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How about some Quantum love?


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#1 seawolfnyy

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 12:23 PM

Why all the Quantum of Solace hate? I admit that Forster's directing was bad and the title song was not the greatest (if Alicia Keys had sung it entirely by herself it would've been better), but for a film that had an incomplete script it did alright. Daniel Craig was arguably better than he was in Casino Royale and it was interesting to see M as a main character vs. a secondary one. The car chase at the beginning is great as is the plane chase in Bolivia. I think it mainly suffers from trying to do too much in too little a time frame. Had it had a complete script and given a longer running time, I feel Quantum could have been Bond's Dark Knight. But taken for what it is, it's still a good film and certainly better than the crapfest that we got in the Brosnan era.

#2 tdalton

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 04:31 PM

I certainly don't hate Quantum of Solace. I rank it easily within my Top 5 films of the franchise, with it sharing the top spot with Licence to Kill and on occasion The Living Daylights. I thought Forster's direction was quite good for the most part, and the quick-cut editing doesn't bother me nearly as much as the shaky-cam technique employed by Greengrass in the Bourne films. The only real misfires that the film has are the title song, a few pacing issues early in the film (which is a criticism I have ot Casino Royale as well), and the fact that they wasted Stana Katic's talent with a near dialogue-less role that lasted barely a couple of minutes.

#3 Trevelyan 006

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 09:38 PM

Quantum Of Solace is a beautifully shot movie. It feels very fresh and modern. Is it among my favorite Bond movies, no. However, I will give credit where credit is due.

#4 DamnCoffee

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 09:54 PM

The problem with Quantum of Solace isn't what's there. It's what isn't there. Overall, I find it highly enjoyable, but a very flawed film. I know that the writers strike played a massive part in this, and I think the production team did a pretty damn good job of making it up as they went along. I've heard there was a rough script, but nothing else. However, if the film was pushed back to May 2009, (the start of the summer movie season) It would've been brilliant. I do enjoy Marc Forsters direction for most of it, and it has probably the most beautiful cinematography of the series. Daniel Craig is great, as is Olga Kurylenko. That's it. It feels very Bourne inflicted, and there's very little character motivation or plot, and the desert finale is god awful. The thing that makes it so sad, is that everything is there to make a great movie. Brilliant talent, a good director and yet there's just nothing deep or meaningful there. The entire thing looses it's head, and just turns into very bad action (Although I really do enjoy the Sienna Chase more than the Casino Royale Madagascar Chase).

There's some great scenes though. Mathis and Bond on the plane, Mathis' death, Bond finding Fields / Escaping from the Hotel, and the final scene in Moscow remains one of the best scenes in the series, but overall it's a very very weak film, which would've benifited by a delayed release, just so they could get things right.

But, I do still like it, and I admit there's so many better Bond films out there, but for what it is, it's not bad. I just would've prefered a longer, fleshed out film. Ah well, roll on Skyfall!

#5 tdalton

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 10:08 PM

There's some great scenes though. Mathis and Bond on the plane, Mathis' death, Bond finding Fields / Escaping from the Hotel, and the final scene in Moscow remains one of the best scenes in the series, but overall it's a very very weak film, which would've benifited by a delayed release, just so they could get things right.


Agreed on the Mathis and Bond scenes, as well as the scenes with Fields and escaping the hotel. I can't say that I agree on the scenes at the Perla de las Lunas, though. I thought that the ending was done very well (minus the "we had a mutual friend" line, which is very weak), with the mirrored fight sequences between Bond/Greene and Camille/Medrano being possibly the best such fight sequences in the series (certainly miles better thant he mirrored fight sequences featured in the Die Another Day finale). Also, the scene with Bond and Camille right before the escape from the hotel is one of the darkest, and best IMO, scenes in the franchise, where we actually have to see Bond really wrestle with a decision which at first does not appear to have any outcome that could be classified as good.

The one thing that I would have changed about the ending, though, would have been to eliminate the shot of Camille recovering the gun during her fight with Medrano. That would have lent some dramatic weight to Greene's "looks like you've lost another one" line to Bond when he hears the gunshot in the distance. We knew from watching the fight that it was Medrano that had just met his end, but it would have been left very much up in the air without that one shot.

I do agree, though, on the finale in Moscow. Great scene. Ranks right up there with Dalton's interrogation scene in The Living Daylights.

#6 DamnCoffee

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 10:35 PM

I can agree with you on some points, there. I think the mirrored fight scene is leagues better than Die Another Day and, the scene with Bond preparing to shoot Camille, is another gem in an otherwise un-amazing film. I dunno, final major set pieces in Bond tend to be a massive let down, even if the film that preceded it wasn't on par (Casino Royale is brilliant, Venice sequence kills it, Submarine scene in TWINE is one of the dullest action sequences in the series, Die Another Day plane fight is awful) I hope Skyfall breaks this trend.

I think the entire last half an hour of Quantum (minus Moscow) is just pointless. Perla De Las Dunas is a lovely location, but why are they there? Greene wants Water, big deal? Why is he creating a drought? Why did Bond not tell the poor dehydrating villagers, that there's a huge lake half a mile away? I haven't seen Amalric in anything else, but I've heard that he's a fantastic actor. In here he's just wasted. A massive shame, because when the trailers were released he looked great. I just think the movie wasted a whole load of talent. Saying that though, I would love for Forster to have another shot at Bond, without a writers strike looming over the production. I think that was the thing why Quantum of Solace failed, and they had to rush it and make it, rather than risk it not being made at all.

#7 tdalton

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 10:55 PM

I can agree with you on some points, there. I think the mirrored fight scene is leagues better than Die Another Day and, the scene with Bond preparing to shoot Camille, is another gem in an otherwise un-amazing film. I dunno, final major set pieces in Bond tend to be a massive let down, even if the film that preceded it wasn't on par (Casino Royale is brilliant, Venice sequence kills it, Submarine scene in TWINE is one of the dullest action sequences in the series, Die Another Day plane fight is awful) I hope Skyfall breaks this trend.


I agree that those kinds of scenes generally are letdowns, with the examples you list being prime examples. Taken on its own, I like the Venice sequence, but given the context it's supposed to be within, I agree that it destroys the ending of the film. Something more in-line with the novel would have been much more appropriate. I don't think that the Perla de las Lunas inflicts the same damage on the ending of Quantum of Solace that the sinking house inflicts on Casino Royale, though. I like that we get to see Bond at his absolute cruelest during the sequence, with his contemplation about how to keep himself and Camille from perishing in the fire as well as his trip out to the middle of the desert with Greene (which is the cruelest villain death in the series, I think) really giving the finale some great moments.

I think the location itself is quite good, and I like that they didn't fill such a big set like that with multitudes of people fighting it out like we've seen in many previous Bond films, especially ones like The Spy Who Loved Me. It allows the action to remain more intimate, focusing on the emotional arcs of the film up to that point, with Camille's revenge on Medrano as well as culmination of Bond's film-long arc of focusing on the mission and not seeking revenge against Quantum. Could they have done a bit more with the whole thing, though? I think they probably could have, but what's there works quite well, IMO. Maybe the fire that engulfs the hotel could have been put off a bit longer so that there could have been some scenes between the heroes and villains that weren't done with the impending doom of being burned alive surrounding them, but I liked the symbolism behind the fire and thought it contributed quite a bit to the ending.



Greene wants Water, big deal? Why is he creating a drought?


I've always been a fan of the plot. I think it's far more terrifying for an organization like that to steal something that everyone depends on for the sustainment of life than plots like the ones we see in many of the over-the-top Bond films, which just aren't conceivably possible in the real world. The idea of stealing a nation's water supply and then more or less holding it for ransom is pretty terrifying, at least IMO.

Regarding the drought, I thought they did enough to explain it's purpose in the film. It's meant to force Medrano to hire Quantum to provide services, such as water, to the people of Bolivia. If Medrano doesn't, then the people of Bolivia will eventually die and Medrano won't have any people to lead as its new President.

#8 x007AceOfSpades

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 05:54 AM

The problem with Quantum of Solace isn't what's there. It's what isn't there. Overall, I find it highly enjoyable, but a very flawed film. I know that the writers strike played a massive part in this, and I think the production team did a pretty damn good job of making it up as they went along. I've heard there was a rough script, but nothing else. However, if the film was pushed back to May 2009, (the start of the summer movie season) It would've been brilliant. I do enjoy Marc Forsters direction for most of it, and it has probably the most beautiful cinematography of the series. Daniel Craig is great, as is Olga Kurylenko. That's it. It feels very Bourne inflicted, and there's very little character motivation or plot, and the desert finale is god awful. The thing that makes it so sad, is that everything is there to make a great movie. Brilliant talent, a good director and yet there's just nothing deep or meaningful there. The entire thing looses it's head, and just turns into very bad action (Although I really do enjoy the Sienna Chase more than the Casino Royale Madagascar Chase).

There's some great scenes though. Mathis and Bond on the plane, Mathis' death, Bond finding Fields / Escaping from the Hotel, and the final scene in Moscow remains one of the best scenes in the series, but overall it's a very very weak film, which would've benifited by a delayed release, just so they could get things right.

But, I do still like it, and I admit there's so many better Bond films out there, but for what it is, it's not bad. I just would've prefered a longer, fleshed out film. Ah well, roll on Skyfall!


Couldn't agree more with you.

#9 thecasinoroyale

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 09:36 AM

I'll deal out the Quantum love also.

Sure, there are faults, but there are faults with my favourite ever Bond film 'Licence To Kill'. It's easy to overlook them and actually just enjoy the story which doesn't require too much though, and just to buckle up for the ride.

It's got great action sequences, and a pre-title sequence that is my favourite out of all the 22 current films, the characters are easy to get on with, even though they are not the best, they are still easy to point who is doing what and they all click well together.

Fantastic soundtrack (Arnold's best) and another top performance by Craig.

If anything, it just suffered a little with the direction, but that's something personal and some people liked it, it just wans't right for me in a Bond film but I can't knock certain sequences for looking and sounding brilliant like the Perla de las Lunas and Tosca seqences.

It could have been better, but it wasn't, but to that end we thankfully actually got a 007 film at all, and we get a rip-roaring Bond film that can easily sit amongst other top fan favourites rather than stand up to constant comparisions of 'Casino Royale'.

#10 Odd Jobbies

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 12:17 PM

The highly stylised opera scene is one the best in the series.

#11 Henry-Jones-Sr

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 01:07 PM

I'm a big fan of the old Quantum. It's wafer thin, mind you, but it's a real whip-cracker. I disagree that it should have a longer running time (a real bug bear for me). Instead, I'd have preferred it if they had a better written script.

Looks great, beautifully made, excellent cast and characters, striking title sequence.

However, I don't think the opening scene is very good. It's hampered by the fact that all the cars are black and one of the villainous drivers looks like Daniel Craig!

And I hate to drag the subject back up, but the lack of Bond theme is disasterous. When David Arnold was scoring Tomorrow Never Dies, he said the art of scoring a Bond movie is knowing when to let rip with the theme tune. In Quantum Of Solace, this never happened. Not even once. There are moments in QOS when the action surges or climaxes and the scene is begging for the trumpet stabs or swinging middle eight ... instead we get ambience bordering on silence. It's a bad misjudgement.

I've always thought that the theme is Bond's superhero costume. Know what I mean? A Superman film wouldn't be much of a Superman film if Clark Kent never changes out of his office suit. The trumpet stabs at the beginning of the theme are the same as Clark Kent pulling his shirt apart to reveal the Superman 'S'. It's Bond identity!

Apart from that, love Quantum Of Solace.

#12 seawolfnyy

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 02:18 PM

And I hate to drag the subject back up, but the lack of Bond theme is disasterous. When David Arnold was scoring Tomorrow Never Dies, he said the art of scoring a Bond movie is knowing when to let rip with the theme tune. In Quantum Of Solace, this never happened. Not even once. There are moments in QOS when the action surges or climaxes and the scene is begging for the trumpet stabs or swinging middle eight ... instead we get ambience bordering on silence. It's a bad misjudgement.


I do believe that Quantum could've benefited from a better score. I don't really the Bond theme not being there as much seeing as how in the past they would always play it at weird times. I think there was a part in one of the early ones, might've been Dr. No but i could be wrong there, when they play it while he is just leaving his hotel. Personally, I thought they did a great job with the theme in Casino when they teased at a few specific spots before introducing it at the end. Of course, they've also remixed the Bond theme so much that it barely even feels like it at times like the awful one made for TND (hate the Brosnan era).

#13 blueman

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 11:28 PM

Best Bond film since OHMSS. In fact it's that film's long-lost sequel (for Bond, emotionally-speaking). Love how streamlined and thrilleresque it plays out, I keep reading how Craig bashes himself and his writing skills working on it on the fly, but IMHO it's one of the best written films in the series: knows the story it's telling, doesn't insert needless fluff, packs an emotional wallop. Fleming would be proud. (I'm actually gearing up for SF being a bit of a letdown... but we'll see).

#14 DamnCoffee

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 12:05 AM

When David Arnold was scoring Tomorrow Never Dies, he said the art of scoring a Bond movie is knowing when to let rip with the theme tune. In Quantum Of Solace, this never happened. Not even once.



4:45.

Edited by Mharkin, 07 August 2012 - 12:05 AM.


#15 DaveBond21

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 12:30 AM

Best Bond film since OHMSS. In fact it's that film's long-lost sequel (for Bond, emotionally-speaking). Love how streamlined and thrilleresque it plays out, I keep reading how Craig bashes himself and his writing skills working on it on the fly, but IMHO it's one of the best written films in the series: knows the story it's telling, doesn't insert needless fluff, packs an emotional wallop. Fleming would be proud. (I'm actually gearing up for SF being a bit of a letdown... but we'll see).


I don't get the emotional wallop at all. In fact people in the theatre sniggered at Olga's dead family speech in the cave. It was so cliched and also all from a character we didn't really care about.

___________

#16 blueman

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 12:45 AM

Worked for me (thought it was a pretty awesome scene in fact).

Also liked the later scenes with her character and Medrano, and with Bond. One the best female characters in the series IMO, very nicely realized (also very Flemingesque too).

#17 JimmyBond

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 03:48 AM


When David Arnold was scoring Tomorrow Never Dies, he said the art of scoring a Bond movie is knowing when to let rip with the theme tune. In Quantum Of Solace, this never happened. Not even once.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4j3JYznRBI
4:45.



My favorite part of that is about five minutes in. I love how Forster cuts out the sound in favor of letting the score do the talking. Plus we do get a nice variation on the Bond theme while Bond is pulling up to the docks with an unconscious Camille.

Despite your example there, I do get what Henry-Jones Sr. is talking about. There is no single moment in the film (or CR for that matter) where the full original Bond theme is used to underscore the action. It's not an issue with me, I think we get enough of the theme in QoS to satisfy my needs, but I get why other's miss it.

I was a huge supporter of Quantum when it first came out. And I still am. Is the film flawless? Definitely not, I think the first half is too rushed, at times it feels like the non-action sequences are just a means to get us back to the action. And yet it doesn't bother me too much, since I feel QoS has some of the best action sequences in a Bond film since perhaps the 80s.

Edited by JimmyBond, 07 August 2012 - 03:53 AM.


#18 Jim

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 03:57 AM

It entertains me. Not sure I can ask too much more of it.

#19 S K Y F A L L

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 07:09 AM

There is a lot I like about the film but its just easier to list the things I didn't like.

Right from the start of the film I'm in a bad mood because of the missing gun barrel which will forever haunt me.
So the film takes place moments after CR however it looks like our man Bond has lost some muscle, whatever.
I wonder how much better the theme song would have been if it were just Alicia Keys...
The whole scene of Bond dangling from ropes I thought was a little cheesy and I think Bond has a dump look on his face about it.
I thought the airplane stunt was boring and the ending a little weak, and we learn nothing about Quantum besides "we have people everywhere."
Stana Katic had too short a role although see originally auditioned for Strawberry Fields. I now have high hopes this character of hers will return to make up for it.
I also hated the way Bond talked to her, I get the impression Craig is going to start crying or something.
Besides that I really enjoyed the film.
I hope they can bring back Mr. White cause it feels like they abandoned the whole Quantum story line however it would be nice to go back to IMO, I would like closer is all.
I'll never understand why they felt it had to be released right away, perhaps they had hoped to release another film in 2010.

I have t o add Strawberry Fields covered in oil was a great throwback to GF, who didn't enjoy that image?

#20 Odd Jobbies

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 10:45 AM

...doesn't insert needless fluff....


Absolutely right.

#21 Henry-Jones-Sr

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 01:03 PM


When David Arnold was scoring Tomorrow Never Dies, he said the art of scoring a Bond movie is knowing when to let rip with the theme tune. In Quantum Of Solace, this never happened. Not even once.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4j3JYznRBI
4:45.


I'm sorry, but that moment absolutely does not constitute the Bond theme letting rip, especially since it's five piddly seconds long and is similar to that awful arrangement they've been using in the trailers for the three Craig movies.

Going back to what I was saying, the Bond theme doesn't even have to let rip. There's the laid back versions while Bond walks through an airport, or drives, etc., etc. Remember the scene in Tomorrow Never Dies when M briefs Bond in the back of the car? They had the 'vamp' part of the theme swinging away in the background with the occasional brass stab thrown in for good measure. Fantastic. It ladles on oodles of lovely atmosphere and tells the audience "this is Bond, motherf****s!"

Anyway, we could spend the rest of our lives debating the use of the Bond theme in Quantum Of Solace. I just think that if you have what is possibly the greatest movie theme of all time at your disposal, why wouldn't you use it?

#22 Matt_13

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 01:08 PM

I honestly believe that Skyfall will have the side effect of bolstering public opinion on Quantum. It'll become an oddity in the franchise, moreso than it already is, and be viewed as that one off epilogue experience that didn't hit the right notes at the time, but has aged with grace.

#23 Mr_Wint

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 03:13 PM

QOS is bottom 3 for me (together with LTK and DAD). I think it is one of the most boring and uninspiring Bondfilms ever made! But of course, there are a few good things about the film. The PTS is short but sweet. The Bond-Mathis scenes are above average and the locations in "Bolivia" gives the film a somewhat unique feel. I like the line: "I knew your family, sadly, I believe I was the last to see them alive."

#24 Publius

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 07:55 PM

there's very little character motivation or plot,


I disagree with several of your assessments, but this one most strongly. The plot on the villain's end might be fairly straightforward, with only a simple twist (surprise! water in a desert instead of oil), but it's the overall lurking nature of Quantum that is more important. This particular threat is but a taste of what they've been up to, unnoticed until now. Smaller scale operations spread around, but ones that pay big dividends with little risk. True power is true terror. SPECTRE was always more flash and bombast -- Quantum has actually been succeeding without anyone even knowing they exist!

You also have Felix Leiter tangling with CIA corruption, in this case with one of Quantum's many tentacles around the world -- as Bond discovers, they've even patiently and quietly infiltrated the British PM's inner circle.

Meanwhile, Camille, a former Bolivian agent herself, is so consumed by her desire for revenge that she is sleeping with a man she obviously has learned is a sinister international criminal, just to get a shot at the scheming, narcissistic General that murdered her family -- in her, Bond sees a mirror image of what he could become if he lets personal motivations overcome him.

Even M has to grapple with internal bureaucratic resistance and the shortsighted political and economic calculations of her government, when her every instinct is telling her to trust Bond's lead on the matter.

But ultimately, Quantum of Solace is driven by Bond having to balance professional duty with a lust for vengeance (not just on behalf of Vesper, but also M, and eventually Mathis and Fields), and figuring out which is really pulling at him more. Everytime he's accused of the latter, he scoffs and cites the former as his only obsession -- when the reality is a messy mix of the two. And really, either would have been sufficient to propel him so forcefully throughout the events of the movie. A brazen disregard for the letter of the law has been exhibited before by many a patriot and do-gooder, especially when the powers that be have lost any moral high ground.

It's only at the end that Bond finally confirms to us, and M, which he has decided to be defined by: "I never left", followed by the symbolic discarding of the loveknot -- a trinket he may have once regarded as special, but which he has come to see as but one of many, and many to come. Bond will never be devoid of emotion, or of attaching some measure of personal motivation to how he conducts himself as a member of Her Majesty's Secret Service. But he HAS learned how to place those sentiments in proper context, understanding that much larger forces are hard at work to do evil on a much greater scale. And maybe the greatest revenge he can find, the greatest justice he can deliver, is being the best at what he does, a special agent serving Queen & Country.

#25 Major Tallon

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 08:06 PM

Great analysis, Publius!

#26 JimmyBond

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 02:36 AM

Great analysis, Publius!


Echoed. You put my feelings on the flm much better than I ever could.

#27 byline

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 02:56 PM

..., and the fact that they wasted Stana Katic's talent with a near dialogue-less role that lasted barely a couple of minutes.

And yet her scene was, for me, one of the most poignant in the film precisely because she had almost no dialogue. She conveyed everything with her facial expressions and body language, and that impressed me.

#28 seawolfnyy

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 03:48 PM


..., and the fact that they wasted Stana Katic's talent with a near dialogue-less role that lasted barely a couple of minutes.

And yet her scene was, for me, one of the most poignant in the film precisely because she had almost no dialogue. She conveyed everything with her facial expressions and body language, and that impressed me.


yes it was nice, but she was completely wasted. stana katic has got the looks and the talent to be a main Bond girl, but alas she was used for a small one off (wonder if tonia sotiropoulou will suffer the same fate?)

#29 S K Y F A L L

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 02:17 PM

Stana Katic is the reason I started watching 'Castle' and I'm looking forward to the 5th season but I just tell myself she had such a short role in QOS because she'll be back again in another film hopefully.

I also hope they bring back Quantum, tell us more about it, what Bond knows, and Mr. White. At least as a pre title sequence in the future.

#30 Belmont

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 06:07 PM

4 years later and I'm still siding with the camp that finds it a very unsatisfying Bond movie indeed. Despite his considerable talent as a director, I think Marc Forster was a poor choice to helm the film. The man is on record as saying that he wasn't a fan of the Bond films until Casino Royale "humanized" the character, and it shows. Why they picked him given his lack of care for the series' legacy, I'll never understand.

It's also one of the most poorly edited action movies I've ever seen, which was a sad realization as I watched the movie unfold for the first time.




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