Moore were friends, not close friends perhaps but surely on good enough terms to frequently dine together and exchange stories about their work. Had McClory asked Moore, even just for fun, you can practically bet on it Connery would have heard about it the next day. And what would have been Connery's reaction? And that of the backing studio?

I really just don't see it. I think it is possible McClory may have called Moore sometime after '87 to maybe try the same stunt a second time. There were rumours of him contacting Dalton and/or Brosnan, so who knows? But right at the time when he was so close to see his dream come true? I seriously doubt it. At the time NSNA's main appeal wasn't NSNA, it was Connery's return to the role. In contrast, what would have been NSNA's allure with Moore as 007? Who was successful in the role but hardly anything to write home about in yet another remake of a Connery Bond? I doubt the studio would have played ball under that premise.

#25 Mr_Wint

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Posted 09 January 2015 - 07:14 PM

Moore claimed that he was asked about NSNA.

Go to 1:50.



I don't think Moore is the kind of person who would lie about this... but then again, he would if he could turn it into a joke at the end. So we'll never know.

#26 Dustin

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Posted 09 January 2015 - 07:33 PM

Yes, he says Schwarzman asked him. Though my impression here is not it was a serious offer, is it? Interestingly, Schwarzman by that time was at the helm of the project, with McClory having taken the backseat. But is it realistically conceivable? I still have doubts, it sounds much like all the people who supposedly got offered the 007 part over the years by Saltzman and Broccoli.

#27 Guy Haines

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Posted 09 January 2015 - 09:15 PM

I've just consulted that weighty tome - in more ways than one! - published by Taschen. One other point about the initial screen treatment where M is assassinated - he is replaced by a character named "Villiers" who is the Chief of Staff. The previous film FYEO features the actor James Villiers, who played the C of S. Since its happened before that the scripts sometimes featured the actor's name rather than a character's did they have James Villiers in mind to play SPECTRE's man in waiting to replace M? Or was it just a character name with no actor cast?

 

Either way it seems the idea of a bad guy running MI6 wasn't just one that fans had considered. It's interesting also that Blofeld's number two in this story is Smythe - if anything like the character in the story Octopussy a corrupt former British officer with some similarities to Bond in his younger days. I wonder if the storyline would have tried to create some kind of link between Smythe and Bond via a certain chap named Oberhauser? Just a (topical!) thought. ;)



#28 glidrose

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 08:08 PM

Yes, he says Schwarzman asked him. Though my impression here is not it was a serious offer, is it? Interestingly, Schwarzman by that time was at the helm of the project, with McClory having taken the backseat. But is it realistically conceivable? I still have doubts, it sounds much like all the people who supposedly got offered the 007 part over the years by Saltzman and Broccoli.


Here's a theory, though it stretches chronology quite a bit. Schwartzman had a two film deal with McClory. What if Schwartzman knew that Connery would not do a second film so he approaches Roger Moore to do the second film.

Failing that, Odd Jobbies' throw the cat among the pigeons theory makes some sense.

#29 Dustin

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 09:28 PM

It could be, though I myself still think it wasn't a serious offer - and probably also not understood by Moore as such. And if the theory of stirring up the opposition is to be believed Connery must have been in the picture beforehand or he would have jumped ship if anybody behind his back tried brokering deals. This whole McClory business involved Connery more than any other Bond film. He was part of the scriptwriting effort for WARHEAD, a hugely different story from TB that actually had numerous similarities with TSWLM, (according to Sellers) that was then delayed for years and finally scrapped altogether. For NSNA Connery demanded not just $3m but also script, director and cast approval and Connery himself tried to get Terence Young or Richard Donner to direct. For legal reasons the project was stuck with a close remake and could not use many of the new ideas they had written for WARHEAD. So in effect, whatever else one may think of NSNA, it pretty much was Connery. And without him no film, period. Perhaps Moore got offered a cameo but since everybody in the industry considered Moore and Broccoli to be on friendly terms it was unlikely he'd accept. Rumour has it Llewelyn and Maxwell were also asked but declined. Can't say whether it's true.

#30 FlemingBond

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 04:24 PM

i never heard of SPECTRE possibly being in Octopussy before. Seems like they would have left that behind after the trouble with TSWLM and killing Blofeld (unnamed) in FYEO