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Did Bond fail his mission in SF and Silva ultimately win?


52 replies to this topic

#31 Iceskater101

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 05:13 AM

You could argue it both ways, ultimetely Silva's man was the one that shot M leading to her demise not directly Silva himself so in a way he lost. He won because M did die. I mean it can be argued from both ways. I am going to go with James Bond did win because he got revenge for M. He killed Silva directly.

#32 Goldbadge

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 05:30 AM

Pussfeller, that "property owner" I'm pretty sure was Bond. A reference was made to him buying the place at some point after he grew up and also his gun collection was stored there.

#33 Pussfeller

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 08:02 AM

I'm pretty sure there was a line about "them" selling the house when they thought Bond was dead.

#34 thecasinoroyale

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:55 PM

I don't think Silva was successful in his task. If anything, MI6 were stronger out of everything he did and he never took the revenge he wanted on M, it was other circumstances that took her even though he led the attack on Skyfall, and his words were "She's mine!", but she never was in the end.

Plus, he was killed by 007 and not taken by M whom he wanted to pull the trigger to retribute them both for what they had done, so sadly I think Silva died an unfinished, broken man who was so close but Bond stopped him in the final moments.

He caused terror, fear and havoc but from the Westminster enquiry scene, his face shows sheer anger and frustration when MI6 rallies together to save M and protect her which he didn't count on. M may have lost the hard-drive, that is a granted failure on her part, but she fights her corner and as a result, Bond does eventually stop the list leaking further with the demise of Silva and his network and MI6 becomes more relevant than ever in the eyes of London and the world, fighting the enemies in the shadows who showed their force at the right time.

#35 MkB

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 05:03 PM

I'm pretty sure there was a line about "them" selling the house when they thought Bond was dead.


I concur. Kincade says it during his first encounter with Bond.

#36 Harmsway

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 06:23 PM

I bet Silva would say Bond won. He looks pretty mad when he realizes he's been stabbed in the back by MI6 (for the second time).

Yep.

Bond wins by denying Silva the satisfaction of revenge.

#37 Loomis

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 06:50 PM

I think it's pretty much a win for Silva.

He severely disrupts MI6 (unrealistic to expect that he could smash it forever, although smashing it forever wasn't part of his plan).

He more or less gets M fired and destroys her reputation in her process. Her last weeks in the job are as a lame duck who must face the humiliation of an MPs' enquiry.

Right at the end of the film, Silva appears to realise that M is mortally wounded. True, he doesn't actually get to witness the moment of her death, but he surely knows that she has mere minutes to live.

Sure, Silva doesn't get to kill M and himself with the same bullet, but, heck, it seems to me that he still gets about 90% of what he wants at least. Not bad going for a Bond villain.

#38 Judo chop

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 07:46 PM

Sure, Silva doesn't get to kill M and himself with the same bullet, but, heck, it seems to me that he still gets about 90% of what he wants at least. Not bad going for a Bond villain.

I don't think there is such a thing as 90% when you're a maniac. There is total success, or there is failure. The world is not enough for these guys.

#39 Iceskater101

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 10:53 PM

I mean in the beginning though, Silva completely messes up MI6 and it results in one or two agents getting assassinated, but that doesn't mean that he "wins" if he would have "won" he would have released all the names and he never got the chance to.

#40 Loomis

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:31 PM

I mean in the beginning though, Silva completely messes up MI6 and it results in one or two agents getting assassinated, but that doesn't mean that he "wins" if he would have "won" he would have released all the names and he never got the chance to.


I think the releasing of the names is just a means to an end and not an end in itself. If Silva wanted all the agents dead, he'd surely have released all the names at once. I don't think he particularly wants any of them to die (M is the only person he has any quarrel with), but the deaths of a few of them do serve a purpose in terms of making things difficult for M.


Sure, Silva doesn't get to kill M and himself with the same bullet, but, heck, it seems to me that he still gets about 90% of what he wants at least. Not bad going for a Bond villain.

I don't think there is such a thing as 90% when you're a maniac. There is total success, or there is failure. The world is not enough for these guys.


Come to think of it, I personally read the two-deaths-with-one-bullet wheeze as a spur-of-the-moment idea that occurs to Silva only once he has M at his mercy in the chapel, as opposed to the long-planned culmination of his scheme (this is just my reading of it, though - as with a few other things in SKYFALL it's open to interpretation). In which case, Silva isn't 90% successful - he's 100% successful.

#41 Harmsway

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 04:06 PM

The double-suicide was an improv by Silva, but the attempt to murder M personally was not. It was the planned climax of his plan in London, and when he was robbed of that, he tried again at Skyfall, where he again fails to kill M personally (sure, she dies of a wound given to her by one of Silva's thugs, but that wasn't Silva's desire, hence his, "Don't touch her!" instructions to his cronies, and his "What have they done to you?" comment to M).

#42 Iceskater101

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 04:16 PM

I think the releasing of the names is just a means to an end and not an end in itself. If Silva wanted all the agents dead, he'd surely have released all the names at once. I don't think he particularly wants any of them to die (M is the only person he has any quarrel with), but the deaths of a few of them do serve a purpose in terms of making things difficult for M.


Yeah but that doesn't mean that he won though. I mean let's put it this way. In the Dark Knight the Joker wrecks a lot of havoc on Gotham does that mean he won? No, because he was stopped by Batman. I mean that's how I look at it. Silva did release the names, but James Bond stopped him from killing M personally and releasing the rest of the names.

That's my view on it anyway.

#43 Guy Haines

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:48 AM

BTW this is the first time Craig kills the main villain! remember...

a. Le Chiffre was shot by Mr White
b. Greene was shot by someone in White's organization


Good point. All we await now is a leading lady sleeping with this Bond and surviving to the end of the film. To think, in the song it was Goldfinger who had the "kiss of death". This isn't a criticism of Craig's Bond, but of the way the screenwriters have framed his encounters with "Bond women". As he says in SF - "someone usually dies".

#44 deth

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:33 AM

The point was hardly to protect M. Yes, he didn't want her to die... but the whole point of taking her along was as bait for Silva. If he really wanted to protect M, he could have just anonymously checked her into a hotel somewhere. No, he used M to destroy Silva.

#45 MkB

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:42 PM

The point was hardly to protect M. Yes, he didn't want her to die... but the whole point of taking her along was as bait for Silva. If he really wanted to protect M, he could have just anonymously checked her into a hotel somewhere. No, he used M to destroy Silva.


But in this case, he could also have anonymously checked her into a hotel somewhere, and let Silva believe (through Q's breadcrumbs) that she was with him in Skyfal. Tactically, Bond's decision is a mess.

#46 deth

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 11:56 PM

Indeed. Maybe he just wanted to see if she'd utter a swear word in his presence.

#47 sharpshooter

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 12:49 PM

Silva left a mark, no doubt. But I think the fact he didn't kill M personally, nor did he live to see it, takes a hefty chunk away from him. He didn't want anyone else touching her. He wanted the glory.

As a character, Silva’s acts are no doubt wicked, but as Javier Bardem noted, who says a villain is a bad person? He giggles to himself and has a disturbing aura, but you can understand why Silva thinks the way he does. To him, it makes perfect sense and is all justified. He was captured, tortured and loyal.

He kept his mouth shut and paid a heavy price. Every man has his breaking point, and Silva had his. Taking the cyanide to end his life, but instead burning his insides out and having his teeth horribly damaged. Thus, giving him a physical deformity in the classic Bond villain mold.

Silva saw it as destiny, thinking it was his calling to see M again, the woman who gave him up, and repay the favour. To him it was all a divine plan that was set into motion, which he believed right up to the point he’s literally and figuratively stabbed in the back again in a chapel.

What’s interesting about him is the mirror he presented to Bond. During his introduction he goaded Bond into ditching M, truly being his own man and undertaking his own assignments. Mallory wondered why Bond didn’t stay dead. Well, I think it’s because he needs purpose, no going into the ‘soft life’ for too long. Bond often finds himself rebelling against his superiors, but nonetheless enjoys structure in his life.

#48 AMC Hornet

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:38 AM

But in this case, he could also have anonymously checked her into a hotel somewhere, and let Silva believe (through Q's breadcrumbs) that she was with him in Skyfal. Tactically, Bond's decision is a mess.

How far is Glencoe from London?

How many military bases would you pass along the way?

How many opportunities were there for Bond to drop M off in a safe location and arrange for the SIS or SBS to stake out Skyfall (without using radio or internet) and be ready for Silva's team?

Of course, that's less dramatic, and less "This time it's personal - yet again."

Not that I'm complaining - it was all worth it for the moment when BMT 316A opens up with the .30 cals.

#49 Dustin

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:01 PM

Question is: would Silva have had the nerve to kill M if she wasn't injured and Bond didn't interfere?

I doubt it. In the end she was still his authority figure, the woman he endured enormous pain for and was ultimately willing to die for rather than betraying. Only later he learned M had sold him, had ditched him like a broken useless tool. Silva's aim to me isn't really revenge, he wants her to take him back, the former master pupil, probably the agent she forged her career on. 'Mommy' is a revealing word he uses in his first scene. The exchange between M and Bond about orphans usually being the best recruits points in the same direction, M intentionally taking over the role of a missing part in the lives of her agents.

#50 sharpshooter

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 04:15 AM

I was just thinking today about Silva's death - the use of the knife. Apart from being stabbed in the back again, recall Kincade's comment about the knife. "Sometimes the old ways are the best." This recurring theme of old and new. After helicopters, machine guns and explosives, it came down to this.



#51 Iceskater101

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 06:39 PM

^ There are a lot of themes in Skyfall, but this old and new is probably the most prominent.



#52 AMC Hornet

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 08:41 PM

If I were writing the novelization of Skyfall I would mention that Silva was perfectly well aware that his pistol was loaded with prefragmented rounds that would explode inside M's skull and not create an exit wound.

 

It was also apparent to me that Silva expected to encounter resistance at Skyfall Lodge, so he sent a dozen men in on foot to soften up Bond and M, and get them to use up whatever ammunition they had. Then he comes screaming out of the sky like Robert Duval in Apocalypse Now to deliver the coup de grace. What he hadn't counted on was Bond's willingness to blow the whole place up to stop him (as he also wasn't aware of the priest's hole).

 

 

"You'll never know how it feels to get so close and be denied" could be Silva's anthem. Once he had M in his sights again, he wasn't going to linger over his moment of triumph like he did in the hearing room - only he did. As much as Sanchez was based on Othello, so was Silva based on Hamlet - a lot of planning and laying siege to his enemy, only to keep delaying, waiting for that perfect moment that finally comes too late.

 

So in that sense Bond did win, if only because he led Silva to his ultimate, inevitable failure. The look on his face when Bond planted that knife in his back wasn't so much one of pain as...being totally pissed off. Rolling his eyes, you could almost hear echoes of Drax and Kamal muttering about nasty habits and unloved seasons. And Bond's remark - harkening back to Silva's speech about rats and M's agenda - was the perfect metaphorical twisting of the aforementioned dagger.

 

However great a sequence it was, however, I still can't get past the unlikelihood of spending that long a time on the road to reach a ramshackle old dump in the highlands, in order to stage a last stand. Although, during my third viewing, I finally made the connection with Silva's taunt about the psychologist's remarking upon Bond's "unresolved childhood trauma." So blowing up his childhood home serves as a form of catharsis for Bond - a shedding of old pains and regrets, and whether M lived or died he was rid of her influence too. Hopefully now - at age 44 (the same age Roger Moore was when he started) - Bond can stop 'growing' into the role of 007 and damn well be the 007 we've been waiting to see again since...when, 1997?



#53 Dustin

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:07 PM

I don't think somebody resisting interrogation and swallowing a death pill is really much interested in the concept of 'winning' something any more. That guy went to hell and back for M, he wouldn't have been able to kill her if Bond went to Edinburgh for a hot shower and a decent meal in the meantime. His conditioning just wouldn't have allowed it, he was her creature.