513 replies to this topic

[coco1997]

HELLLL NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! If bond was ever black i would never watch another bond movie and i would kill myself.

Seems like a bit of an overreaction, but okay.

[SecretAgentFan]

HELLLL NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! If bond was ever black i would never watch another bond movie and i would kill myself.

 

That is very disturbing, actually.

[Dustin]

HELLLL NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! If bond was ever black i would never watch another bond movie and i would kill myself.

 

That is very disturbing, actually.

 

 

To me it seems pretty logical, the dead probably don't watch a lot of Bond films. Never heard of a dead person complaining about a Bond film. Or the placing of the gun-barrel for that matter.

 

Come to think of it...never heard of a dead person complaining about any film. Probably have better entertainment, wherever that may happen to be.

[coco1997]

Not sure if this question has been raised but I figured I'd bring it up: Say, hypothetically, Elba was to replace Craig as Bond. Does that mean Bond would become a black character for good? In other words, must the actor who succeeds Elba himself be black? I ask this because if James Bond becoming a black character demonstrates how the franchise and society have "evolved", then wouldn't making the character Caucasian again be, in a sense, a sign of 'devolution'?

I posted this on the previous page but no one seemed to notice.

I'm genuinely curious what those in the pro-Elba/pro-black Bond camp have to say to this.

[S K Y F A L L]

How about if Craig's Bond is 'transformed' into being black as a disguise like when Connery was turned Japanese? 

[Dustin]

Not sure if this question has been raised but I figured I'd bring it up: Say, hypothetically, Elba was to replace Craig as Bond. Does that mean Bond would become a black character for good? In other words, must the actor who succeeds Elba himself be black? I ask this because if James Bond becoming a black character demonstrates how the franchise and society have "evolved", then wouldn't making the character Caucasian again be, in a sense, a sign of 'devolution'?

I posted this on the previous page but no one seemed to notice.

I'm genuinely curious what those in the pro-Elba/pro-black Bond camp have to say to this.

 

Perhaps you expected a huge pro-Elba/pro-black Bond backlash? Sorry, I think that's missing the point somewhat. Evolution would mean the race of the character - as far as its phenotype is concerned - isn't an issue any more. Therefore Bond could be characterised as 'British' but the actual phenotype could be any number of characteristics sufficiently 'heroic' enough that can be found in the UK today. Or rather in 30+ years, as I think I've repeatedly stated it won't come to that much sooner. At any rate another Caucasian actor certainly wouldn't mean devolution. 

[coco1997]

How about if Craig's Bond is 'transformed' into being black as a disguise like when Connery was turned Japanese? 

I think that would definitely be asking for trouble.

 

Perhaps you expected a huge pro-Elba/pro-black Bond backlash? Sorry, I think that's missing the point somewhat. Evolution would mean the race of the character - as far as its phenotype is concerned - isn't an issue any more. Therefore Bond could be characterised as 'British' but the actual phenotype could be any number of characteristics sufficiently 'heroic' enough that can be found in the UK today. Or rather in 30+ years, as I think I've repeatedly stated it won't come to that much sooner. At any rate another Caucasian actor certainly wouldn't mean devolution.

Wasn't expecting a backlash, and no, I don't think I'm missing the point at all. It's completely legitimate to raise the question of how the franchise would move forward after casting its first black actor once said actor leaves the role. I think you might be giving society a bit too much credit if you don't think a fair number of eyebrows would be raised and cries heard were they to replace Elba, etc. with an actor who, shall we say, more closely resembles the previous six Bonds.

[Dustin]

How about if Craig's Bond is 'transformed' into being black as a disguise like when Connery was turned Japanese? 

I think that would definitely be asking for trouble.

 

>Perhaps you expected a huge pro-Elba/pro-black Bond backlash? Sorry, I think that's missing the point somewhat. Evolution would mean the race of the character - as far as its phenotype is concerned - isn't an issue any more. Therefore Bond could be characterised as 'British' but the actual phenotype could be any number of characteristics sufficiently 'heroic' enough that can be found in the UK today. Or rather in 30+ years, as I think I've repeatedly stated it won't come to that much sooner. At any rate another Caucasian actor certainly wouldn't mean devolution.

Wasn't expecting a backlash, and no, I don't think I'm missing the point at all. It's completely legitimate to raise the question of how the franchise would move forward after casting its first black actor once said actor leaves the role. I think you might be giving society a bit too much credit if you don't think a fair number of eyebrows would be raised and cries heard were they to replace Elba, etc. with an actor who, shall we say, more closely resembles the previous six Bonds.

 

 

It's certainly legitimate, it's just beside the point IMO. Of course any kind of recasting the role leads to widespread turmoil amongst those that championed the then-model-of-yesterday. It's pretty much what we've seen happening with Brosnan, it's what we'll see happening when Craig's time comes. It's not going to be any worse just because the actor-to-be-replaced is not conventionally Caucasian, or his replacement not sufficiently exotic any more. The mere example of this thread shows nearly every conceivable response to such developments, from wildly overblown to down-to-earth pragmatism. In emergency it will just be more of it, not worse.

 

Yes, perhaps it is indeed giving (part of) society lots of credit for my firm believe it can and will (for the most part) deal with the facts such as they present themselves when the time should arrive. On the other hand we're having a discussion about a topic that would have been all but unthinkable a mere twenty years ago. Who's to say how people fifty years from now think about it?  

[coco1997]

On the other hand we're having a discussion about a topic that would have been all but unthinkable a mere twenty years ago. Who's to say how people fifty years from now think about it?  
 

Very good point.

I figured you'd mention the Craig-Not-Bond nonsense, but one must concede that skin color is a bit more contentious an issue than blonde hair.

Admittedly, I hadn't read through every post in this thread, but I did graze most of it and hadn't seen anyone pose the same question I had. But since we're discussing Idris Elba as the next Bond--who would be too old to play Bond once Craig is gone, regardless--I figured the question was whether a black Bond would be accepted within the next decade or so, or however long it ends up being before Craig's contract is up and EON is scrambling to decide where to go next.

The only way I see a black Bond being accepted by the general public is if EON undertakes a wholesale reboot of the character, which, given that the first actual reboot in the franchise occurred less than a decade ago, probably won't happen any time soon.

[Dustin]

I really think the Elba talk is just that, a clever publicity stunt to capture some headlines during SKYFALL's phenomenal run; perhaps on top of a future role for Elba as either villain, fellow 00 or Felix Leiter Mk II. Apart from that, no, don't see Elba has any chance of landing the 007 role.

 

On CraigBond/CraigNotBond I think Craig has helped focus Eon as well as audiences on what Bond is about: personal endurance and resilience in the face of enormous odds against, physical violence, physical attraction, sex. And - strange as it may seem (and contrary to what some 'experts' misinterpret into the character for their own means) - genuine, honest emotion, too. Craig has brought forward the interpretation of "Bond, James Bond" by at least two decades. Also - perhaps especially - by the 'classic' traits he lacked: his Bond isn't charming the pants off the ladies. And amid the outcry this shocking lack entailed we suddenly become aware that Fleming's Bond wasn't from the Roger-Moore-School-of-Seduction either, preferring the direct approach in general. Craig has helped getting many ideas about that cultural icon called Bond straight again, getting rid of excess fat and contrived baggage. Did his casting open doors to further possibilities? I'm sure it did. I used to be a die-hard Fleming buff myself and have to admit getting Craig on my plate made me reconsider many previous conceptions about Bond.

 

That said I still remain cautiously sceptic about a non-Caucasian Bond (this isn't really confined to 'black' actors either) in the near future. One page ago there is a fellow CBner - apparently non-Caucasian himself - who opposes the idea, and I'm sure he isn't the only one. And not for any 'racist' reasons either (though of course racists are more likely to oppose the idea; alas, I'm not addressing such people. Neither is it possible to talk sense into these creatures on the Interweb, nor do I waste my precious time with such pointless rubbish). Frankly, how could the casting of Idris Elba (or any generously gifted and talented yet-to-be-born black actor in the near future) currently be seen as anything but ridiculous stunt casting? Our pages and the better part of print media would be full of accusations about caving in to the 'black/ethno trend'. And wouldn't there be a grain of truth in even the most biased, most debased, demented drunken slur? 

 

Yes, it would. No doubt about it.

 

Having anything but a 'white' actor (I use the quotation marks here because up to the 20th century any people outside Europe - including for some strange reason Britain and North America here - could frequently be termed 'black') would call for a major reboot. Meaning in effect a break of four to ten years. But that's not all, you'd also have to have the absolute PERFECT actor to take over, more British than cucumber sandwiches, brown sauce and fish&chips, more semi-aristocratic than the real Bergbattens in Buckingham Palace, more civilised than Winchester and Eton (if that's your idea of civilisation, that is). It would have to be a guy who everybody thinks "just hast to be Bond someday". And then you'd have to try and avoid the Brosnan curse...

 

 

Way to go...

 

 

No, I really think we are still decades away from such. The difference is, I'm not averse to it any more, not at all. 

[AMC Hornet]

Just watched 'Prometheus' on video, so I've seen Elba in action. Good looking and talented, aye, but not quite right for Bond.

 

Colin Salmon would have been right for Bond, for all the reasons Dustin listed in his last paragraph above, but they'd have had to make him a little less metro than his Robinson character.

 

An Afrophile friend of mine pointed out that the difficulty in making any secret agent black in a European post cold-war setting is that he'd be too conspicuous to move among the Germans and Russians - or even Asians, who call Caucasians 'ghosts' and can have as much difficulty differentiating us as some white people have telling them apart.

 

The counter-argument, of course, is that Europe is no longer Caucasian-centric, as all races move about the world and people everywhere have become accustomed to seeing cultural diversity. Okay, point taken.

 

What happens will happen, and by the time it does we will be ready for it.

[hoagy]

If there's a remake of Black Beauty, about the horse, how about using a paint, or a Palomino, or a White Arabian horse ?  Why not ?  How about remaking The Natural with a lady playing the part of Roy Hobbes, professional baseball player extraordinaire ?  How about Moby Dick with a Norwhal ?  A Killer Whale ?  A turtle ?  How about remaking Roots with white people, Asians and Hispanics ?  Django Unchained with a white girl taking the lead ?

[Dustin]

hoagy, I just suggest you read the four or five previous pages, we've been through all of that before. I think since roughly page four the general discussion has left these examples somewhere behind.   

[Dustin]

Just watched 'Prometheus' on video, so I've seen Elba in action. Good looking and talented, aye, but not quite right for Bond.

 

Colin Salmon would have been right for Bond, for all the reasons Dustin listed in his last paragraph above, but they'd have had to make him a little less metro than his Robinson character.

 

Yes, Salmon would have raised the same question, only from a different angle. Much too early for both of them.

 

 

An Afrophile friend of mine pointed out that the difficulty in making any secret agent black in a European post cold-war setting is that he'd be too conspicuous to move among the Germans and Russians - or even Asians, who call Caucasians 'ghosts' and can have as much difficulty differentiating us as some white people have telling them apart.

 

Absolutely right, from an operational POV the use of a black agent in - roughly - Europe prior to the turn of the century would have been risky (though supposedly both sides - East and West - had numerous active 'black' field agents as early as the 1960s running in this region). Borders never were the kind of hermetically closed setups the East-Germans tried to turn them into. Or the kind current racists would prefer to preserve their specific brand of lunacy. Borders in fact thrive on unexpected/unwanted/forbidden exchange, as anybody living close to one can tell us.    

 

 

The counter-argument, of course, is that Europe is no longer Caucasian-centric, as all races move about the world and people everywhere have become accustomed to seeing cultural diversity. Okay, point taken.

 

Try imagining a world thirty years from now. Chances are whatever we come up with will not be what reality has in store for us. Most of what shapes our current attitudes, beliefs and preferences wouldn't have been thinkable - let alone 'realistic' - a mere 13 years ago. The planet has become much smaller than we used to think, and the only thing we can assume with any degree of certainty is that it will probably become an even smaller place within the near future. Whether we like this development or not is entirely beside the point. It's of no consequence if this appeals to us or not, future generations won't bother. Won't perhaps even grasp what the whole whining was about at the time. With this in mind I don't care much either way what future Bonds may be like, who will be cast and what will be the themes of Bond films post 2030 or so.   

 

 

 

 

 

What happens will happen, and by the time it does we will be ready for it.

 

Indeed.

[Sir Godfrey]

Idris Elba ? I prefer the return of Roger Moore...

[quantumofsolace]

Male. British(the actor does not have to be). 25 to 55.

If the films are set in today's world then nothing else is relevant

[jamie00007]

Skyfall cannot have had a black actor and thats proof enough for me about why Bond should always be white. An old black aristocratic British family with an estate in Scotland? Unlikely,

[S K Y F A L L]

http://www.itn.co.uk...es-bond-rumours

 

Idris Elba on Luther and those James Bond rumours

Report by Lisa Hartle, Video by Genelle Aldred

Wed 27 Mar 2013 17:18

[Germanlady]

Apart from him being black and having all the characteristics like voice etc. I fail to see, what makes him special. There is nothing that lasts in your mind about him. He doesn't even look great or has charisma, that I can see. So  of all the black actors out there, why him? Did he advocate himself truly into beng considered. Seriously? And why would we consider a black guy for Bond? Just to prove, that we are all so utterly non racist? He is just not right, that's all.

[SecretAgentFan]

You haven´t seen him in THE WIRE, I suppose? He is absolutely charismatic, a marvelous actor and has everything you would want in a black actor - if he were to play James Bond. Which he isn´t.

[Bill]

I've seen Idris Elba in Luther and Thor.  Can't quite see him as 007. 

[quantumofsolace]

guardian mar 28 2013

 

You're definitely going to be the next James Bond, I heard.

Who?

James Bond.

I'm not recollecting who that is.

Naomie Harris named you as the person she wants to be James Bond after Daniel Craig. She's Moneypenny now. It sounds all sewn up.

Naomie Harris I know. James Bond I'm still struggling with. [World's longest pause] No, it's a massive rumour. That's all it is, honestly. I'd be screaming it from the rooftops of my council flat in east London if I got James Bond, but it's just a rumour.

 

 

http://www.guardian....ndela-film-best

[Odd Jobbies]

 I'd be screaming it from the rooftops of my council flat in east London if I got James Bond, but it's just a rumour.

 

You'd think he could afford to get on the housing ladder by now  

[S K Y F A L L]

The Queen Mingles With Idris Elba, Daniel Craig At British Film Celebration

 

What Idris and Daniel are hanging out with the Queen now, surprised we haven't gotten any new rumors from this. 

[SecretAgentFan]

Hey, Kenneth Branagh was there, too. Will he direct?

 

But, seriously, folks - although the Elba rumor will remain a rumor - he would be great. Watch "The Wire".

[Odd Jobbies]

Hey, Kenneth Branagh was there, too. Will he direct?

 

But, seriously, folks - although the Elba rumor will remain a rumor - he would be great. Watch "The Wire".

 

Elba would make an excellent foe for Craig and although i'd like to see them do better than Branagh, he's a very 'Eonian' choice for director; he's proved he can do action with Thor (which IMO was OK, but not great - just look at the Avengers to see how it should be done) and he's obviously recognised as a through and through 'thesp', so he also ticks the box for the dramatic direction they've taken.

 

Elba didn't have much to do, but was still pretty solid in Thor, so i can imagine Branagh wanting to utilise him more as a Bond villain.

[SecretAgentFan]

If Branagh directs he might certainly turn up in the cast as well (see "Jack Ryan").

 

And I would not mind that at all.

[Odd Jobbies]

If Branagh directs he might certainly turn up in the cast as well (see "Jack Ryan").

 

And I would not mind that at all.

 

Me neither, the guy's a fine actor. I guess it's fair to wait and see how his Jack Ryan turns out before making a real judgement about his directorial skills. So far his movies are pretty workman-like (which until late has been exactly the type Eon have gone for).

 

It's hard to forget the mess that was his Frankenstein, but Thor shows him on the way to making amends, so Ryan could certainly maintain that upward trajectory - lets hope so!

Edited by Odd Jobbies, 08 April 2013 - 03:15 PM.

[SecretAgentFan]

Workmanlike? HENRY V, DEAD AGAIN, MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING, PETER´S FRIENDS and so on prove otherwise IMO.

 

I also love his FRANKENSTEIN - which probably makes me very unreliable for you ;-)

[Odd Jobbies]

I also love his FRANKENSTEIN - which probably makes me very unreliable for you ;-)

 

Indeed

 

But of course you are right; the films you listed (except the last:) are all genuinely good movies.

 

If i can be more precise, i think it's the Genre movies, such as your beloved Frankenstein (sorry, can't resist winding you up a bit on that one:) and Thor which to my mind he directs very competently (in the latter case), but without anything that makes it stand out from the legions of other genre movies. He gets the job done.

 

Whether or mot he does Bond24 i hope Ryan has that extra 'oomf' and inspiration that Avengers and The Dark Knight have shown, since coupled with his skill for narrative and performance exhibited in the movies you listed he'd be an exciting genre director (and a great Bond director). But i'm 50/50 on whether that'll happen.

 

Love him or hate him, Nolan's films are iconic and hard to forget and that's not something i'd say of Thor. 

Edited by Odd Jobbies, 08 April 2013 - 08:58 PM.