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Are we overdue for an Octopussy?


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#31 AMC Hornet

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 10:04 PM

How about we split the difference and have another TSWLM?



#32 Guy Haines

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 11:27 PM

Or another YOLT? It would be interesting to see how Daniel Craig's Bond would cope with a serious plan to put the entire world in peril headed by an arch-villain or villainous organisation with seemingly unlimited resources and a central base just begging to be blown to bits in the final reel.



#33 AMC Hornet

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 12:36 AM

I'd feel sorry for the villain - he'd be in for such a beatin'.



#34 freemo

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 12:52 AM

I think "dark" vs "light", or "serious and hard edged" vs. "fun romp" is a rather simplistic way of thinking of it. So too is some sort of "blend" between the two (I prefer absolutes over compromises anyway). There are lots of different ways a Bond film can be done, lots of different directions. It's not a one-axis line, or even a two-axis plot, but a three dimensional plane of styles and tones and possibilites (does "more humour" mean the tarzan yell or does it mean "someone probably lost a dog?, etc). Think DR. NO's death dripped black humour. Or the charming way FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE treats it's plot like an audacious challenge, a game. Or GOLDFINGER cheeky but not stupid self-send up style. Or THUNDERBALL uber confident swaqgger of awesomeness. Or the eerie, twisted, fever dream vibe of YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE. Etc, etc.

 

I don't think they think in terms of making "another THUNDERBALL" or "another FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE" or "another THE SPY WHO LOVED ME" or "another OCTOPUSSY" anymore. Why make another OCTOPUSSY when you can make the first QUANTUM OF SOLACE? Or the first SKYFALL? Or the first CASINO ROYALE (except for the other CASINO ROYALE)? Seems to be the current approach. Seems to be working okay, too.

 

Anyway, the end of SKYFALL seemed to the suggest that the series can go absolutely anywhere next. Look foward to seeing what they come up with. I think we'll be suprised.



#35 Trevelyan 006

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 07:40 AM

I think "dark" vs "light", or "serious and hard edged" vs. "fun romp" is a rather simplistic way of thinking of it. So too is some sort of "blend" between the two (I prefer absolutes over compromises anyway). There are lots of different ways a Bond film can be done, lots of different directions. It's not a one-axis line, or even a two-axis plot, but a three dimensional plane of styles and tones and possibilites (does "more humour" mean the tarzan yell or does it mean "someone probably lost a dog?, etc). Think DR. NO's death dripped black humour. Or the charming way FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE treats it's plot like an audacious challenge, a game. Or GOLDFINGER cheeky but not stupid self-send up style. Or THUNDERBALL uber confident swaqgger of awesomeness. Or the eerie, twisted, fever dream vibe of YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE. Etc, etc.

 

I don't think they think in terms of making "another THUNDERBALL" or "another FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE" or "another THE SPY WHO LOVED ME" or "another OCTOPUSSY" anymore. Why make another OCTOPUSSY when you can make the first QUANTUM OF SOLACE? Or the first SKYFALL? Or the first CASINO ROYALE (except for the other CASINO ROYALE)? Seems to be the current approach. Seems to be working okay, too.

 

Anyway, the end of SKYFALL seemed to the suggest that the series can go absolutely anywhere next. Look foward to seeing what they come up with. I think we'll be suprised.

 

All fair points! I just feel as though the series is ready for a change of pace, especially as the Craig era matures. At this point, it is widely understood that Craig is a tough, gritty, confident Bond. Emotional layers have also been explored masterfully. I'd like a new layer of Craig to be exposed, one that Craig's Bond has only been able to flirt with (and he has surely flirted, no doubt). That being, wit/humor. 

 

Thus far, Craig-Bond hasn't had too much to be witty about. He lost a majorly deep love connection, injured/mended a friendship, lost a mentor/boss, had to cut his teeth with a new man at the helm, being tortured near death, even being hunted by the C.I.A. It would've have made sense to have Craig's Bond cracking jokes every other scene! I don't knock the producers, directors, writers, or actors for making the right calls, as far as decisions like that go. With all the deadly serious, emotionally trying, turbulent times behind him (for the moment), why shouldn't a film paced and stylized similar to Octopussy return to break up the tone of the series? I personally believe a breath of fresh air would not only be blown into the series but Craig's Bond for that matter!

 

AND NO, A RETURN OF THE TARZAN YELL WOULD NOT BE WELCOMED, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.  :P 



#36 glidrose

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 08:50 PM

AND NO, A RETURN OF THE TARZAN YELL WOULD NOT BE WELCOMED, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.  :P


Ah, c'mon. Think how amazing it would be in the Craig era-

-getting his bollocks whipped in CR
-cradling dead Vesper
-getting shot off the train in SF
-cradling dead M

The possibilities are endless!

And am I the only person here who absolutely hates the font Trevelyan 006 keeps inflicting on us?

#37 plankattack

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 09:23 PM

And am I the only person here who absolutely hates the font Trevelyan 006 keeps inflicting on us?


Oh I don't know, I quite enjoy T-006 bringing in a little variety!

On topic, I'm still not sure we've all agreed on what "OP-Bond" represents. Everyone says that don't want Tarzan yells - that's OP. People say that want a romp - OP is about nuclear bombs blowing up West Germany! Okay, that's unfair, but what I mean is, what is a "romp?" Are we looking for a film that's self-aware, tongue firmly in cheek - which is most definitely OP and MR?

People say that want wit. But I challenge anyone to say that there has not been wit in Craig's tenure. Has it been "I've heard the price of eggs was going up"? No, but it has been "I didn't know he smoked" in QoS, or "She likes to think so." Has it been goat's eye curry? No, but it has been parking cars in CR.

People say that want Bond to have more fun. Okay, I get that and DC's Bond has been through the ringer. But personally I think DC's Bond's more fun is like the golf match in GF (though to be fair, both the auction and the backgammon games in OP are variants of that), or even doing "Hilary Bray". My point is, I think we really need to decide what it is about OP that we want, and why it, and not, GF or DAF, is the example we're holding up.

But fake horses tails and crocodile subs? No, I don't buy it, not for this particular era.

#38 AMC Hornet

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 01:18 AM

"What were you expecting, an exploding pen? We don't go in for that sort of thing anymore."

 

Indeed, especially when every phone is a camera, video recorder, two-way TV and text transmitter, GPS locator, etc etc...

 

'Gee whiz' technology has already outstripped Q branch's ability to keep ahead of it. Good thing EON has kept the Bond/Q byplay, anyway - however modified.



#39 Guy Haines

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 07:59 AM

"A gun, and a radio. Not exactly Christmas." "What were you expecting, an exploding pen? We don't go in for that sort of thing anymore."

 

Which was followed up later on by Bond "The latest thing from Q branch. It's called a radio."

 

A nice subtle send up of the whole "Q" branch business, especially when Silva was previously deriding his former colleagues there as "those fools" - yet this hi-tech genius is caught by Q's latest thing for Bond. (Or so we're led to believe!)

 

SF didn't lack humour, and now Bond is "out of the wringer" emotionally, but as plankattack points out, Craig's Bond is more suited to the subtle, dry - even graveyard - humour of the early films. (Speaking of graves, had Craig been around to play Bond in 1962 I could well imagine him delivering this line after the hearse goes over the cliff - "I think they were on their way to a funeral". Or, as the car pulls up at Government House with a dead chauffeur in the back seat - "Sergeant, make sure he doesn't get away.")

 

I've mentioned before that the biggest laugh in CR, at least with the audience I was with, came when Bond invited Le Chiffre to scratch a certain body part. This in probably the most harrowing torture scene in any Bond film. Another came when Bond, asked if he wanted his Vodka Martini shaken or stirred said "Do I look like I give a damn?". It was so unexpected, after decades of "Shaken, not stirred". Craig can do humour, but as with Connery, it involves the audience laughing with Bond rather than at him. So, if we are to have an OP style movie in future, that's the kind of humour would work best, imho.



#40 Odd Jobbies

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 08:11 AM

Octopussy is a huge compromise that emphasised the comedy because Moore was too old to carry off the action without resorting to levity. It hadn't reached the doldrums of AVTAK, but but was IMO a miscue. Had they stuck with Brolin in the role i imagine the tone wouldn't have had to turn so frequently into farce.


Edited by Odd Jobbies, 09 August 2014 - 08:11 AM.


#41 Grard Bond

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 11:20 AM

Moore too old for the action?

First of all the movie is full of action and second all the actionstuff was done by stuntmen anyway, so I don't think it realy mattered how old he was and I think he didn't look that old in 1983.

"A view to a kill" is another story....


Edited by Grard Bond, 09 August 2014 - 11:23 AM.


#42 Odd Jobbies

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 12:40 PM

Moore too old for the action?

First of all the movie is full of action and second all the actionstuff was done by stuntmen anyway, so I don't think it realy mattered how old he was and I think he didn't look that old in 1983.

"A view to a kill" is another story....

Of course it's all a little subjective and this is just my opinion. At the time i was 12 and Octopussy really couldn't have been any better - made my dad take me to see it twice (although i do remember thinking the song was naff).

 

Bond had already turned into light comedy with TSWLM and then farce with MR. It had left the drama and thriller genres way back (with the exception of FYEO). The canny business sense of Eon allowed the strengths of the actor to inform the tone, thus zero realism and the gags cranked up to 11.

 

Buy, sadly, i'm no longer 12 and need a little more meat on the bone and am grateful for the tone to have returned, with such aplomb, to the bigger than life action-thillers of the 60s, having been allowed to move in that direction by snagging Craig.

 

I have much love for the Moore movies and respect for Moore's screen presence and comic timing, but i'm not about to pretend that Octopussy is a convincing action movie. The action is ambitious and exciting, but too often in long shot with a stunt double intercut with an obviously aged Moore jumping around on-set. They made a great action-farce, with a few nods to intrigue and drama, but always undermined by Tarzan swinging, Tigers sitting and shooting knobs off of banisters.

 

With Brolin originally cast i'm betting the original shooting script had none of this, but having lured their guaranteed box office draw back at the eleventh hour they adjusted it to tone down the action he was too old to pull off and replaced it with 'comic' moments.

 

It's horses for courses - back then i loved the laughs, now i want to think a little more (and i don't mean "Oh look, that's not Bond, that's a stuntman in a wig).


Edited by Odd Jobbies, 09 August 2014 - 12:46 PM.


#43 Iceskater101

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 02:08 PM

Actually could we have a Bond film like Man with the Golden Gun? I mean the location was stunning, the villain had a secret lair and he is pretty much equal to Bond in a lot of aspects (I guess this is kind of like Silva in Skyfall) but I mean with regards to the fun adventure, the two gorgeous girls and the pretty location.



#44 AMC Hornet

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 04:45 PM

Don't anybody jump on Iceskater for suggesting this. I too would like to see something as colourful and fun as TMWTGG - something that concentrates on character more than spectacle, without dwelling too much on emotional trauma.

 

Sort of like the first half of Skyfall, only let Bond enjoy himself a little more.



#45 Grard Bond

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 04:48 PM

Please no! Golden Gun is one of the worse Bondmovies with a terrible screenplay.

 

I mean:

why is Bond attacked by the heavies in the dressingroom....? Who the heck are they anyway?

Why is Bond left by Hip after the Kung Fu fight scene and is he driving away without Bond (because we have another actionscene coming...)?

Why wants Pepper a test drive with a showroomcar, when he is in Bangkok? Yeah! One realy wants to buy a new car when one is on holiday in the Far East...

Let's get the final confrontation, between the two most dangerous gunmen in the world, take place in a childish environment... a funhouse for example.. that realy does it!

etc. etc....

 

Please not another Golden Gun...



#46 Odd Jobbies

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 07:06 PM

...I too would like to see something as colourful and fun as TMWTGG - something that concentrates on character more than spectacle...

Is it me, or is that a contradiction?

 

I'm afraid i'm with Grard here. TMWTGG is a pretty awful screenplay. But it is also one of the most beautiful Bonds in terms of colourful locations and putting that on the screen, so i see Ice Skaters point too.

 

Would be lovely to have a Bond as picturesque as TMWTGG, so long as it concentrates on character just as much  as the spectacle.



#47 Grard Bond

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 07:59 PM

Yes, I agree. The locations and the entire feeling (Is this good English?) of the movie are exellent. If they combine this with a good screenplay fitting Craig's personality it can be great.


Edited by Grard Bond, 09 August 2014 - 08:00 PM.


#48 Iceskater101

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 02:54 AM

Don't anybody jump on Iceskater for suggesting this. I too would like to see something as colourful and fun as TMWTGG - something that concentrates on character more than spectacle, without dwelling too much on emotional trauma.

 

Sort of like the first half of Skyfall, only let Bond enjoy himself a little more.

 

Thank you! :P

 

Please no! Golden Gun is one of the worse Bondmovies with a terrible screenplay.

 

I mean:

why is Bond attacked by the heavies in the dressingroom....? Who the heck are they anyway?

Why is Bond left by Hip after the Kung Fu fight scene and is he driving away without Bond (because we have another actionscene coming...)?

Why wants Pepper a test drive with a showroomcar, when he is in Bangkok? Yeah! One realy wants to buy a new car when one is on holiday in the Far East...

Let's get the final confrontation, between the two most dangerous gunmen in the world, take place in a childish environment... a funhouse for example.. that realy does it!

etc. etc....

 

Please not another Golden Gun...

 

Bond is attacked in the dressing room, I am assuming because they work for Scaramanga? I mean he is looking for the golden bullet. Okay I love the fun house! I actually think that's pretty cool and one of my favorite sequences from Man with the Golden Gun. I think Scaramanga wants to tease the people he kills. He knows how everything works and he wants to challenge them and then take them out in the end. That's why the fun house exists. Plus it gives Nick Nack a fun way to challenge the opponents and if they ever did kill Scaramanga, he would get everything so it's a win win for him.

 

I disagree with your statement :P



#49 AMC Hornet

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 03:56 AM

When I stepped up and asked others not to jump on Iceskater I didn't mean ...

 

I always figured the bald goon in Beirut was either a jealous suitor, or the club owner and a jealous suitor. I never assumed he had any connection to Mr. S. (I could also him as playing Hendricks, had the original novel ever been faithfully adapted).

 

Although it was pointless to show up and rescue Bond from the Kung Fu school, then drive off and abandon him, I can see Bond not holding it against Hip that he got his nieces out of danger (after putting them in harm's way in the first place - oh, never mind...)

 

Although I think J.W. outstayed his welcome after the klong chase, I will say this in defence of his reappearance: J.W., the quintessential ugly American, sees something familiar in this pointy-headed country: American Motors. Perhaps he was interested in trying out one of the new models, with an eye to recommending them to the Lou-isiana State Po-lice, to replace all the Chevys he'd been responsible for demolishing the year before.

 

As for the fun house, it was just psychedelic fun, and another example of the recursion that permeates the Bonds of the early 70s (LALD was loaded with it too - the jazz funerals, the voodoo sacrifices, etc.).

 

Having lived in Thailand when I was a kid, I enjoy any movie that indulges in a little familiar cultural scenery. I could have used more of Rio in MR as well.

 

Granted, the Solex subplot seems too obviously grafted on, but that's not anything that a couple of additional lines of dialogue couldn't have explained (and probably did, in an earlier rough cut). Blowing up the Island was probably just to make up for not having had a major blow-up since YOLT.

 

Anyway, TMWTGG ticked all my boxes when I was 15, and time hasn't turned me against it. If no one else likes it, fine - I'm sure Iceskater and I will be happy keeping it for ourselves.



#50 Trevelyan 006

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 04:23 AM

 

AND NO, A RETURN OF THE TARZAN YELL WOULD NOT BE WELCOMED, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.  :P


Ah, c'mon. Think how amazing it would be in the Craig era-

-getting his bollocks whipped in CR
-cradling dead Vesper
-getting shot off the train in SF
-cradling dead M

The possibilities are endless!

And am I the only person here who absolutely hates the font Trevelyan 006 keeps inflicting on us?

 

 

Better yet, it could be played over the slow death of my pride at the cruel hands of glidrose!


Edited by Trevelyan 006, 10 August 2014 - 04:30 AM.


#51 Guy Haines

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 08:01 AM

Regarding the roughing up of Bond in the night club dressing room in Beirut - I never thought the bald bloke and his goon squad had anything to do with Scaramanga, and just assumed they were people Bond had crossed on a previous assignment in Lebanon who now saw, quite out of the blue, a chance to get their own back. Scaramanga would have no reason to think that Bond was after him - he didn't send the golden bullet to MI6, rather it was his mistress, Andrea.

 

M sums up Bond's predicament in the mission briefing quite well - "Jealous husbands, outraged chefs, humiliated tailors. The list is endless!" Indeed, a lot of people were out there who wanted Bond dead or incapacitated and in Beirut he ran into yet another bunch of them.



#52 Grard Bond

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 10:38 AM

But that's my point of the Golden Gun screenplay: it's too lazy.

Thinking Bond has so many enemies he can be attacked anytime, everywhere, so that means in every Bondmovie you can put in a couple of actionscene's and chases with have nothing to do with the story at all, but.. hey.. everyone wants to kill Bond so it doesn't matter who they are and why they attack Bond.... Yeah! That is realy great writting!

 

And ofcourse those guys have nothing to do with Scaramanga. At that point he even doesn't know that Bond is looking for him.

They even have nothing to do with the rest of the story.


Edited by Grard Bond, 10 August 2014 - 10:39 AM.


#53 AMC Hornet

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 04:39 PM

Could be worse - Bond could be randomly attacked by a giant chicken every other episode...

 

Anyway, I always figured Baldy was watching over Saida, and was prepared to pummel anyone who dared enter her dressing room.



#54 Grard Bond

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 06:02 PM

Before Bond is going to her dressingroom and only is sitting at his table, they already are watching him and why -if they are working for her or at least for the boss of the establishment- is she not telling them that it is alright that Bond is in her dressingroom and that they must stop attacking him? It doesn't matter how you look at this scene, it remains stupid and not logical.


Edited by Grard Bond, 10 August 2014 - 06:02 PM.


#55 AMC Hornet

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 06:55 PM

Baldy was watching Saida and didn't like the way she was flirting with Bond while she danced. As far as Baldy was concerned, it wasn't alright for anyone to visit her backstage (perhaps he'd been her lord and protector since '69?).

 

Anyway, I thought this thread was supposed to be about having another Octopussy styled film some time in the future. I think we've already established that we don't want anything too reminiscent of TMWTGG insofar as narrative and plot structure goes. I'm all for enjoying the background scenery and culture, though - sometimes the globe hopping can be too dizzying.



#56 glidrose

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 08:46 PM

I agree with AMC about baldy's motivations. But Grard Bond is right. It is lazy storytelling. It doesn't tie in with the plot.

 

Sorry, AMC, but the giant chicken is booked for the next several seasons of "Family Guy".



#57 Iceskater101

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 11:48 PM

How about we split the difference and have another TSWLM?

 

 

Yes! I agree with this statement. 



#58 Guy Haines

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 07:28 AM

I still think we're overdue another Thunderball or OHMSS in terms of plot - villain(s) holding the civilised world to ransom demanding money, power and, let's not forget, a free pardon for their crimes (After all, what's the point in going to all this trouble, getting the world powers to pay up and look as happy as they can about it, but still being on the world's wanted list?). We haven't had a film like this since 1983 with Never Say Never Again or, if one counts only the official films, since the mid to late 1960s.

 

Alternatively we may be overdue another You Only Live Twice or The Spy Who Loved Me in terms of size and scope, rather than plot holes or humour. By this I don't necessarily mean a return to a super-villain sitting there stroking cats or throwing people to the piranhas or the sharks. I do mean a villain or organisation with power and manpower on show once Bond gets to him or her. A new super-villain could have a different trademark or habits besides those I've just mentioned.

 

And since Bond is only as good as his adversaries are bad, imho, we could perhaps do with a contemporary version of a Goldfinger, Largo or Blofeld as the main opponent. We've had two great villains recently in Le Chiffre and Silva, but their scope has been limited to in one case saving his own hide and the other personal revenge. How about Craig facing a villain with a "Grand Slam" of a project, someone who is able to say, to quote Goldfinger "I have devoted fifteen years of my life to this" - only to have 007 demolish it all in days!



#59 Grard Bond

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 08:53 AM

That would be exellent!

And they still have Quantum, which from we saw only a glimps, not the whole organisation. It's not ended very satisfactory with QoS.

It could be a huge endconfrontation and maybe Quantum is SPECTRE?!



#60 Guy Haines

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 03:36 PM

I'm not sure about the organisation - I've said on these forums that I'd like SPECTRE to return, or Quantum to turn into it, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if we've seen the last of both.

 

But at the moment the type of villain I'd like to see would be a character like Emilio Largo, or Blofeld as portrayed in the film OHMSS - a match for Bond physically, probably superior intellectually (Or so he thinks.) but like Bond a draw with the ladies (Again, so he thinks.) without any of the "homo-erotic" stuff or the need to prove he's better than Bond, or for that matter a desire for revenge on him.

 

Plus as mentioned earlier, a plan that's been simmering for years and is about to boil.

 

In short, a rival for Bond and a threat for the rest of us.