47 replies to this topic

[MattofSteel]

Self explanatory. An October time-filler to distract us from the reality of just how close far away the release of Skyfall is.

Our positions are entrenched. Our opinions purely subjective. Our rationals and attitudes thoroughly stubborn.

I'll start. David Arnold's Bond music is awesome.

[Chief of SIS]

I highly approve of this. Since you are making an entire topic of this and if Sharky has accepted the proposition, I suggest like any good debate, topics and perimeters should be established decided between yourselves and moderated through the members.

[plankattack]

At its best it's terrific, at its worst, repetitive.

I definitely think Arnold got better over his tenure (and I'm sure he'll return to the series). I know many on the forum decry the lack of the Bond theme in CR and QoS, but I actually think that gave Arnold room to breathe, because those two scores are IMHO, in the top 3rd of the series.

I feel the theme weighed down both TND and DAD, the default for any moment was just blasting it out loud. And I get how important the theme is, but unlike Barry, I don't think Arnold has yet mastered tweaking it and using subtley (OHMSS the greatest example of using snippets to anchor a unique piece of music). That being said, his work in TWINE and CR mixing the title song into the soundtrack is as good as YOLT, LALD, TWMTGG - it's a pet peeve of mine when the theme song is a separate entity to the soundtrack, and I feel that has put Arnold in a box - TND, DAD, and QoS (I still can't find anything from Jack Black's title in the soundtrack).

I was underwhelmed at first, but by 2008, I felt Arnold had done a good job being 'of the series' and there is a small part of me that will miss him in SF. I think there is some pressure on Newman - non-Barry's are a mixed bag to me - Martin and Hamlish were great additions, but I wasn't convinced by either Kamen, FYEO, or GE.

[MattofSteel]

I highly approve of this. Since you are making an entire topic of this and if Sharky has accepted the proposition, I suggest like any good debate, topics and perimeters should be established decided between yourselves and moderated through the members.

Shark is yet to accept if only because his account is set not to receive PM's, and I'm not sure if he's checked the other thread since I gestated the idea. I'd have no problem establishing parameters and an itinerary.

Here's what's going to happen: Shark will defend his opinion with intricately technical musical knowledge, and I will scream back at him that "It sounds like John Barry, leave him alone!"

[Chief of SIS]

Here's what's going to happen: Shark will defend his opinion with intricately technical musical knowledge, and I will scream back at him that "It sounds like John Barry, leave him alone!"

It's like you're laying down on your sword before the fight my friend.

[x007AceOfSpades]

QoS (I still can't find anything from Jack Black's title in the soundtrack).

'Pursuit At Port Au Prince' is where you can hear some parts of AWTD in that score track, that's about it as far as I know.

Edited by x007AceOfSpades, 02 October 2012 - 02:43 PM.

[MattofSteel]

Hardly. Perhaps it's just classic misdirection. You see, father, I remember my Art of War.

QoS (I still can't find anything from Jack Black's title in the soundtrack).

'Pursuit At Port Au Prince' is where you can hear some parts of AWTD in that score track, that's about it as far as I know.

Hope this is what you meant.

AWTD is all over the QOS score. It's in Time to Get Out, Oil Fields, multiple places...

[x007AceOfSpades]

Really? I can only hear it in the one I listed. I must be deaf, because I can't hear it in any track besides Pursuit At Port au Prince, and QOS is the one Bond Soundtrack I listen to the most.

[plankattack]

Hardly. Perhaps it's just classic misdirection. You see, father, I remember my Art of War.

QoS (I still can't find anything from Jack Black's title in the soundtrack).

'Pursuit At Port Au Prince' is where you can hear some parts of AWTD in that score track, that's about it as far as I know. Hope this is what you meant.

AWTD is all over the QOS score. It's in Time to Get Out, Oil Fields, multiple places...

Wow, I really enjoy the QoS soundtrack and yet I completely miss it!!!! I'll give it a re-listen and amend my position to TND and DAD as being egregious cases where the title track and soundtrack have no relationship.

It's a personal thing - but I do like them to be integrated. And clearly so does Arnold, as Surrender runs through TND, and in no way do I apportion responsibility to him. I know there are Arnold critics out there (not really me) - it's in his defense that that he's sometimes had half a hand tied behind his back.

[MattofSteel]

Wailing trumpet as the Aston comes out of the tunnel and the policeman says, "....pursuing a grey Aston Martin." Brass hits as Bond's walking out of the elevator after beating the crap out of the MI6 security men. And the 'No Good About Goodbye' riff that pops up everywhere just happens to be syllabic-ally similar to 'Another Way to Die' and isn't musically dissimilar to the (convoluted) melody Keyes and White use to sing it. If you can call it a melody.

[x007AceOfSpades]

Okay, I hear it in 'Time to Get Out', and that's about it. Maybe I need to give it another full play through tonight.

[Gt Munn]

Hardly. Perhaps it's just classic misdirection. You see, father, I remember my Art of War.

QoS (I still can't find anything from Jack Black's title in the soundtrack).

'Pursuit At Port Au Prince' is where you can hear some parts of AWTD in that score track, that's about it as far as I know. Hope this is what you meant.

AWTD is all over the QOS score. It's in Time to Get Out, Oil Fields, multiple places...

Wow, I really enjoy the QoS soundtrack and yet I completely miss it!!!! I'll give it a re-listen and amend my position to TND and DAD as being egregious cases where the title track and soundtrack have no relationship.

It's a personal thing - but I do like them to be integrated. And clearly so does Arnold, as Surrender runs through TND, and in no way do I apportion responsibility to him. I know there are Arnold critics out there (not really me) - it's in his defense that that he's sometimes had half a hand tied behind his back.

In the case of TND, Surrender (the superior song) was expected to be the Bond song up until the very end. Arnold did an amazing job crafting and weaving the theme throughout the score. Barbara and Michael are responsible for yanking it.

In the case of DAD, you must admit that Arnold didn't have much to work with there. However, he did reference the song in some of the early moments of the film (the hover chase sequence). The song does not have much of a theme at all. Do you really feel it would have enhanced the score in any way?

Edited by Gt Munn, 02 October 2012 - 05:43 PM.

[x007AceOfSpades]

Tomorrow Never Dies is my least favorite song, it's bland and Crow's vocals don't exactly make it better (at least in my opinion) Always liked Surrender much more.

[Gt Munn]

Tomorrow Never Dies is my least favorite song, it's bland and Crow's vocals don't exactly make it better (at least in my opinion) Always liked Surrender much more.

I agree. Her voice is scratchy and whiny.

Edited by Gt Munn, 02 October 2012 - 05:47 PM.

[glidrose]

Arnold's a mixed bag for me.

What I like... his mood & location music. Love the YKMN.

What I don't like... he can't write action music. It's noise, plain and simple. Sounds like instruments falling down an empty lift-shaft.

[MattofSteel]

What I don't like... he can't write action music. It's noise, plain and simple. Sounds like instruments falling down an empty lift-shaft.

Couldn't disagree more. Compared to wide swaths of the action music in contemporary cinema, Arnold's is miles above IMO. Melody, drive, narrative. The opposite of noise.

[marktmurphy]

QoS (I still can't find anything from Jack Black's title in the soundtrack).

'Pursuit At Port Au Prince' is where you can hear some parts of AWTD in that score track, that's about it as far as I know.

What's the one where he's in the hotel room looking for stationery? You can hear a verse line there, along the lines of 'Another one with the golden tongue poisoning your fantasy'. Have a listen and sing along!

Also, watch the film. The very last shot of the movie is the necklace in the snow with a single piano note being played over and over. And how does Another Way To Die start and end...?

[MattofSteel]

Yep. It's everywhere.

Wow, this thread has really diverted from its original intent.

[The Shark]

Compared to wide swaths of the action music in contemporary cinema, Arnold's is miles above IMO. Melody, drive, narrative. The opposite of noise.

Arnold's action music for the most part is like a kid with ADD. Its gets caught up on short gestures and orchestral flourishes that catch your attention but don't go anywhere, and feels the need to modulate to a different key every 8 or so bars. Not enough reputation, over-reliance on percussion loops, too many clichés, and no strong overarching design. John Williams's action music is pretty active too (at times balletic), but it's got a harmonic unity and use of the full range of the orchestra that you'll rarely find in Arnold's, which are leaden and lacking in any humour.

It's symptomatic of a middle-aged bloke sitting alone in his studio wearing a hoodie, banging out every orchestral part into a MIDI keyboard, entering them into Sibelius, hearing the sounds played back instantly through GigaStudio, and then letting Nicholas Dodd polish up the rest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hja2ijX6N6w

[Chief of SIS]

A challenger has entered the battle...

[x007AceOfSpades]

QoS (I still can't find anything from Jack Black's title in the soundtrack).

'Pursuit At Port Au Prince' is where you can hear some parts of AWTD in that score track, that's about it as far as I know.

What's the one where he's in the hotel room looking for stationery? You can hear a verse line there, along the lines of 'Another one with the golden tongue poisoning your fantasy'. Have a listen and sing along!

Also, watch the film. The very last shot of the movie is the necklace in the snow with a single piano note being played over and over. And how does Another Way To Die start and end...?

Jesus you're right! Might as well watch the movie tonight too!

Spot on by the way Shark

Edited by x007AceOfSpades, 03 October 2012 - 01:15 AM.

[MattofSteel]

Compared to wide swaths of the action music in contemporary cinema, Arnold's is miles above IMO. Melody, drive, narrative. The opposite of noise.

Arnold's action music for the most part is like a kid with ADD. Its gets caught up on short gestures and orchestral flourishes that catch your attention but don't go anywhere, and feels the need to modulate to a different key every 8 or so bars. Not enough reputation, over-reliance on percussion loops, too many clichés, and no strong overarching design. John Williams's action music is pretty active too (at times balletic), but it's got a harmonic unity and use of the full range of the orchestra that you'll rarely find in Arnold's, which are leaden and lacking in any humour.

It's symptomatic of a middle-aged bloke sitting alone in his studio wearing a hoodie, banging out every orchestral part into a MIDI keyboard, entering them into Sibelius, hearing the sounds played back instantly through GigaStudio, and then letting Nicholas Dodd polish up the rest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hja2ijX6N6w

Apt summary.

I don't see repetition (I assume you meant) as a critical component of action scores. Is it? If the action itself is inconsistent and constantly changing in terms of setting, pace, or context, should the music not reflect that? Take TWINE's 'Pipeline', actually one of the most repetitive action tracks in recent memory.

Or do you actually mean 'reputation' in its true sense, IE, lacking a distinctive, definitive, recognizable voice? Because I hear that constantly. It sounds like Bond.

What does 'leaden' mean? Concerning a lack of humour, I've found Arnold's action pieces perfectly capable of accentuating the necessarily funny action moments - which, at the end of the day, is really any composer's primary responsibility. Enriching the film on the screen.

You've offered a specific criticism, but by all means - offer an alternative that you would feel would have worked better.

And since we're off to such a civil start, I'll choose to ignore the "middle-aged bloke sitting alone in his studio wearing a hoodie" evaluation as if his birth date or dress sense have any relevancy to the man's ability to write a Bond score. I'd forgotten John Barry wrote everything before the age of 30 sitting at a grand piano in Royal Albert Hall, wearing a tuxedo.

[The Shark]

I don't see repetition (I assume you meant) as a critical component of action scores. Is it? If the action itself is inconsistent and constantly changing in terms of setting, pace, or context, should the music not reflect that?

Film music shouldn't be about replicating what's on screen, but be another character or element in the picture. It can provide atmosphere, commentary, counterpoint, overstate or understate, but it should at least be its own distinct entity. Otherwise what you get is aimless Mickey Mousing, which might (just about) serve the action, but makes for a terrible listening experience.

For the ultimate "Bond sound." Look to John Barry and his main film influence Bernard Herrmann. Less is more. Bond music should walk slow but carry a big stick. Arnold's Bond music I argue does the opposite.

Take TWINE's 'Pipeline', actually one of the most repetitive action tracks in recent memory.

If you're talking about that annoying piano figure then yeah, but apart from that, it's more of the same.

I thought this article did a good summary of Arnold's Bond scores:

"Arnold only appears to complement Barry's style. But, he cheats. He simply traces certain figures familiar to Bond fans and injects them like gravy into a Turkey's innards for flavoring. 75% of Arnold's meandering is furious competing voices in overblown orchestral settings set to thundering drumtracks."

http://www.johnbarry...akes_action.php

Or do you actually mean 'reputation' in its true sense, IE, lacking a distinctive, definitive, recognizable voice? Because I hear that constantly. It sounds like Bond.

It sounds like a poor man's John Barry.

What does 'leaden' mean?

I mean his action music is relentlessly dour and lacking colour. Is there anything as witty as "Moonbuggy Chase" in Arnold's Bond scores?

That said, I guess you argue the fault lies with the films and filmmakers.

And since we're off to such a civil start, I'll choose to ignore the "middle-aged bloke sitting alone in his studio wearing a hoodie" evaluation as if his birth date or dress sense have any relevancy to the man's ability to write a Bond score.

Lighten up. It's British humour.

[MattofSteel]

Film music shouldn't be about replicating what's on screen, but be another character or element in the picture. It can provide atmosphere, commentary, counterpoint, overstate or understate, but it should at least be its own distinct entity. Otherwise what you get is aimless Mickey Mousing, which might (just about) serve the action, but makes for a terrible listening experience.

I disagree fundamentally, despite having (probably) similar tastes. I adore listening to film music on its own, but I consider that enjoyment purely a bonus to the experience - its first, and only priority, is serving the image onscreen.

Now, I want to emphasize my duality about this. I'm probably as much a cheerleader for listening to OSTs on their own as you are. Classical film scores dwarf contemporary ones for this reason alone. And there's nothing more fundamentally disappointing to me than a score you can't listen to on its own. One of my greatest sitting fears at the moment is that Tom Newman will turn in aphenomenal Skyfall score that absolutely doesn't work as an album.

James Newton Howard's Bourne Legacy effort this past summer was a quintessential example. That's noise. That's tripe. I listen to Arnold's work separate of the films constantly. I hear as much melody in his action tracks and as much depth in his ambient work as any other contemporary film composer.

For the ultimate "Bond sound." Look to John Barry and his main film influence Bernard Herrmann. Less is more. Bond music should walk slow but carry a big stick. Arnold's Bond music I argue does the opposite.

I think I see what you mean, and I don't disagree. But that's more a commentary on how contemporary film scores have changed, no? Is sonic chaos not somewhat a favoured approach, especially within the action genre? I should clarify that I'm not saying Arnold isn't - by times - guilty. I'm saying that in the pantheon of current composers, he's hardly the greatest offender and may actually be, in my opinion, one of the few who actually maintains something of that former approach.

If you're talking about that annoying piano figure then yeah, but apart from that, it's more of the same.

So repetition's fine unless you personally don't care for it, then it's bad?

I thought this article did a good summary of Arnold's Bond scores:

"Arnold only appears to complement Barry's style. But, he cheats. He simply traces certain figures familiar to Bond fans and injects them like gravy into a Turkey's innards for flavoring. 75% of Arnold's meandering is furious competing voices in overblown orchestral settings set to thundering drumtracks."

http://www.johnbarry...akes_action.php

It sounds like a poor man's John Barry.

Of course it does. Every non-Barry Bond score is supposed to sound sounds like a poor man's John Barry.

The goal of any Bond soundtrack is not to be definitive about it. It's to emulate a sound that exists in a simultaneously contemporary and nostalgic way. I happen to believe in the same approach for the films - part of what has me so excited for Skyfall.

If we can't have John Barry, I welcome someone who can emulate him rather expertly. Arnold fits that bill. And let's not forget an all-to-easy-to-ignore reality of the business: how much of Arnold's approach is mandated by people of higher power in the process? Would he like to turn in an absolutely retro or definitively Barry-esque score? I'm sure part of him would. Would the studio music supervisors and the film's producers allow it, considering the tone of the current films and the tastes of the contemporary moviegoing audience? I'm not so sure.

I mean his action music is relentlessly dour and lacking colour. Is there anything as witty as "Moonbuggy Chase" in Arnold's Bond scores?

That said, I guess you argue the fault lies with the films and filmmakers.

Not so much the 'fault' as saying, well, why is Arnold obligated to deliver tracks that are eccentric? I've never particularly enjoyed the Moonbuggy Chase - sequence, or music. It's too whimsical for me. It's an instance where Sean's Bond is ramming himself into what would become Roger's mould, and for me, it's one that's just never worked.

Lighten up. It's British humour.

Oh, I'm lightened. I write comedy for a living. I just didn't want to let you slip a rhetorical sound byte through that had no technical bearing on the discussion. Which is, of course, hypocritical, since I'll no doubt attempt the same in short order. Probably.

[The Shark]

I disagree fundamentally, despite having (probably) similar tastes. I adore listening to film music on its own, but I consider that enjoyment purely a bonus to the experience - its first, and only priority, is serving the image onscreen.

I'd say that it's definitely the first priority, and in some cases the only one (take Gil Melé's score for THE ANDROMEDA STRAIN), but Bond music has a tradition of memorable, concise and distinct soundtrack albums. A generic, meandering mess like "Miami International" breaks from that, and makes for a tedious listening experience.

And note that I said it barely serves the drama on-screen. That cue (or to be more accurate "medley" - since it's made of several cues that segue together in the film) wasn't the only possible outcome for that sequence. Sure, ideas would have come from Martin Campbell (and possibly the producers) in the spotting sessions, but in the end it falls down to the composer, who relies on his instincts and good judgement.

I hear as much melody in his action tracks and as much depth in his ambient work as any other contemporary film composer.

If we're discounting old school folks like John Williams (who's semi-retired and only works for Spielberg) - I'd agree, and that's my problem. He's a bit more interesting than James Newton Howard, Marco Beltrami or the RC gang, but not by much.

I think I see what you mean, and I don't disagree. But that's more a commentary on how contemporary film scores have changed, no? Is sonic chaos not somewhat a favoured approach, especially within the action genre? I should clarify that I'm not saying Arnold isn't - by times - guilty. I'm saying that in the pantheon of current composers, he's hardly the greatest offender and may actually be, in my opinion, one of the few who actually maintains something of that former approach.?

You're right, he's one of the better ones, and I admit that he improved his action scoring technique with QOS. I just don't find contemporary action scores that interesting (which is why I welcome Tom Newman as a Bond composer - he's not an "action composer"). They tend to blur into one for me.

So repetition's fine unless you personally don't care for it, then it's bad?

That's not unreasonable. That said, the piano figure (or as Wikipedia calls it - the "suspense motif") is an exception, not the rule.

Every non-Barry Bond score sounds like a poor man's John Barry.

Since when do Bill Conti or Eric Serra's scores sound like a poor man's John Barry? They both managed to move the Bond sound in a fresh and contemporary direction, without choosing to compromise by having "one foot in the 60s and the other in 90s." (to quote Arnold).

I've never particularly enjoyed the Moonbuggy Chase - sequence, or music. It's too whimsical for me. It's an instance where Sean's Bond is ramming himself into what would become Roger's mould, and for me, it's one that's just never worked.

FWIW, that cue (6M3A) was re-written at Guy Hamilton's request, because the original wasn't light-hearted enough. So you never know.

Here's a great summary on Barry's music by Lukas Kendall at Film Score Monthly - the guy who oversaw the 2003 soundtrack restorations.

Barry understands that the Bond scores are about melody and easily identifiable architectural structures. In their ’60s heyday they were absolutely contemporary, but they are not “pop” scores. They are outrageous but told with a straight face—rather like the films. Look no further than the action cues to see how Barry gets it right and everyone else gets it wrong: His fight cues don’t even score the particular fight—they score the idea of a fight! They are huge but free of clutter, and always melodic. They are the embodiment of “speak softly and carry a big stick,” just like Bond. They never hide behind artifice—each note is what it says it is—but then when Barry wants to, WHAM, he hits you. In contrast, the non-Barry scores emphasize irrelevant pop elements and busy-body action nonsense. The subtlety, glamour and especially melody go out the window. David Arnold has created admirable pastiches of some of Barry’s licks, but too often in the latest Bond films he is reduced to frenetic and therefore meaningless action cues, which seem to be designed, as most “blockbusters” nowadays are, for illiterate teenagers who like wrestling. All of the Bond movies start as intriguing espionage films and end up as action mayhem; they used to take their time falling apart, now they start that way. —L.K.

[glidrose]

What I don't like... he can't write action music. It's noise, plain and simple. Sounds like instruments falling down an empty lift-shaft.

Couldn't disagree more. Compared to wide swaths of the action music in contemporary cinema, Arnold's is miles above IMO. Melody, drive, narrative. The opposite of noise.

That may be so, but compare Arnold's action cues to, ahem, John Barry's. Game set and match. Everything Shark says in response to your post here is spot on. Arnold's action music is noise though I still think TWINE has his best action cues. Some of them are excellent. CR'06 probably has Arnold's worst action cues. Noise. The man cannot structure.

[MattofSteel]

I've never made the case Arnold is better than Barry. Of course he's not. Arnold's Bond music is by definition derivative of Barry's. But in a modern context, Arnold's work is severely under-appreciated. Wonderful as Barry's work is, it wouldn't work on a contemporary film - and vice versa.

It's like complaining a pie isn't as purely wonderful as the apples it's made from. The context isn't the same.

EDIT: Shark, I'll get back to you shortly. Time's a factor today.

[Satorious]

What I don't like... he can't write action music. It's noise, plain and simple. Sounds like instruments falling down an empty lift-shaft.

Couldn't disagree more. Compared to wide swaths of the action music in contemporary cinema, Arnold's is miles above IMO. Melody, drive, narrative. The opposite of noise.

Add me in with the "action falling lift shaft group". He tends to throw in everything but the kitchen sink and thus has very little places left go other than his usual "long drawn-out trumpet chord" or "more noise". Much prefer his slow-build stuff - ala Night at the Opera - which is the best Bond track he's produced in my opinion. Each to their own though!

[Trevelyan 006]

Yeah.. well how about Éric Serra eh Comrades?

Anybody? No..?

Then I'll just be going...

[x007AceOfSpades]

Yeah.. well how about Éric Serra eh Comrades?

Anybody? No..?

Then I'll just be going...

I actually liked his score, felt it went with the film well.