48 replies to this topic

[Hansen]

I watched Moonraker yesterday. Some on you may say that the whole film is wasted, but I realized that if Jaws were not in the film, it would be significantly better as he truly wastes some very good sequences.

e.g, the PTS with Bond falling from the plan is great action until Jaws tries to fly like a bird.

Later on, the boat chase is again wasted with the close-up on him.

 

I started to think about other sequences that could have been great but were wasted because of bad direction / acting / editing / dialogues.

I thought of

- The ski chase in AVTAK ending with the Beach Boys song

- Bond cooking quiche lorraine in AVTAK

- The death of Scaramanga

- The tunnel explosion in SkyFall that makes no sense

 

 

Would you have any other idea to discuss upon ?

[thecasinoroyale]

Timothy Dalton.

 

Everytime.

[Mr_Wint]

- Bond cooking quiche lorraine in AVTAK

Just out of curiosity, what direction/acting/editing/dialogue is it that you don't like about this scene?

Bond simply takes it out from the oven, says "Et voilà. Quiche des Cabinet", and puts it on the table. What's the big deal?

[Hansen]

It feels awkward. When Bond protects a girl in danger in a big house, you imagine something else...

[SecretAgentFan]

At least the scene in which he calls Q for the perfect recipe was cut.

Edited by SecretAgentFan, 17 April 2013 - 01:07 PM.

[Ed83]

At least the scene in which he calls Q for the perfect recipe was cut.

 

Now, pay attention 007.......

[Eric Stromberg]

Agreed on the death of Scaramanga.  That should have been an epic showdown between the two deadliest people on the planet.  The funhouse should have been a stepping stone to another action venue with elements of grit, skill and luck on display before Bond's skin-of-the-teeth victory.

 

And Timothy Dalton...well, sometimes timing is everything.

[archer1949]

Timothy Dalton.

 

Everytime.

Booo!

[thecasinoroyale]

...I mean that in a good way archer!

 

 

(Or are you anti-Dalton?)

[Guy Haines]

In TSWLM, Jaws was menacing, if cartoonish. In MR he's become buffoonish. I agree with Hansen, I wouldn't have included the character in the film, but it's said audiences wanted him back, so what do I know?

 

The ski chase at the start of AVTAK was potentially the best since TSWLM....... until "California Girls" turned up. Then the scene became a kind of screen equivalent of nails being screeched across a blackboard, for me at least. And John Barry certainly didn't like what happened - "Where you had a good action sequence, it was like throwing a lame joke in the middle of something that was really working. Those things I never agree with." (Quoted from page 179 of "The Music of James Bond", John Burlingame.)

 

And the death of Scaramanga - watching that duel scene, I get the impression that something was filmed for the link between Bond stumbling around the funhouse and dropping a gun, I think, and then Scaramanga arriving, only to be shot by Bond pretending to be his waxwork, but was never used. There was a scene which featured in a TMWTGG trailer showing Scaramanga cheating by reloading his golden gun with bullets hidden in his belt, but that never made the final film. I wonder if there were other scenes filmed of the duel which ended up on the cutting room floor? Either way, Scaramanga's death seems to be wrapped up rather quickly - to allow more time for the inevitable "Bond blows up the bad guy's lair" scene at the end?

[Walecs]

The whole QoS movie.

[hilly]

The car jump in The Man With The Golden Gun... an amazing stunt just cheapened by the slide whistle
The ski chase in TWINE. A little more pace in the editing and it would have been on a par with OHMSS or TSWLM. As it is, it just feels a little sluggish
Ditto the opening credits fight in DAF and the battle on the oil rig

[Janus Assassin]

The ice dragster scene from die another day. Should have gone straight from the escape from the biodomes to the car chase.

[Baccarat]

The Q briefing scenes from the Moore era up to DAD. Too much silly stuff going on in the background that was never very imaginative or funny and became increasingly tiresome. John Cleese was hopelessly miscast in the final two Brosnan films, and his Q-as-Fawlty routine made a mockery of the character and the great Llewelyn/Connery scenes of the 60's. Thankfully, SF restored some dignity to the role.

Edited by Baccarat, 18 April 2013 - 10:46 PM.

[Hansen]

The car jump in The Man With The Golden Gun... an amazing stunt just cheapened by the slide whistle
The ski chase in TWINE. A little more pace in the editing and it would have been on a par with OHMSS or TSWLM. As it is, it just feels a little sluggish
Ditto the opening credits fight in DAF and the battle on the oil rig

Definitely, the oil rig sequence is probably the most soporific ending of the saga

 

The Q briefing scenes from the Moore era up to DAD. Too much silly stuff going on in the background that was never very imaginative or funny and became increasingly tiresome. John Cleese was hopelessly miscast in the final two Brosnan films, and his Q-as-Fawlty routine made a mockery of the character and the great Llewelyn/Connery scenes of the 60's. Thankfully, SF restored some dignity to the role.

Q sequence  is also spoiled in GoldenEye by the 'that's my lunch' line

[Guy Haines]

The car jump in The Man With The Golden Gun... an amazing stunt just cheapened by the slide whistle
The ski chase in TWINE. A little more pace in the editing and it would have been on a par with OHMSS or TSWLM. As it is, it just feels a little sluggish
Ditto the opening credits fight in DAF and the battle on the oil rig

Definitely, the oil rig sequence is probably the most soporific ending of the saga

 

>The Q briefing scenes from the Moore era up to DAD. Too much silly stuff going on in the background that was never very imaginative or funny and became increasingly tiresome. John Cleese was hopelessly miscast in the final two Brosnan films, and his Q-as-Fawlty routine made a mockery of the character and the great Llewelyn/Connery scenes of the 60's. Thankfully, SF restored some dignity to the role.

Q sequence  is also spoiled in GoldenEye by the 'that's my lunch' line

 

The Q scenes in the Bond films from the 70's to 90s didn't have to be played for laughs. Desmond Llewellyn's interpretation of the quartermaster, and the constant lack of respect he and his gadgets got from Bond, were humourous enough played straight.

[Skylla]

The whole QoS movie.

In comparison to other wasted moments in the franchise like: still use Connery after TB although he was so bored, no chronological Blofeld-Trilogy, or keeping Lazenby not long enough or Moore for two films too long, not hiring Lewis Collins to name just a few, QOS is an almost flawless film

[Skylla]

 

The car jump in The Man With The Golden Gun... an amazing stunt just cheapened by the slide whistle
The ski chase in TWINE. A little more pace in the editing and it would have been on a par with OHMSS or TSWLM. As it is, it just feels a little sluggish
Ditto the opening credits fight in DAF and the battle on the oil rig

Definitely, the oil rig sequence is probably the most soporific ending of the saga

 

>The Q briefing scenes from the Moore era up to DAD. Too much silly stuff going on in the background that was never very imaginative or funny and became increasingly tiresome. John Cleese was hopelessly miscast in the final two Brosnan films, and his Q-as-Fawlty routine made a mockery of the character and the great Llewelyn/Connery scenes of the 60's. Thankfully, SF restored some dignity to the

role.

Q sequence  is also spoiled in GoldenEye by the 'that's my lunch' line

The Q scenes in the Bond films from the 70's to 90s didn't have to be played for laughs. Desmond Llewellyn's interpretation of the quartermaster, and the constant lack of respect he and his gadgets got from Bond, were humourous enough played straight.

 

Absolutely right, it all became a bit too campy over the years. Blame it on the 70´s, I guess. On the other hand: I always liked Q best with Pierce Brosnan. It always felt like beside the mockery that they really liked each other - had a tear in my eye rewatching " always have an escape plan " after Llewelyn passed away.   

[plankattack]

The whole QoS movie.

In comparison to other wasted moments in the franchise like: still use Connery after TB although he was so bored, no chronological Blofeld-Trilogy, or keeping Lazenby not long enough or Moore for two films too long, not hiring Lewis Collins to name just a few, QOS is an almost flawless film

Ahhh, Lewis Collins as Bond. A long-dormant fantasy re-awakened!

 

Nothing in the thread I disagree with, so I'll stick my vote in the "should've been more Dalton" camp as the franchise's biggest wasted moment. And the continued failure in leaving YOLT's "Garden of Death" on the shelf.

 

On reflection that's not really a wasted moment, and neither is "more Dalton". Yes, they're both things that should have happened and didn't, rather than things that occurred and were just butchered. So I'll go with the DAF PTS. The most significant character (arguably) in Bond's life and it's resolved with mousetrap and 007 making mudpies? 

[The Shark]

not hiring Lewis Collins

 

More like a near miss.

[Professor Pi]

These are all valid points, but for my money it's the deleted scenes at the end of Quantum of Solace.  There are loose threads with Mr. White and Guy Haines that were never wrapped up, and now it's been four years (six in the life of the character), so it feels like it's getting too late to address.

 

Having been introduced to Bond in the 70s, the lighter tone of those movies were not necessarily disappointments to me on first viewings, though I learned to be more critical of them later.  Ditto the Blofeld trilogy--it is what it is, and somewhat addressed in the FYEO PTS.  The vague way DAF plays out it could be watched either before or after OHMSS without much loss of timeline continuity. 

 

Runner up would be the lack of a 30th anniversary movie in 1992.

[tdalton]

These are all valid points, but for my money it's the deleted scenes at the end of Quantum of Solace.  There are loose threads with Mr. White and Guy Haines that were never wrapped up, and now it's been four years (six in the life of the character), so it feels like it's getting too late to address.

 

Exactly.  Quantum of Solace and, to a far lesser extent, Casino Royale will always be something of wasted moments in the series because, aside from the obvious introduction of a new James Bond and new timeline, one of their main goals is to set up this brand new villainous organization for Bond to have to go up against, much like Bond had to go toe-to-toe with SPECTRE when he first hit the big screen back in 1962.  EON set up the organization, building them up to be this terrifying presence in Quantum of Solace that crept up on them and manages to have their tentacles in various areas around the world, only for them to be relegated to the scrap heap.  In realistic terms, Quantum can no longer exist, and it's a shame that we had to spend two films building up this organization only for Bond (or whoever else at MI6) to theoretically dispose of them in an off screen adventure.

[Tiin007]

These are all valid points, but for my money it's the deleted scenes at the end of Quantum of Solace.  There are loose threads with Mr. White and Guy Haines that were never wrapped up, and now it's been four years (six in the life of the character), so it feels like it's getting too late to address.

 

Exactly.  Quantum of Solace and, to a far lesser extent, Casino Royale will always be something of wasted moments in the series because, aside from the obvious introduction of a new James Bond and new timeline, one of their main goals is to set up this brand new villainous organization for Bond to have to go up against, much like Bond had to go toe-to-toe with SPECTRE when he first hit the big screen back in 1962.  EON set up the organization, building them up to be this terrifying presence in Quantum of Solace that crept up on them and manages to have their tentacles in various areas around the world, only for them to be relegated to the scrap heap.  In realistic terms, Quantum can no longer exist, and it's a shame that we had to spend two films building up this organization only for Bond (or whoever else at MI6) to theoretically dispose of them in an off screen adventure.

 

So you don't think EON will ever bring back Quantum? Can't Skyfall just be Craig's Goldfinger?

[tdalton]

If EON wants to continue operating in this supposed "realistic" universe that they appear to want these movies to take place in, then there's really no realistic way they can bring back Quantum given that nine years will have passed between the events of Quantum of Solace and Bond 24.  

[Guy Haines]

If EON wants to continue operating in this supposed "realistic" universe that they appear to want these movies to take place in, then there's really no realistic way they can bring back Quantum given that nine years will have passed between the events of Quantum of Solace and Bond 24.  

I think Quantum may be busted anyway because of the events in QoS. Was it really that clever to hold your "secret" meeting in an opera house rather than a proper secure boardroom? I suppose the members thought they were so above suspicion that being discovered could never happen. Well, that didn't turn out quite as planned!

 

Michael G Wilson mentioned in an interview about SF that since the TB rights issue was settled, SPECTRE could return. I now think that is more likely than Bond battling Quantum again. Either that or, having destroyed Quantum, Bond is sent after the mastermind behind it, who has retired to, er, "tend his garden" (hint, hint!  ).

[Odd Jobbies]

If we're talking about waste then top of my list are all of Fleming's novels, apart from CR.

 

They were raped and plundered to motivate scripts which, although i love them, are far inferior to the novels.

 

Craig and Haggis' CR showed how it should be done - enhancing the novel as necessary, but keeping everything that was good (which is an awful lot).

 

Now we find ourselves in the sad quandary of not being able to do this with the rest of the novels because they would be perceived as remakes, despite little more than titles, names, some plot points and moments resembling the original films.

 

To my mind this is a tragic waste.

Edited by Odd Jobbies, 21 April 2013 - 09:45 AM.

[tdalton]

I would have to disagree on Casino Royale and say that the film could also fit under this concept of wasted moments in the Bond films.  EON's decision to front-load the film with unnecessarily long action sequences (the parkour chase) as well as action sequences that are almost entirely unnecessary (Miami), led to them having to treat the Bond/Vesper romance in the second half of the film as almost an afterthought.  What should have been a final third that featured some great tension between Bond and Vesper as well as Vesper's descent into a terrifying paranoia instead is reduced to an overblown and implausible action sequence, which totally dilutes whatever small parts of the final third of Fleming's novel that they chose to use there. 

[Hansen]

I disagree with your disagreement

IMO, it is one of the best 'updatation'.

It keeps the story and fits perfectly in today's standard.

Plus, action is top notch especially the Parkhour.

[Odd Jobbies]

tdalton,

 

Even if i agreed that CR  wasn't a great adaptation of the novel, it is still a far far better adaptation that any of the other movies (with perhaps only FRWL coming close, but that movie threw out the great high concept first part of the novel and the breathtaking cliff hanger ending).

 

However, in CR  i personally feel they did a good job keeping so much that was great from the novel, but managing to sell it very successfully to a modern audience with all their expectations of an action-thriller met (much like the Bourne trilogy had done, proving an action film could also be a great thriller).

 

Sure, there's elements i'm sad they dropped, such as the extent and specifics of Fleming's the truly gruelling torture scene; the explosion which Bond miraculously escaped unscathed thanks to a lucky palm tree; and as you rightly say, the paranoia of the final act of the novel.

 

The biggest let down was the throwaway fashion in which they chose to deliver the final line of the book, "The bitch is dead", as though afraid of alienating the audience. After all, that alienation, to a certain extent was doubtless Fleming's intention - to state clearly and bluntly how much Bond had changed by the story's end - how dangerous and focused he'd now become - the moral question of cowboy's and indians left behind with Vesper.

 

Now, as McCartney said 'If you've got a job to do you gotta do it well', and Bond's job is now vengeance on SMERSH. Fleming new just how much that would make readers yearn for the next book.

 

In the movie the essence of this was only partially rescued by the cold blooded take down of Mr White in the epilogue.

 

But despite all this, the CR movie is easily the best adaptation of the series and if you don't think it's a good adaptation then what does that say about the rest of them?

Edited by Odd Jobbies, 21 April 2013 - 05:15 PM.

[Dustin]

not hiring Lewis Collins

 

More like a near miss.

 

At the time nobody bat an eyelid. I remember a couple of reports claiming Collins was the next Bond and most people - especially fans of THE PROFESSIONALS and tabloid hacks - pretty much agreed he was a natural fit for the job. I seem to remember Collins even was a favourite in a couple of fan polls. In the industry though there were stories about seriously unprofessional behaviour and I'm not sure he really had a chance. The last thing Broccoli could have wanted was a cocky lead actor who jeopardises his production with private escapades and stuntmen brawls. And that was Lewis Collins in the early 1980s for you.   

 

Most wasted moments in the series? Not acknowledging Moore's age in FYEO perhaps. That one could actually have profited from Moore's idea. Instead he's seen running up steps as if he was twenty years younger and at least twenty pounds lighter. 

Edited by Dustin, 21 April 2013 - 05:58 PM.