Jump to content


This is a read only archive of the old forums
The new CBn forums are located at https://quarterdeck.commanderbond.net/

 
Photo

ChickenStu on Fleming's originals.


54 replies to this topic

#1 ChickenStu

ChickenStu

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 608 posts
  • Location:South East

Posted 03 October 2013 - 03:17 PM

As a fan of the movie series, I've always felt guilty that I'd never read all of Fleming's books. I had read You Only Live Twice on holiday many years ago, and read Casino Royale prior to the movie coming out, and had started Live And Let Die but never finished.

 

Well, at the grand old age of 35, I have decided to rectify that situation. I have purchased brand new copies of Casino Royale, Live And Let Die, Moonraker and Diamonds Are Forever. I have copies of From Russia With Love, Goldfinger and Dr. No in the post. 

 

Over the last 24 hours I have re-read Casino Royale (I chose to re-read it because thanks to a problem with alcoholism, I couldn't remember anything from my previous read of it) and have finally read Live And Let Die in full.

 

And I am VERY impressed! The casual misogyny of the first book (ie, constant use of the word "bitch") is a little off putting, but the baccarat scenes in the middle of the book are what make this a masterpiece in my opinion. Also, the cold, downbeat ending is wonderfully played and I can see how it had readers screaming out for more when first published. 

 

I also greatly enjoyed the second book. However, whereas the first book suffered from a misogynistic streak.. I'd say this one suffers from... I wouldn't call it "racism" but more of a racial ignorance on Fleming's part. The constant use of the "N" word (especially in one of the chapter titles) did kind of hit me like a ton of bricks. 

 

But generally speaking, these are pretty impressive spy thrillers and I am hooked. I shall begin reading the third book in earnest and if you'll indulge me - will continue to use this thread to share my thoughts on them with you! 



#2 Revelator

Revelator

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 572 posts
  • Location:San Francisco

Posted 03 October 2013 - 07:21 PM

Welcome to the world of Fleming! I'm glad you're enjoying it so far, and we'll look forward to your thoughts on the later books. I always recommend that first time readers try to forget the movie versions, since they might otherwise complain about the books' comparative lack of action, but it looks like you've avoided that pitfall.

 

The misogyny of CR is, I think, intentionally off-putting. Fleming presents Bond as a very cold, harsh, hard-edged figure who initially has little non-sexual use for women. Falling in love with Vesper threatens to make him become more human, but with the final line in the book Bond dramatically reverses course.

LALD is definitely problematic in racial matters. Keep in mind that the N-word was much slower to become taboo in Britain (it was even used in an episode of Fawlty Towers).

 

As you might already know, the quality of the books dips slightly until Diamonds Are Forever, and then reaches a peak with From Russia With Love. They become bigger in scale afterwards and somewhat more self-parodic, as in the case of Goldfinger. Fleming also engages in some radical experiments in The Spy Who Loved Me and the short stories in For Your Eyes Only. The last few books in the series have definite feel of melancholy, caused by Fleming's ill-health and depression.



#3 ChickenStu

ChickenStu

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 608 posts
  • Location:South East

Posted 04 October 2013 - 01:10 PM

Thank you for the kind response Revelator! Since I last posted here I read Moonraker and you're right about the dip. I wouldn't say its a bad book, but the ending was a bit predictable. Drax is a cool bad guy though! It was a bit more of an effort to read than the first two I must say. Still, I remain undeterred and will continue with my odyssey of Fleming! 

 

That word was used in Fawlty Towers? REALLY?!? That's pretty shocking. I'd have thought even in the 70s that wouldn't have been a word one expected to hear in polite conversation.Especially in a family comedy! Every time I came across it in Live And Let Die it hit me like a ton of bricks. Especially the constant use of "negro" and "Negress" as descriptive terms. OK, they aren't essentially "racist" words - but it certainly represents a certain "attitude". I wouldn't call Fleming a racist, I never met the man and never will, so I don't know - but still, use of these kind of nomenclatures does make one wonder what the actual measure of the man was. Anyway, I'll leave that one there. For all I know Fleming's relatives may visit this forum and I've no wish to offend them. 



#4 Major Tallon

Major Tallon

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 2107 posts
  • Location:Mid-USA

Posted 04 October 2013 - 05:26 PM

In the era in which Fleming wrote, the term "Negro" was widely used word to describe blacks, at least in the U.S., and had no offensive aspect whatever (though it was capitalized in American print media and wasn't in British texts of LALD).  It was regularly used in mainstream media, and you can find the word in all sorts of academic writings, respectable periodicals, official documents, and in U.S. Supreme Court decisions.  In fact, Martin Luther King used the word in his "I have a dream" speech.  It was the word "black" that was considered insulting, not gaining acceptability until the late 60's.  I never heard "Negress" used by anyone, but that was most likely simply a matter of U.S. culture.  There's plenty to criticize in the racial attitudes found in LALD, but my view is that Fleming gets a pass on his use of this term. 



#5 Revelator

Revelator

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 572 posts
  • Location:San Francisco

Posted 04 October 2013 - 05:46 PM

The ending for Moonraker is also notable for being the only time in the series Bond is rejected by the heroine. Diamonds Are Forever will likely disappoint you, but try to think of it more as a travelogue than a spy story, and enjoy Fleming's vastly-superior version of Tiffany Case.

 

I should note that it's the elderly Major character--who's usually presented as befuddled and clueless--who uses the N-word on Fawlty Towers (though the word is often deleted in modern repeats). Also, the original title of Agatha Christie's And Then There Were None was Ten Little N*****s, and it was used in the UK up to the 1980s. Americans were far more sensitive to the word, for obvious reasons.

 

Major Tallon has already explained that Fleming's use of "negro" was perfectly acceptable for the time. I think the most objectionable aspect of Fleming's racial attitudes is his assertion that blacks are inherently superstitious. But one has to remember that Fleming's attitudes reflected the Imperial outlook of someone born over a 100 years ago. Fleming provides a compact summary of his attitudes in a 1952 article he wrote for The Spectator:

 

In fact, I believe that most black races have more fears than the whites. They are timid experimenters and inept or unwilling rationalisers of their fears and superstitions. For instance, in Jamaica they insist on believing that the common lizard will bite, and a popular maxim of the country is: “When you see old lady run, no axe wha’ du matter, run too.”

They have other characteristics which are strange to us, but again not necessarily inimical, and they and their peculiarities must also be “embraced” if you decide to live among them. I find that their organs of sight and hearing are keener than ours, and that their extra-sensory perception, their sixth sense, is more highly developed. On the other hand, I think their physical strength is often undermined by weak nerves, and this makes them an easy prey to sickness or fear. Their tempo is their own and cannot be altered, but they are full of goodwill and cheerfulness and humour. They are loyal to good employers and sober and honest unless sorely tempted, but when they fall they fall heavily and far.

 

Modern readers can instantly see that Fleming has mistaken class for race--he could have just as easily have made those remarks about white peasants in any of Europe's poorer countries (it is, however, interesting to note that he talks of races within races). Also keep in mind that Fleming's statements were deemed acceptable enough to be published in a British mainstream magazine in 1952, which shows just how different times are.


Edited by Revelator, 04 October 2013 - 05:48 PM.


#6 Dustin

Dustin

    Commander

  • Commanding Officers
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5786 posts

Posted 04 October 2013 - 07:07 PM

Also keep in mind that Fleming's statements were deemed acceptable enough to be published in a British mainstream magazine in 1952, which shows just how different times are.


This. The topic of Fleming's supposed racism comes up with the regularity of an unwelcome season. But the simple fact of the matter is: it used to be different times, over a century since Fleming's birth, sixty years since he wrote LALD. Not only was his attitude towards race matters considered acceptable, it was in fact not far from the mainstream. The fifties and sixties of last century in the Western Hemisphere must largely be considered as a racist (and sexist) era by today's standards. There is a reason Martin Luther King held his by now famous speech when he did (1963), and there is also a reason he was shot for. And that was by no means just a US phenomenon - though it's interesting to note that in certain country clubs Jews were not granted membership until the 1980s; in the USA, of all nations! - but involved to some degree practically every Western nation. Fleming's views as expressed in that article - and of course his Bond novels - were considered 'risqué' at the time. But they were nonetheless still shared by many of his contemporaries. Just keep in mind that a country like South Africa - a 'developed', 'enlightened' and 'free' Western nation - left behind its racist apartheid ideology as late as 1994. And was supported for example by Margaret Thatcher throughout her days in office.

Edited by Dustin, 04 October 2013 - 07:19 PM.


#7 ChickenStu

ChickenStu

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 608 posts
  • Location:South East

Posted 04 October 2013 - 07:28 PM

I hope I've not come across as a man who finds Fleming racist. That is not what I'm saying at all. I'm just born of a different generation to the man, and I think I was somewhat taken aback by some of the vernacular of the time. I guess I was expecting a spy adventure, and got that aswell as a sort of time capsule in which different attitudes are still fresh when the lid pops. So in closing, I think it more represents the time it was written in than the man himself. Which is essentially what a lot of you have said already in response to my befuddlement. 



#8 Major Tallon

Major Tallon

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 2107 posts
  • Location:Mid-USA

Posted 04 October 2013 - 07:46 PM

To be sure, there is a good deal of adventurous action in a Fleming book, but it comes with Bond's thoughts about the societies, customs, and (notably) food of the places in which the adventures take place.  This may make the books seem "slow" to those immersed in the films, who are used to seeing an action sequence every few minutes, but they're really the reason the books have lasted.  Fleming made James Bond a real character, with thoughts, feelings, and attitudes, and brought the stories' settings to wonderful life. 

 

In passing, I was on our Bond tour of Venice in 2010, and as Mrs. Tallon and I were entering the city with our group guide, I took out my list of literary locations that I wanted to visit:  Harry's Bar, Florian's, and "the admirable Quadri."  The guide wanted to know for each location "What happens there?" and seemed a bit puzzled when I told her that these were places where Bond had something to eat or drink.  Yes, they're spy adventures, but they're much more than that.



#9 ChickenStu

ChickenStu

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 608 posts
  • Location:South East

Posted 05 October 2013 - 11:18 AM

I read Diamonds Are Forever early this morning. Can't say it really grabbed me to be honest. It was OK I guess - pretty well written - I just didn't find the story particularly engaging. 



#10 Major Tallon

Major Tallon

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 2107 posts
  • Location:Mid-USA

Posted 05 October 2013 - 04:58 PM

I kind of like it, but the general consensus is that DAF is one of Fleming's weaker books.  Anyway, you've got FRWL coming up next, and it and Dr. No are masterpieces!



#11 ChickenStu

ChickenStu

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 608 posts
  • Location:South East

Posted 05 October 2013 - 09:56 PM

You are telling me Major Tallon! I have literally just finished From Russia With Love and it was an absolute masterpiece! Not just one of the best Bond books I've read, but one of the best books PERIOD. I was absolutely engrossed from start to finish. And that ending! The next two books are in the post and I won't get them till monday at the earliest, which makes the cliffhanger that Fleming left this one on seem even more cruel! Man, what a book! 


Edited by ChickenStu, 05 October 2013 - 10:07 PM.


#12 Guy Haines

Guy Haines

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3075 posts
  • Location:"Special envoy" no more. As of 7/5/15 elected to office somewhere in Nottinghamshire, England.

Posted 06 October 2013 - 08:04 AM

Glad you are enjoying the "original source material", ChickenStu. I read one a day over a very tense period of my life - I was sitting my "A" Level exams  and wanted a relaxation in between last minute revision. It did me no harm, as I got the grades I needed in the end.

 

Moonraker is one of my favourite Bond novels, mainly because of the villain. I was amused by the idea that this man Drax had pulled the wool over the eyes of the British establishment and only Bond and M were onto him - and then only because he's a card cheat. (Shock horror! Imagine - a missile programme at risk because the man behind it pulls a fast one at the bridge table!)  Auric Goldfinger is a similar villain in that he, too, seems a respectable "British" type, but is anything but. However, it always amazed me that no-one dug deeper into Drax's background, accepting the "official" line about him as the "man from nowhere". Then again, if they had, there would be no story.

 

I think you'll enjoy the "Blofeld trilogy". I did.  You've read You Only Live Twice, but reading it after Thunderball and OHMSS you'll see how it all fits, and how Bond develops as a by now secret service veteran, distracted by love and ultimately driven by revenge. And you'll see what a missed opportunity it was that TB, OHMSS and YOLT weren't filmed in that order.



#13 Major Tallon

Major Tallon

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 2107 posts
  • Location:Mid-USA

Posted 06 October 2013 - 10:24 AM

Let's not forget that one other person got wise to Drax -- Major Tallon!



#14 ChickenStu

ChickenStu

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 608 posts
  • Location:South East

Posted 06 October 2013 - 05:23 PM

I think you'll enjoy the "Blofeld trilogy". I did.  You've read You Only Live Twice, but reading it after Thunderball and OHMSS you'll see how it all fits, and how Bond develops as a by now secret service veteran, distracted by love and ultimately driven by revenge. And you'll see what a missed opportunity it was that TB, OHMSS and YOLT weren't filmed in that order.

 

Thank you for your kind words. I will read You Only Live Twice again when the time comes, cause I can honestly not remember a thing from when I first read it. As I continue on this odyssey I am trying to put the films out of my mind as much as possible. I'm particularly looking forward to these Blofeld stories. He is after all the most iconic villain. 

 

Let's not forget that one other person got wise to Drax -- Major Tallon!

 

Aha! I knew I recognized your name from somewhere sir! Well done for getting the measure of that blighter!  ;)



#15 Dustin

Dustin

    Commander

  • Commanding Officers
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5786 posts

Posted 06 October 2013 - 05:41 PM

Moonraker is one of my favourite Bond novels, mainly because of the villain. I was amused by the idea that this man Drax had pulled the wool over the eyes of the British establishment and only Bond and M were onto him - and then only because he's a card cheat. (Shock horror! Imagine - a missile programme at risk because the man behind it pulls a fast one at the bridge table!) Auric Goldfinger is a similar villain in that he, too, seems a respectable "British" type, but is anything but. However, it always amazed me that no-one dug deeper into Drax's background, accepting the "official" line about him as the "man from nowhere". Then again, if they had, there would be no story.

MOONRAKER is the novel where the plot holes - and Fleming's carefreeness to cover them - become really apparent. What Fleming wanted was a fantastical thriller with a most appalling villain and a threat that most of his readers still remembered only too well from a mere nine years ago. He could just have made up a story about a Nazi who uses an ultra-secret and 'forgotten' V2 base to fire an updated version with nuclear warhead on London.

But that wasn't enough for Fleming, he had to have the Nazi disguised as a rough-but-amicable working class type and supposedly tragically wounded British soldier claiming amnesia about his background. He had to have the updated V2 base and the rocket itself built right into the symbol of Britain's impregnableness, the cliffs of Dover. Using a whole team of German Nazis as his workforce and being aided by the USSR - a famous ally of the Germans, which is why they won the war; wait... - with the donation of a gratis atomic bomb.

To pick just a few things apart let's start with the Soviets: well, given the fact Nazis were their sworn enemies who managed to murder millions of Russians, military and civilians indiscriminately, they should at least consider the theoretic possibility that Drax's weapon, conceived to reach Moscow by official design, will in the end reach Moscow. After all they occupy half of Drax's home country, didn't show undue restraint in paying their German enemies back for attacking them and used to be generally not known for their warm feelings towards the fascist and racist ideology. Let's ask ourselves: is it really a good idea for them to hand Drax not just the expert German rocket personnel in their immediate reach but also the atomic device he needs to exact his vengeance? No, I don't think so.

But that's not the end of it yet. The USSR also had the British intelligence and security apparat as well as parts of the political establishment infiltrated like few other countries, to the point of gaining serious information about high-level political decisions. Drax's Moonraker attack on London would undoubtedly have wiped out the greater part of that intelligence pool, cutting the MGB from one of its main assets. Furthermore, the only sensible use of this operation from Moscow's point of view would have been to use the subsequent chaos and confusion after London's destruction for a fast and relentless dash across Western Europe with the combined strength of their tank forces and their airforce, perhaps in combination with an invasion of the British Isles. Ok, MOONRAKER doesn't dwell on the topic, but the fact remains nothing in the novel suggests the Soviets intended to cash in on their investment. The very least one would expect would have been a warning to their most valuable agents in London and Britain. No such signs seem to have come to the attention of MI5 and Secret Service.

Which brings us to the crucial part of Drax's scheme. Not only does he need the authorities' combined ignorance about his own background, he also brings a considerable workforce of Germans - several of them known and wanted war criminals - into the country, every single one of which has to be vetted by MI5 and M's very own department. The only explanation for this practically unprecedented scale of failure in every single case is: MI5 and SIS - and possibly a large-scale conspiracy of political figureheads behind them - must have been in on the whole scheme, provided support and were ready to profit from the outcome. The Mail would doubtlessly squeal with joy and point at Miliband. But who would profit more than The Mail from London in ashes?

But the real implausibility of it all is mentioned in the book itself, plain for everybody to see. If Drax indeed can show up in Moscow and convince whoever's in charge of their Department for World-Domination on that day to lend him a king-sized fire cracker - instead of being sent to Sibiria or just to the cellar - then that's really all he would have needed. Get the thing from the jetty to the Mercedes, drive it to Ebury Street, wait for Trooping the Colour and watch the cloud from Calais. End of. Bond's briefing at the Ministry of Supply mentions the Moonraker rocket uses a kind of homing device to find its target, but the actual warhead doesn't have to arrive by air, it could just as well take a taxi, making the whole trouble with the Dover base, rocket site, exhaust, blast wall and so on obsolete.

Mind you, it's Fleming's talent that makes all those implausibilities irrelevant for the time reading. It seems the final chapter with its call for caution regarding a German rearmament - then topical and highly controversial headline stuff - points also to a less modest aspiration of Fleming's book, mirroring Erskine Childers's THE RIDDLE OF THE SANDS and its warning of an Imperial German Naval Force. But all in all it's also the book that introduced speed to get over the bumps in the plot.

Edited by Dustin, 06 October 2013 - 07:31 PM.


#16 Double Naught spy

Double Naught spy

    Sub-Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • Pip
  • 169 posts

Posted 06 October 2013 - 08:40 PM

Welcome to the literary world of Fleming's 007!  You're beginning an amazing journey and one I hope you will enjoy.

 

If nothing else, you'll get to see where the films diverge (sometimes greatly as in MR, DAF, TSWLM) from the books, whereas CR, GF, OHMSS and LALD borrow heavily on their literary counterparts (to a certain extent mind you).  And of course, by now you've realized that Felix Leiter is not some CIA master of disguise that appears totally different in each novel. It's a shame you've already read YOLT, because I was going to joke and "spoiler alert" that at the end of the book, Blofeld is revealed to be Bond's long-lost father and his housekeeper May is secretly the head of SPECTRE.  LOL!  (However, if you do want those insane plot-twists, might I suggest you keep reading the series after you're done with the Fleming novels.  As much as I enjoy the Gardner & Benson books for what they are, there are some really improbable plot twists in them!)

 

I would like to recommend you reading the newspaper comic adaptations (published by Titan) after you've finished reading each novel.  They are a very nice complement to the novels and, in some cases like TSWLM and TMWTGG, expand on Fleming's existing plots with new material.  (Speaking of TSWLM, if you're trying to stay off the bottle, lock your liquor cabinet and throw away the key when you begin reading the chapters of Vivian's long and tedious life story!)

 

Good luck and happy reading!


Edited by Double Naught spy, 06 October 2013 - 08:41 PM.


#17 Double Naught spy

Double Naught spy

    Sub-Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • Pip
  • 169 posts

Posted 06 October 2013 - 09:00 PM

Kudos Dustin!

 

I've read MR more than a half dozen times and I never once thought, "Hey, if they have the atomic bomb already in the country, they really don't need the rocket to deliver it into the heart of London."    



#18 Guy Haines

Guy Haines

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3075 posts
  • Location:"Special envoy" no more. As of 7/5/15 elected to office somewhere in Nottinghamshire, England.

Posted 07 October 2013 - 06:55 AM

 

Moonraker is one of my favourite Bond novels, mainly because of the villain. I was amused by the idea that this man Drax had pulled the wool over the eyes of the British establishment and only Bond and M were onto him - and then only because he's a card cheat. (Shock horror! Imagine - a missile programme at risk because the man behind it pulls a fast one at the bridge table!) Auric Goldfinger is a similar villain in that he, too, seems a respectable "British" type, but is anything but. However, it always amazed me that no-one dug deeper into Drax's background, accepting the "official" line about him as the "man from nowhere". Then again, if they had, there would be no story.

MOONRAKER is the novel where the plot holes - and Fleming's carefreeness to cover them - become really apparent. What Fleming wanted was a fantastical thriller with a most appalling villain and a threat that most of his readers still remembered only too well from a mere nine years ago. He could just have made up a story about a Nazi who uses an ultra-secret and 'forgotten' V2 base to fire an updated version with nuclear warhead on London.

But that wasn't enough for Fleming, he had to have the Nazi disguised as a rough-but-amicable working class type and supposedly tragically wounded British soldier claiming amnesia about his background. He had to have the updated V2 base and the rocket itself built right into the symbol of Britain's impregnableness, the cliffs of Dover. Using a whole team of German Nazis as his workforce and being aided by the USSR - a famous ally of the Germans, which is why they won the war; wait... - with the donation of a gratis atomic bomb.

To pick just a few things apart let's start with the Soviets: well, given the fact Nazis were their sworn enemies who managed to murder millions of Russians, military and civilians indiscriminately, they should at least consider the theoretic possibility that Drax's weapon, conceived to reach Moscow by official design, will in the end reach Moscow. After all they occupy half of Drax's home country, didn't show undue restraint in paying their German enemies back for attacking them and used to be generally not known for their warm feelings towards the fascist and racist ideology. Let's ask ourselves: is it really a good idea for them to hand Drax not just the expert German rocket personnel in their immediate reach but also the atomic device he needs to exact his vengeance? No, I don't think so.

But that's not the end of it yet. The USSR also had the British intelligence and security apparat as well as parts of the political establishment infiltrated like few other countries, to the point of gaining serious information about high-level political decisions. Drax's Moonraker attack on London would undoubtedly have wiped out the greater part of that intelligence pool, cutting the MGB from one of its main assets. Furthermore, the only sensible use of this operation from Moscow's point of view would have been to use the subsequent chaos and confusion after London's destruction for a fast and relentless dash across Western Europe with the combined strength of their tank forces and their airforce, perhaps in combination with an invasion of the British Isles. Ok, MOONRAKER doesn't dwell on the topic, but the fact remains nothing in the novel suggests the Soviets intended to cash in on their investment. The very least one would expect would have been a warning to their most valuable agents in London and Britain. No such signs seem to have come to the attention of MI5 and Secret Service.

Which brings us to the crucial part of Drax's scheme. Not only does he need the authorities' combined ignorance about his own background, he also brings a considerable workforce of Germans - several of them known and wanted war criminals - into the country, every single one of which has to be vetted by MI5 and M's very own department. The only explanation for this practically unprecedented scale of failure in every single case is: MI5 and SIS - and possibly a large-scale conspiracy of political figureheads behind them - must have been in on the whole scheme, provided support and were ready to profit from the outcome. The Mail would doubtlessly squeal with joy and point at Miliband. But who would profit more than The Mail from London in ashes?

But the real implausibility of it all is mentioned in the book itself, plain for everybody to see. If Drax indeed can show up in Moscow and convince whoever's in charge of their Department for World-Domination on that day to lend him a king-sized fire cracker - instead of being sent to Sibiria or just to the cellar - then that's really all he would have needed. Get the thing from the jetty to the Mercedes, drive it to Ebury Street, wait for Trooping the Colour and watch the cloud from Calais. End of. Bond's briefing at the Ministry of Supply mentions the Moonraker rocket uses a kind of homing device to find its target, but the actual warhead doesn't have to arrive by air, it could just as well take a taxi, making the whole trouble with the Dover base, rocket site, exhaust, blast wall and so on obsolete.

Mind you, it's Fleming's talent that makes all those implausibilities irrelevant for the time reading. It seems the final chapter with its call for caution regarding a German rearmament - then topical and highly controversial headline stuff - points also to a less modest aspiration of Fleming's book, mirroring Erskine Childers's THE RIDDLE OF THE SANDS and its warning of an Imperial German Naval Force. But all in all it's also the book that introduced speed to get over the bumps in the plot.

 

Hard to argue with any of that, so I won't! I'm sure I read somewhere that Fleming wanted to write another card game based novel along the lines of Casino Royale, but also a science fictional/warning against German re-armament tale, and somehow ended up bolting the two storylines together in Moonraker. Drax's scheme is almost begging to be uncovered, and yet nobody twigs it until Bond turns up. As for the squad full of Germans, the scenes involving them always remind me of that episode of the Michael Palin boys own spoof series "Ripping Yarns" in which the hero, played by Palin, uncovers a Cornish village full of German spies desperately pretending to be British!



#19 ChickenStu

ChickenStu

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 608 posts
  • Location:South East

Posted 07 October 2013 - 02:10 PM

Thank you Double Naught Spy for that kind response! Today my copies of Dr. No and Goldfinger came through, and I just went ahead and ordered the remaining seven Fleming books. If you don't hear from me for a couple of days, you know why!  ;)



#20 ChickenStu

ChickenStu

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 608 posts
  • Location:South East

Posted 07 October 2013 - 11:22 PM

OK, I have now read Dr NoYeah, pretty good. A good, streamlined thriller. Pretty seamless as it goes. Not as good as the previous one (I'm not expecting that to be topped really) but by now the reader can see that Fleming has settled into a formula and a formula he used wisely. It's good when an author does that. Fleming really had a unique voice. It's that "voice" as I call it that attracted me to my other favourite authors Stephen King and Dennis Lehane. A unique writing style to them that appeals to something individual in every reader.

 

Call it "literary charisma" if you like, but boy Fleming had it in spades! 


Edited by ChickenStu, 07 October 2013 - 11:24 PM.


#21 ggl

ggl

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 620 posts
  • Location:Spain

Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:20 AM

Hi, ChickenStu

 

I´m also rereading all Fleming and finding interesting things. Actually, I'm looking into literary references or quotes, not so easy to catch for foreigner readers (like me!). I´m talking here about that: http://debrief.comma...eming´s-quotes/

 

I´m with Dr. No right now and I found quite interesting the way the villain appears. In the previous one (FRWL), the first chapters had no Bond and only villains; now, Fleming mentions the Dr. but we don´t "see" him until the last half of the novel. I thiink Fleming was making interesting literary experiments and it´s a pleasure for the reader to find them when you read the novels in order...



#22 ChickenStu

ChickenStu

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 608 posts
  • Location:South East

Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:37 PM

Thanks ggl!

 

Well, I've just finished reading Goldfinger. I would say that's the best one behind From Russia With Love. Really epic stuff, outrageously entertaining! 



#23 Guy Haines

Guy Haines

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3075 posts
  • Location:"Special envoy" no more. As of 7/5/15 elected to office somewhere in Nottinghamshire, England.

Posted 10 October 2013 - 06:55 AM

Hi, ChickenStu

 

I´m also rereading all Fleming and finding interesting things. Actually, I'm looking into literary references or quotes, not so easy to catch for foreigner readers (like me!). I´m talking here about that: http://debrief.comma...eming´s-quotes/

 

I´m with Dr. No right now and I found quite interesting the way the villain appears. In the previous one (FRWL), the first chapters had no Bond and only villains; now, Fleming mentions the Dr. but we don´t "see" him until the last half of the novel. I thiink Fleming was making interesting literary experiments and it´s a pleasure for the reader to find them when you read the novels in order...

What I miss about the recent Bond novels, such as the new one "Solo" - which I've read and did enjoy - is the attention to detail that Ian Fleming brought to his works. Detail, not only in Bond's own tastes - cars, cigarettes, even marmalade at breakfast, the type of detail which William Boyd did pick up on in his recent novel - but in the background of the characters, especially the villains. Fleming would often spend the best part of a chapter telling the reader about the bad guy, or letting the villain tell his own story to Bond, as in Dr No. I felt this was missing in "Solo", and in other continuation novels.



#24 ggl

ggl

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 620 posts
  • Location:Spain

Posted 10 October 2013 - 12:56 PM

^^ I agree.

 

A "simple" analysis of Fleming´s books always has to mention the details about food and drinks. So, all the "new" Bond authors have talked about drinks and food but those were not the only details that Fleming used. Guns, dress, cars, birds are also very important in Fleming´s books but, of course, one of the reason they still are today a great entertainment is because of the locations.

 

Fleming could have known... what? 30, 40 countries? more? Reading LALD or DN, I can feel the Jamaican wind or listen to the birds. Those details are very difficult to copy, cause only a very rich man can travel all what Fleming did...



#25 glidrose

glidrose

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 2469 posts

Posted 10 October 2013 - 11:11 PM

What I miss about the recent Bond novels, such as the new one "Solo" - which I've read and did enjoy - is the attention to detail that Ian Fleming brought to his works. Detail, not only in Bond's own tastes - cars, cigarettes, even marmalade at breakfast, the type of detail which William Boyd did pick up on in his recent novel - but in the background of the characters, especially the villains. Fleming would often spend the best part of a chapter telling the reader about the bad guy, or letting the villain tell his own story to Bond, as in Dr No. I felt this was missing in "Solo", and in other continuation novels.


Absolutely. Oddly, Simon Winder in that Fleming compilation claims that Fleming appears bored when typing out Dr. No's backstory. That's my favorite part of the book!

#26 Revelator

Revelator

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 572 posts
  • Location:San Francisco

Posted 10 October 2013 - 11:45 PM

Absolutely. Oddly, Simon Winder in that Fleming compilation claims that Fleming appears bored when typing out Dr. No's backstory. That's my favorite part of the book!

 

I remember Winder claiming that Fleming rushed the climaxes of his books (a claim which is true for Goldfinger and arguably so for a few other books), but he if claimed Fleming was bored by No's backstory, than I have even less respect for Winder and his condescending, petty book. What on earth is there to be bored about when you're typing a story that involves Chinese tongs, priests making interracial love, amputation and attempted murder, and a criminal genius whose heart is on the wrong side of his body?

I agree that Fleming's "info dumps" on his villain's backgrounds are a great highlight of the books. Whereas Blofeld in the movies always seemed like a creature of fantasy, in Thunderball Fleming makes him eerily plausible.



#27 ChickenStu

ChickenStu

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 608 posts
  • Location:South East

Posted 11 October 2013 - 07:44 PM

Well today the books For Your Eyes Only, Thunderball, The Spy Who Loved Me, On Her Majesty's Secret Service, You Only Live Twice, The Man With The Golden Gun and Octopussy and The Living Daylights arrived. As I get through each book, I'll come back and talk about it separately. This is going to be fun! 



#28 ChickenStu

ChickenStu

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 608 posts
  • Location:South East

Posted 11 October 2013 - 11:53 PM

OK, I've just finished reading For Your Eyes Only. Here's how I break it down.

 

From A View To A Kill

 

Well written but a bit dry. Still, nice introduction.

 

For Your Eyes Only

 

Stunning revenge tale, really enjoyed it. Very solid short story.

 

Quantum Of Solace

 

Now this one was interesting. It kind of put Bond in my place. I was reading a tale of HIM being told a tale! Reminded me a lot of the old Roald Dahl Tales Of The Unexpected stories I used to read at school. I really like that kind of thing. Top notch.

 

Risico

 

Again, GREAT fun! I love the character of Columbo. Does he ever show up in a Bond book again? Very interesting tale. Intriguing.

 

The Hildebrant Rarity

 

Like the third one, has that pleasing "Dahl" feel to it. The open ending as to who was the culprit surprised me... unless I'm missing something? It was fun to see such a despicable character as Milton Krest be created, and then dispatched in such a grisly fashion. A darkly humourous, gruesome end.

 

All in all, I think For Your Eyes Only was an absolute winner. Took me a while to get into it, but once I got going - this highly engaging collection of five stories really delivered the good for me. This surely must rank at the top. A sterling collection. 



#29 Revelator

Revelator

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 572 posts
  • Location:San Francisco

Posted 12 October 2013 - 12:39 AM

I love the character of Columbo. Does he ever show up in a Bond book again? Very interesting tale. Intriguing.

 

No, but he's something of a first draft for Draco in On Her Majesty's Secret Service--just as Darko Kerim is a forerunner of Columbo. And in You Only Live Twice Fleming splits the character into Dikko Henderson and Tiger Tanaka. In Bond's world there are only a few character types--the larger-than-life foreign ally is one of them.



#30 Jim

Jim

    Commander RNVR

  • Commanding Officers
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 14266 posts
  • Location:Oxfordshire

Posted 12 October 2013 - 05:07 AM

Bond hit me at an early age and most of my ideas about women came from the views of Bond through Fleming's writing. Obviously I never saw much use for women other than sex toys and bullet catchers to protect others. Still feel that way. Fleming saw women for what they are. Tools for the use of men and little else.
As for the racism of LIVE AND LET DIE. It was the 1950's and blacks were considered the "N" word. I live in the South part of the USA and to me that is what they still are. He portrayed blacks as the dope fiends, criminals and garbage that they were and for the most part still are.
 
Randy


Amazed you can read anything through the slits in the hood. Go away.