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The Consensus on the negative response to Licence To Kill


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#61 Grard Bond

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 09:12 AM

I read in the book "James Bond Unmasked", in the Dalton interview, that LtK is not his favorite Bond outing at all. He likes TLD a lot more.

There is also the misunderstanding that LtK was written with Dalton in mind. He says that he just said: Try to write a Bond story as good as you can, without thinking especialy about who is gonna play Bond....but he thinks it was too much a one idea story and movie, just about revenge. Also he wanted more humour in it. He thought it was too bloody serious.


Edited by Grard Bond, 03 August 2013 - 09:17 AM.


#62 SecretAgentFan

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 09:26 AM

He may have changed his mind about this.  Other books (i.e. "The James Bond Archives") clearly state that LTK was tailored to Dalton (much more than TLD which had Dalton being cast at the eleventh hour).

 

Of course, he is entitled to look back and criticize it now, in hindsight.



#63 Grard Bond

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 10:19 AM

I'm not sure what exactly think about it myself. Especialy because of the fact that the JB Archives has no real new interviews, most of it is literal copied from the dvd docu's and other already existed interviews (and maybe there's is no real objective critisim, it is official stuff. Everything is great etc..).



#64 SecretAgentFan

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 04:48 PM

True.  But thereĀ“s still some interesting information in it.  And the photos are just superb.

 

Now you mention it - I believe LTK would have been received much better if it had been possible to set it in China as originally intended.  The whole "Miami Vice"/Florida-criticism would not have been appliable then.



#65 Janus Assassin

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 05:14 PM

I read "Bond on Bond" by Roger Moore the other day and  it states that John Glen considers LTK his favorite and best directed Bond film that he did. 



#66 glidrose

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 05:48 PM

I'm fully willing to admit that had Brosnan taken over, that he might have had a bit more success than Dalton, but I don't think that the returns on Licence to Kill (or whatever his follow-up to The Living Daylights would have been) would have been as astronomically higher than Dalton's as some would like to think they would have been.  Obviously, there's no way to know that for sure, and it's just an opinion, but I think that the aforementioned malaise surrounding the series and the rapid-fire release schedule that saw new films released every other year like clockwork (save for the 3-year gap between TMWTGG and TSWLM) probably had much more of an impact than the Dalton vs. Brosnan debate (which is not to say that it had no effect, of course).  
 
What they really should have done was to wait a few years after A View to a Kill and relaunch the series with Dalton and a whole new creative team surrounding him, a team that would have catered the films to his strengths rather than pulling in one direction while Dalton tried to break new ground with the character by pulling him in a different direction.  I think that the general idea behind Licence to Kill could have made for a big hit at the box office had they fully invested in it.  Someone adept at that type of filmmaking, perhaps someone like Brian de Palma, who had both Scarface and The Untouchables under his belt by the time 1989 rolled around, could have taken the reigns of Licence to Kill and really done something truly interesting with it.  The criticisms of the film with respect to general lack of quality from behind the camera are valid concerns when considering the film as just a film out against every other film in the marketplace, as its visuals to reference some sort of television-style look.  That said, it can't really be levied as a valid complaint against Licence to Kill within the context of the Bond franchise, as there are other Bond films that have had the same problems but don't get called to the mat nearly as much for them as Licence to Kill does.  GoldenEye, the "film that saved the series", looks every bit as much, if not more, like it could have come from the realm of television.  As I already said, bringing in a new crew behind the camera could have done wonders for the series and Licence to Kill, as there could have been some true interest from the public simply for the fact that it could have really looked different from what came before rather than just simply being a different coat of paint on a structure that had already been, more or less, built by someone else.



I agree that other films in the series (hello LALD and TMWTGG!) look more like tv than LTK.

I do think the series would have done better box office with Brosnan - especially in the U.S. - though nowhere near as well as would do with him in the 90s.

I agree with you entirely about GoldenEye, one of my least favorite films in the series. It scream big-budget cable film with little cinematic finesse. However GoldeneEye exudes confidence and is very sleek. Can't say that of LTK.

That said, I don't believe GoldenEye would have done anywhere near as well if Dalton were in the role. Certainly it would have had better returns than LTK.

The gap between TMWTGG and TSWLM was only two and a half years. Same as the gap between YOLT and OHMSS.

#67 tdalton

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 07:53 PM



I do think the series would have done better box office with Brosnan - especially in the U.S. - though nowhere near as well as would do with him in the 90s.

I agree with you entirely about GoldenEye, one of my least favorite films in the series. It scream big-budget cable film with little cinematic finesse. However GoldeneEye exudes confidence and is very sleek. Can't say that of LTK.

That said, I don't believe GoldenEye would have done anywhere near as well if Dalton were in the role. Certainly it would have had better returns than LTK.
 

 

-Agreed.  I think that, had Brosnan taken over and they had gone on to make The Living Daylights more or less as it ended up being with Dalton and then continued down a more middle-of-the-road approach with Brosnan, in terms of keeping things as something of a mixture between Connery and Moore, I think he might have fared slightly better than Dalton, but in the end I don't think it would have been enough.  I also think that the approach that Dalton took was necessary for the series to a large degree, as yanking the portrayal of Bond in the complete opposite direction from Moore kept the franchise from having a two decade run of, more or less, the same light-hearted approach to the character.  It would have been a bit harder for Craig (or whoever would have been cast in the mid-2000s in a revised timeline) to reboot the character in a more gritty direction had there been a couple of decades or more of a singular, light-hearted approach to the character.

 

-I'm a bit higher on GoldenEye than you, I think, but it definitely has a TV look to it.  I don't think it exudes all that much confidence, though, at least not in the Bond character in himself.  All of the politically correct overtones that are painted all over GoldenEye, at least to me, mark a film that isn't sure that it's hero is all that relevant in a post-Cold War and politically correct society that had risen up between Licence to Kill and GoldenEye

 

-I certainly wouldn't dispute that Brosnan had more financial success with GoldenEye than Dalton would have.  That's about as indisputable a fact as a hypothetical situation can end up being.  That said, however, I think that a GoldenEye film starring Dalton would have turned out to be a better film.



#68 Dalton37

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 05:50 AM

Do I think LTK underperformed because U.S. audiences weren't ready for Timothy Dalton? Absolutely. Do I think that has anything to do with Dalton himself? Not a bit. Dalton went from "Yeah, he was a good Bond." On first viewing of his films to usurping Connery in the top spot after reading the books and reviewing his films.

 

What hampered Dalton most was events taking place after Roger Moore stepped down. "Remington Steele" was the "it" T.V. Show in the U.S. around that time. When a poll was done in the U.S. as to who should replace Roger Moore, Pierce Brosnan won by a landslide, and why not? RS has many of the elements of the Roger Moore characterization of Bond that were well-liked.

 

But Broccoli sought out Dalton first, and if history is to be believed, Cubby never sought out an actor for Bond more than Timothy Dalton from 1969 on. Dalton, however, was wrapped up in filming "Brenda Starr", and said no. Cubby then tested, and cast Brosnan, and of course everyone in the US was excited. But NBC did what they did, and Brosnan was out, and the time it took to settle that score gave Dalton the time he needed to finish his work on "Brenda Starr" (And if I remember correctly, he finished filming on a Saturday, and was at Gibraltar to film the PTS of TLD on that Monday.

 

How did this affect Dalton? Because I think, right from the start, he was unfairly maligned because he was considered the '2nd Choice', and everyone was hot for Brosnan at the time. I'm not saying, mind you, that I think Dalton's outings (Well, outing, because they'd have never written LTK if Brosnan was in the role) wouldn't have worked with Brosnan, but Dalton seemed at the time, (And still to this day) to be considered by a lot of people as the 2nd, lesser choice, even though, IMO, he's much better than Brosnan (Who I like just fine) and he was never the 2nd choice in the first place. We have the internet now, and can find that out. But not in 1986-87.

 

Couple that with the fact that Dalton went the polar opposite way of Roger Moore, which while lauded by some, was considered blasphemy by others. He's too serious, he's not funny, I hear that over and over, yet I think he's very funny in TLD and has funny moments in LTK as well. The difference is the delivery. Dalton can make being "pissed off" funny. I still chuckle every time at the scene in TLD when he tells Kara they're not getting the cello, then in the next scene, there he is, moodily waiting outside for her. The only thing that would have made it more humorous would have been to have him angrily smoking a cigarette as well. And the eyeroll when he's trying to get her to drive into the plane is priceless.

 

Dalton's humor is there, it's there in a great many spots. It's just that Dalton does the joke and moves on, and doesn't insist on winking at the camera once the joke is done. Tonally, there's less in LTK, but there has to be. I will always believe that Bond revenging Felix is only a small part of the story. I think what sets Bond in motion most of all is the fact that Leiter lost his wife on his wedding day. It's the same thing he went through, and the scene where Della throws him the garter is there for a reason. To remind the audience that Bond was married once, and set in motion that what probably sets him off after Sanchez most of all is the death of Della bringing those demons back to the forefront. Later confirmed in the scene with M. "Spare me this sentimental rubbish. He knew the risks." "Did his WIFE?"

 

That brief, but awkward pause is there for a reason as well.

 

I think both Dalton's outings are brilliant, and I applaud him as an actor. I don't think even Sean Connery could have played Bond as strongly as Dalton did. And even Roger Moore's second outing faltered somewhat at the box office, despite having Christopher Lee. It's a shame Dalton didn't get his own "The Spy Who Loved Me", to answer the question once and for all.

 

Why did it falter in the U.S.? There's no direct answer. It's a variety of issues. One of the things that I do think really hurt it was an 11th hour change of the film's title. Originally marketed as "Licence Revoked" it was changed to "Licence to Kill" at the last minute because people either didn't know what "revoked" meant, or they felt that it sounded like Bond was losing his driving priviledges. So they not only wasted money on the advertising materials for that, they then had to rush for advertising with the new title, and so yes, it was poorly marketed. That didn't help at all.

 

It's a crying shame Dalton only got 2 films. He had so much to offer the role, and was a brilliant actor. But at least we got the two films we did.

 

Here are some of the concept posters with that title, several of them a damn sight better than the generic posters they rushed to create.

 

LicenceRevoked-Strip.jpg



#69 SecretAgentFan

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 06:55 AM

These advance posters are so fantastic. To not choose this artwork was one of the biggest mistakes any promotion department has ever made.



#70 ChickenStu

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 03:18 PM

A lot of myths surrounding this movie are untrue. Whilst it didn't smash any records, it was actually still a hit. OK, the summer was overcrowded with other blockbusters but this movie still held it's own. 



#71 glidrose

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 12:39 AM

But Broccoli sought out Dalton first, and if history is to be believed,

 

It isn't. This is another fanboy rumor that won't die. Broccoli clearly states in his autobio that they screentested Brosnan before approaching Dalton. Dana Broccoli suggested Dalton after the whole Remington Steele renewal mess happened. Broccoli remarks that they'd last approached Dalton seven years earlier and he clearly said he wasn't interested. Dana urged AB to reconsider TD. So they went to see TD who was appearing on stage in London. Dalton wasn't cast in Brenda Steele until some time after May 1986. The production company that made Brenda Steele only formed in May 1986.

 

I also don't believe Broccoli sought out TD as eagerly as you claim from 1969 onwards, putting aside that other silly fanboy belief that EON offered TD the role in OHMSS.

 

 

 

A lot of myths surrounding this movie are untrue. Whilst it didn't smash any records, it was actually still a hit. OK, the summer was overcrowded with other blockbusters but this movie still held it's own. 

 

Er, no. It faltered, failed, flopped. Take whichever f word you like, but it did not "hold its own". Especially in the U.S.



#72 tdalton

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 03:09 AM

I think that this thread has probably run its course.  Licence to Kill, regardless of whatever reasons or excuses one might want to make for it, failed at the box office.  That's an indisputable fact, as much as it pains me to admit it.  As far as I'm concerned, that doesn't make me like it any less nor does it give me a reason to believe that I should remove it from the top of my rankings of the Bond films (I still find it to be the best one that EON has made to date), but there's no argument that can be made to say that it was a box office success, because it wasn't.  



#73 Gothamite

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 11:44 AM

There's a lot in this thread since last I read it, so I'm not going to skim over it all. 

 

Suffice to say I love 'Licence to Kill'. I find it to be one of the most genuinely fun outings of the entire series, up there with 'The Spy Who Loved Me', in its own way. I really don't think it succeeded at putting a Flemingesque world up on the screen the way it wanted to - it's an overblown, barmy 80s action movie with ninjas and cocaine and exploding heads and revenge...ironically it's the only Bond film of the 80s that really captured the zeitgeist of populist films coming out at that time. But it's not the cold, dirty muddy world of Fleming. I honestly think the Craig films have done a better job at capturing that.

 

It's certainly got weaknesses, the direction could have been far bigger and more grandiose (part of the reason I don't think Dalton was ever properly embraced was because he wasn't given the kind of mesmerising camera shots that Connery, Moore and Brosnan all got).

 

Saying that the action wasn't impressive enough is a criticism I find to be entirely unfair. I've seen Tim Burton's Batman more times than I've seen any Bond film (note my name) and I find the action in 'Licence to Kill' to be bigger and more impressive. As a child, the tanker scenes, accompanied by Michael Kamen's version of the theme tune blew me away. They even copied one of the stunts in a Batman film just recently! 

 

I love 'Licence to Kill' for the slice of barmy 80s overblown action that it is, just the same as I love TSWLM for the epic 70s camp adventure romp it is.


Edited by Gothamite, 24 September 2013 - 11:45 AM.


#74 Dekard77

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 08:39 PM

In '89 I watched LTK. Loved it, everything about the movie was impressive. First time I wanted to watch a movie over and over again that wasn't a cartoon. The only other Bond movie I had seen at that time MR. 

 

However the hype was totally out to Batman. It owned the summer. Soundtrack,merchandising,leading lady, a cool looking Batman with gadgets and villain that is larger than life in every way. Later on I found out Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade,Ghostbusters 2 and Lethal Weapon 2 all were part of the cool crowd films to watch. Mel Gibson was considered a sex symbol. In most ways a modern take on JB . 

 

Present Opinion

The marketing for the movie didn't do anything to convince the audience, the lacklustre production and John Glens inability to direct someone like TD makes things worse. If you notice TD is cut out whenever possible. Peter Lamont and Alec Mills  :angry: are the biggest culprits. Bond films should look very expensive with a sense of fantasy not reality. A score that does't sit well on most parts and sounds very similar to Lethal Weapon/Die Hard than Bond. 007 should be charismatic(sex symbol) not any ordinary action star. TD was underused. The commercial for Lark cigarets advert has him in better light. While I don't mean to be cruel TD doesn't seem to have particular sense of style/fashion. Something that Roger Moore/Pierce Brosnan scored 100 points. 

 

I still love the movie, but it's not without fault. You can clearly see an exhausted crew with nothing new to offer and a director who doesn't know any better rather than play by numbers.

 

What I like about the movie

Underwater fight and jump to the plane. 

Pam in her swimwear. 

Sanchez, yes he was only cruel to people who crossed him and he did cross James Bond by maiming his friend. 

Tanker chase minus the wheeling parts. 

Bond defying M. 

Bond setting Sanchez on fire!

Sanchez office interview with Bond.

 

In this sense OHMSS is far more superior to this date with very few flaws .There is a sense of style and substance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



#75 wakeup37

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 11:52 PM

Slightly off-topic, but as the film title was only changed to "License to Kill" late in post-production, I wonder if any title song lyrics were already outlined for "License Revoked" by Gladys Knight, Eric Clapton, Vic Flick or others?



#76 tdalton

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 02:33 AM

Slightly off-topic, but as the film title was only changed to "License to Kill" late in post-production, I wonder if any title song lyrics were already outlined for "License Revoked" by Gladys Knight, Eric Clapton, Vic Flick or others?

 

I don't know if it affected Gladys Knight at all, but I doubt that it affected Clapton's work.  I was always under the impression that Clapton's contribution was an instrumental.  



#77 Iceskater101

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 12:09 AM

I get why people don't like this movie. I mean this isn't Sean Connery James Bond at all. This is completely different. For some reason though, I just really enjoyed this Bond movie. It had an interesting villain, a fresh new take on Bond, an attractive actor, beautiful Bond women. I mean this movie for me had everything and it's my all time favorite Bond film for sure.



#78 dtuba

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 05:44 AM

It's funny....I don't think very highly of LTK generally, performances by Dalton, Del Toro and Davi notwithstanding. I do think it is a decent story let down by lack of humour and the cheesy '80's touches don't help either. It's not in my top 10 and I usually am not compelled to pull the DVD off the shelf and watch it.

 

But if it is on...it's really compelling! I sit down and enjoy it, every time. And in the end, isn't that enough?


Edited by dtuba, 01 November 2013 - 05:45 AM.