Jump to content


This is a read only archive of the old forums
The new CBn forums are located at https://quarterdeck.commanderbond.net/

 
Photo

Could The World Is Not Enough have been Oscar Worthy?


42 replies to this topic

#1 DamnCoffee

DamnCoffee

    Commander

  • Executive Officers
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 24459 posts
  • Location:England

Posted 25 February 2013 - 06:38 PM

Out of all the films in the Pierce Brosnan era, The World Is Not Enough was definitely a film that could've ended up a classic. First of all the title itself, probably got people thinking about Bonds past and family, only to be disappointed when the titles meaning is summed up in a throw away line by Bond himself. We also have a interesting story with M and the villain. We get hints into M's family. The World Is Not Enough could have been up there with the greats, if they didn't play it oh so damn safe. First of all, I don't think Brosnan is that bad of an actor. Films such as The Ghost prove this. If Brosnan is given the right material, then he can make a belter of a performance. Just look at GoldenEye. 

 

Overall the Brosnan era played it safe. What if it didn't though? What if Sam Mendes came on board 13 years early? Allow Brosnan to show a more human, and complex side to Bond. It's just a shame 1990's action films were completely dependant on scope and CGI and not story. The World Is Not Enough is definitely a missed opportunity. It's just a massive shame it wasn't done justice. In the right hands, I'm sure it could have been a classic Bond film, right up there with Goldfinger. I've always said that Skyfall is The World Is Not Enough done right. Think about it in terms of story and acting talent. (Robert Carlyle, Sophie Macau, Judi Dench, Robbie Coltrane) in the right hands, that film could have been a blockbuster. 



#2 QOS4EVER

QOS4EVER

    Sub-Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • Pip
  • 368 posts
  • Location:Hotel in the middle of the Bolivian Desert

Posted 25 February 2013 - 06:43 PM

I love that movie,  why people would hate on it is beyond me.

 

I see what you are trying to say but I am sorry, I really don't agree with you even the slightest. I don't want someone like Mendes to come on board who can't direct an action scene and hide his lack of talent by staying in his comfort zone and turn it in to a drama ,So they could beg for an Oscar.  that was an escapist Bond movie and it was best as such.


Edited by QOS4EVER, 25 February 2013 - 06:47 PM.


#3 thecasinoroyale

thecasinoroyale

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 14358 posts
  • Location:Basingstoke, UK

Posted 25 February 2013 - 08:24 PM

Hmm, I feel this still wouldn't pass for recognition by the Oscars in the slightest, even say if Mendes was on board back in 1999. The essential Bond formula itself was getting muddled and lost with each progressing film, and there was too much in 'The World Is Not Enough' to ground it in a simple action film.

 

It might have been recieved a bit better, even though it's not the worst Bond film now as it stands, but I doubt it would break ground over 'GoldenEye' to be the one Brosnan film to get awards and a stab at an Oscar.



#4 x007AceOfSpades

x007AceOfSpades

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4369 posts
  • Location:Sunny Southern California

Posted 25 February 2013 - 08:51 PM

No, definitely not.



#5 nickjb007

nickjb007

    Midshipman

  • Crew
  • 80 posts
  • Location:NC

Posted 25 February 2013 - 09:21 PM

I like TWINE but the only Oscar I can think of it could have been nominated for would be Best Song.

#6 The Shark

The Shark

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4650 posts
  • Location:London

Posted 25 February 2013 - 09:36 PM

Only if it had a better director, screenwriter, cast, cinematographer, composer, and so on.



#7 Baccarat

Baccarat

    Midshipman

  • Crew
  • 84 posts
  • Location:Nassau

Posted 25 February 2013 - 09:58 PM

I've always said that Skyfall is The World Is Not Enough done right.  

 

Sorry, but this is hands-down the most baffling comment I've ever read on CBn. TWINE is only slightly better than TND or DAD, which isn't saying much. How it stands any comparison to SF is absolutely beyond me.



#8 Vauxhall

Vauxhall

    Commander

  • Executive Officers
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 10744 posts
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 25 February 2013 - 10:07 PM

Only if it had a better director, screenwriter, cast, cinematographer, composer, and so on.

 

Seconded. The only way THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH could be considered Oscar-worthy would be if it was an entirely different film.



#9 plankattack

plankattack

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1385 posts

Posted 25 February 2013 - 10:14 PM

I get what the OP is trying to say here. Obviously TWINE in its current form sits near the bottom of most people's list (not mine - I've always had a soft spot for it), but you can see strands in it that, if followed with the kind of commitment made in SF, could have elevated the film from the genre. As opposed to say, I dunno, YOLT, for example; that's just an action/epic/spectacle. Efficient, effective, but limited by what it is.

 

There are some ideas floating around in TWINE - betrayal, deception, a hero not at his best, that are the same themes that SF is hung around. But like anything, it's all in the execution. What hurts TWINE is that it has to be a Bond film (unlike SF, which at times seems  determined to remind us that it is a Bond-film) - and at the time, that meant clinging to certain tropes and expectations. The action, not great for a start, continually has to intrude, almost on a predetermined schedule, there's a Bond girl who does nothing to propel the story along but has to appear because, well, it's a Bond film, and too much of the dialogue (iffy puns, R scene) is predictable in it's writing as it is its timing. SF is confident enough to take some ideas and structure a story around it; TWINE is what happens when some ideas are forced into the constraints of a "Bond-film." 

 

Many hands got involved in the TWINE script but I don't find it an accident that P&W's first involvement with the franchise shares a lot of similarities with their last. It's almost as if with SF (as EON's in-house set-up men), they went back to where they started. And made it better.

 

No, TWINE as it is now is not a classic. But you can find some DNA floating around in there that, Jurassic Park-style, could have made one.



#10 The Shark

The Shark

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4650 posts
  • Location:London

Posted 25 February 2013 - 10:20 PM

But you can find some DNA floating around in there that, Jurassic Park-style, could have made one.

 

Genetically engineered sexist misogynist dinosaurs?



#11 plankattack

plankattack

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1385 posts

Posted 25 February 2013 - 10:23 PM

But you can find some DNA floating around in there that, Jurassic Park-style, could have made one.

 

Genetically engineered sexist misogynist dinosaurs?

:D



#12 DamnCoffee

DamnCoffee

    Commander

  • Executive Officers
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 24459 posts
  • Location:England

Posted 25 February 2013 - 10:40 PM

I've always said that Skyfall is The World Is Not Enough done right.  

 

Sorry, but this is hands-down the most baffling comment I've ever read on CBn. TWINE is only slightly better than TND or DAD, which isn't saying much. How it stands any comparison to SF is absolutely beyond me.

 

  • Istanbul.
  • Scotland.
  • London based action sequences.
  • Judi Dench having a bigger role.
  • M's past with the main villain.
  • Main villain wanting revenge on M.
  • MI6 Terrorist Attack
  • Bond injured on duty.
  • Introduction of a new Q.


#13 RMc2

RMc2

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 607 posts

Posted 25 February 2013 - 10:56 PM

Michael Apted attempted with TWINE something very similar to what Mendes tried with SF. Unfortunately for Apted, he had the burden of formula and continuity with the previous 18 films, two screenwriters (Purvis and Wade) who had never worked on a Bond movie before, and a lot more pressure from the producers to deliver those ever-more-dazzling-and-unbelievable action set pieces, which he let the second unit take almost complete control of. TWINE was a bold break from the norm back in 1999 and I still really like it, for when it is good it is very good. But I think it's clear that the Bond series under the Broccoli children has been on a trajectory towards the great place it is at now and (fingers crossed) will continue to be for the next few films. TWINE is an important step on that trajectory, one of those learn-from-your-mistakes moments that was needed to deliver the quality we're enjoying now. Sure, it could have been better, but I think there were too many pressures and expectations that Wilson and Broccoli felt compelled to meet by that stage in Brosnan's tenure, the franchise's career and late 90s audiences for them to do anything other than mess things up a little by tempering the edge.


Edited by RMc, 25 February 2013 - 10:57 PM.


#14 DamnCoffee

DamnCoffee

    Commander

  • Executive Officers
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 24459 posts
  • Location:England

Posted 25 February 2013 - 11:00 PM

Very nice post, RMc. :)

 

I can agree that the great moments of The World Is Not Enough are to a rather high standard, but for me, they're just the odd exchange here and there and some kind of cool Bond moment from Brosnan. 



#15 Baccarat

Baccarat

    Midshipman

  • Crew
  • 84 posts
  • Location:Nassau

Posted 26 February 2013 - 12:19 AM

 

I've always said that Skyfall is The World Is Not Enough done right.  

 

Sorry, but this is hands-down the most baffling comment I've ever read on CBn. TWINE is only slightly better than TND or DAD, which isn't saying much. How it stands any comparison to SF is absolutely beyond me.

 

  • Istanbul.
  • Scotland.
  • London based action sequences.
  • Judi Dench having a bigger role.
  • M's past with the main villain.
  • Main villain wanting revenge on M.
  • MI6 Terrorist Attack
  • Bond injured on duty.
  • Introduction of a new Q.

 

A list of similarities, with the crucial plot elements rather tenuous: The connection between Renard and M (circumstance, not relationship); Renard's motive for destroying the sub (revenge against Elektra's father on her behalf, not revenge against M); the "attack" on MI6 (circumstance resulting from the assassination of King). Perhaps I'm missing the point of your original post? But there is no comparison between TWINE and SF in regard to intent, execution, talent (in front of and behind the camera), outcome,etc.



#16 Professor Pi

Professor Pi

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1430 posts

Posted 26 February 2013 - 12:53 AM

I agree with the posts of RMc, plankattack, and Vauxhall on this thread.  In fact, after I saw Skyfall I went back to watch TWINE and GE as they cover similar themes.  Severine's "not like him" dialogue reminded me of cigar girl's "not from him" quotation in the TWINE pre-title sequence.  It's nearly 20 minutes as they felt obliged by formula to have a huge boat chase instead of ending it when Bond escapes the Swiss banker's office in Spain.

 

They didn't properly develop Bond falling for Elektra like they did for Tracy and Vesper in the OHMSS and CR scripts.  (In another CBn post someone called it "Brosnan slobbering on the screen when it shows Elektra's picture.")  They could have ditched the Christmas Jones character and focused on the Bond-M relationship.  Also, there was no Paul Haggis and John Logan to clean up Wade and Purvis' dialogue.  Consequently, the techno babble in the submarine at the end is awful.

 

For me, it was the most noble effort of the Brosnan movies, but the finished product fell way short.  Though it got pretty good reviews for trying something different when it came out.



#17 Trevelyan 006

Trevelyan 006

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 820 posts
  • Location:Antenna Cradle

Posted 26 February 2013 - 02:19 AM

I don't really know for sure if I personally hate, or love The World Is Not Enough...

 

- Robert Carlyle's portrayal of the Renard character, I thought, was great for what it was.

- Denise Richards was smoking hot.

- Brosnan really seemed comfortable for the first time in Bond's shoes.

- The main bare-bones plot worked (A terrorist using weapons-grade plutonium in a chartered sub's reactor to cause a meltdown).

- Robbie Coltrane returned (whose appearance I personally thought was far better this time around,compared to GoldenEye).

- I enjoyed having the Charles Robinson character around during Brosnan's tenure. This character works well.

 

However...

 

- Other than looks, the Elektra King character did nothing for me.

- Denise Richards should not act in major films.

- The plot became overly clouded with the 'feel no pain' and 'double cross love triangle' business.

- The blow-up shelter snow coat bugs me.

- Certain lines feel forced.

- I wish the send-off for Desmond Llewelyn would have been more memorable and subtle.

 

As far as Oscar worthy? I don't think I could see it. The World Is Not Enough's worst enemy was it's lack of deep, believable emotion.

 

I just didn't buy any of the relationships between: Bond-Elektra, Bond-Renard, Elektra-M



#18 tdalton

tdalton

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 11680 posts

Posted 26 February 2013 - 05:31 AM

Sure it could have been Oscar worthy.  It would have needed a much better team behind the camera to pull that off, but it could have been done.  Considering it tells a rather similar story to that of Skyfall, it's not a stretch to believe that, with some changes in the cast (stronger actor as Bond, Zuchovsky dropped from the story, etc.) and a better director and drew (namely a better screenwriter to do a polish of the script), it could have been that kind of a film.



#19 Simon

Simon

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5884 posts
  • Location:England

Posted 26 February 2013 - 10:12 AM

Oscar?  No.

 

Raspberry?  Most certainly.



#20 SecretAgentFan

SecretAgentFan

    Commander

  • Commanding Officers
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 9055 posts
  • Location:Germany

Posted 26 February 2013 - 10:55 AM

Oscar? Obviously no Bond film will be getting serious Oscar attention ever...

 

But TWINE was too much ticking all the expected boxes of Bond clichés, despite trying for new interesting angles, to ever get award attention.

 

SKYFALL just had the momentum, the Oscar-friendly director and the Oscar-friendly actors which suggested it could win over the Academy.

 

Well, maybe it´s for the best that it didn´t happen. A Bond film should not be striving to get awards. It should strive to be an excellent Bond film.


Edited by SecretAgentFan, 26 February 2013 - 10:57 AM.


#21 Dustin

Dustin

    Commander

  • Commanding Officers
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5786 posts

Posted 26 February 2013 - 01:03 PM

I must say I see the point of this, TWINE certainly had a lot more potential than the final result suggested. Its problems are being rooted too far into cliché while not making the most of its ideas and cover large parts of screen time with brainless action pieces. The skiing/para glider sequence, the shoot out at the nuclear arms arsenal and the BMW/giant buzz saw confrontation serve little purpose or are even contradictory to the villain's aims.

Plotwise the script must be considered a failure when people still can't identify Elektra as the villain. It would perhaps have helped if M had been kidnapped earlier, ideally combined with killing Elektra's father. Thus the focus would have been more on rescuing M. As it is the whole attack on MI6 angle fell flat, at least if I compare it with the effect shown in SKYFALL.

#22 plankattack

plankattack

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1385 posts

Posted 26 February 2013 - 02:14 PM

I must say I see the point of this, TWINE certainly had a lot more potential than the final result suggested. Its problems are being rooted too far into cliché while not making the most of its ideas and cover large parts of screen time with brainless action pieces. The skiing/para glider sequence, the shoot out at the nuclear arms arsenal and the BMW/giant buzz saw confrontation serve little purpose or are even contradictory to the villain's aims.

Plotwise the script must be considered a failure when people still can't identify Elektra as the villain. It would perhaps have helped if M had been kidnapped earlier, ideally combined with killing Elektra's father. Thus the focus would have been more on rescuing M. As it is the whole attack on MI6 angle fell flat, at least if I compare it with the effect shown in SKYFALL.

 

I know I've become a bit of P&W defender of late - but I do want to give them their due along with the heaps of blame that we've all thrown their way.

 

I agree with Dustin that TWINE has one idea too many - whereas SF benefited from a pared-down, simpler narrative. I do think that TWINE and DAD both share that fault - TWINE keeps wanting to layer another idea, DAD layered to the hilt, with promising ideas that never quite flesh out, or are poorly executed.

 

SF on the other hand, keeps it simple, allowing the characters to breathe. I'd speculate and say that P&W's opportunity to adapt CR, allowed them to grow as writers, teaching them that a straightforward narrative isn't a bad thing.

 

TWINE wants to prove its worth by twisting and turning, but when the execution is off, it ends up bit of a mess, with confusion and unfinished business. Bond is hurt but that quickly is forgotten - the Renard-Electra relationship is never fleshed out, likewise the M-Electra-King stuff; the M kidnapping is kind of wedged in, as is the Bond letting his emotions cloud his judgement stuff.

 

Each of these ideas would have paid off better if followed, but TWINE wants to prove its worth by its breadth rather than its depth.

 

Am I making sense????



#23 SecretAgentFan

SecretAgentFan

    Commander

  • Commanding Officers
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 9055 posts
  • Location:Germany

Posted 26 February 2013 - 02:17 PM

You do. But please remember that P & W´s script or TWINE was re-written by Michael Apted´s wife...



#24 nickjb007

nickjb007

    Midshipman

  • Crew
  • 80 posts
  • Location:NC

Posted 26 February 2013 - 02:33 PM

Apted's wife worked on rewriting of M and Elektra. So I don't know if I would say it was completely re-written. And then Bruce F. from TND re wrote items to make Bond more like Bond.

#25 plankattack

plankattack

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1385 posts

Posted 26 February 2013 - 02:53 PM

Apted's wife worked on rewriting of M and Elektra. So I don't know if I would say it was completely re-written. And then Bruce F. from TND re wrote items to make Bond more like Bond.

 

And this is part of the problem. Most scripts in the business seem to get a lot of different hands on them, and it's clear that TWINE (like TND) went through a good number of people, which might explain the fact that it's main thrust is lost or watered down, as each writer attempts to add their bit.

 

From all accounts, it seems that both CR and SF went through just two hands of note, and you can't argue with the quality of the finished product.



#26 FlemingBond

FlemingBond

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 610 posts
  • Location:Phoenix, Az U.S.

Posted 26 February 2013 - 03:28 PM

Not even close.

It could have been very good, but after a good opening 1/3 of the movie it turns into a series of action set pieces. I mean they were trying to get into a real complicated romance for Bond with a woman who turns out to be the villain...but they only spend one day together. After Bond kills her there's about 15 minutes there of him trying to stop Reynard, and yet the emotional climax ended with him killing her.  And a real serious ending to the film would have had Bond going off by himself...not in bed with Christmas Jones.



#27 Turn

Turn

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 6837 posts
  • Location:Ohio

Posted 26 February 2013 - 11:31 PM

A big part of the problem for me was the action in TWINE was so lacklustre and uninspired. I'll give the precredits a pass, particularly for the Bilbao scene, which kind of hints at what the Craig Bond would be like as far as taking care of everybody in the room.

 

But overall when I think of TWINE, I keep thinking back to walking out of my first viewing and my friend and I discussing how it was just there and his saying there were no superlatives at all. I've said before that if you watch the ski scene, it almost seems the explosions go off in an almost choreographed way where you expect them to. That's the last thing I want out of a Bond movie. For all the slamming DAD gets, at least I had fun with in the action scenes.

 

The attack on the caviar factory seems like something left over from a Moore-era script. The climactic fight in the sub is one of the least exciting in the series.

 

Besides that, it's a really gloomy movie. Everything seems grey and cold throughout. These are just a few of the many reasons this is my least favorite Bond film.



#28 nickjb007

nickjb007

    Midshipman

  • Crew
  • 80 posts
  • Location:NC

Posted 27 February 2013 - 12:38 AM

The deal with the buzz saws on the helicopters had been an idea that BJ Worth showed Wilson after Moonraker was made.  It was in the original script for Goldeneye and it got cut.  Source is The World Is Not Enough A Companion by Iain Johnstone



#29 Simon

Simon

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5884 posts
  • Location:England

Posted 27 February 2013 - 02:45 PM

It was the only Bond film where during my first viewing, I was looking at my watch to see how much more of this I had to sit through.

 

And I had by then only sat through an hour's worth...



#30 Iceskater101

Iceskater101

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 2398 posts
  • Location:Midwest, MN

Posted 02 March 2013 - 04:01 PM

No way, I mean James Bond just won't ever win an oscar, there are certain movies that the Oscar avoids including fantasy films and action films (stereotypically)