254 replies to this topic

[terminus]

I still think we need a top-level summary of the plot so that we know where we're going with this. Otherwise, we're just going to go in every direction at once and we'll have to sift through it all.

Except we're NOT going to go in every direction at once, we're coming up with a character outline - what we're doing is essentially writing a writers guide for people who end up writing installments to take their tips from. Nothing more, nothing less.

And that's a LOT of information, I did pyschology at Uni for a bit so I understan what you're saying and I agree with your concepts - but maybe you could summarise it into a shorter paragraph for everyone else?

[coco1997]

I like the idea of a younger M, perhaps one as young if not younger than Bond himself. We can really shake up the dynamic this way. The female M act has worn quite thin.

[007jamesbond]

so how do you make this character outline? we need some serious discussion! And for M, he should be younger than the one fleming created. Around the age of Bond but at the least 10 years older in his early 40s. I dont care if he is a NAvy officer or not,just someone fresh

Edited by 007jamesbond, 22 July 2011 - 03:16 AM.

[Captain Tightpants]

And that's a LOT of information, I did pyschology at Uni for a bit so I understan what you're saying and I agree with your concepts - but maybe you could summarise it into a shorter paragraph for everyone else?

Okay, basically the Myers-Briggs Typology Index - the MBTI - seeks to classify a person's personality into one of sixteen categories. It does this by deciding which direction they lean towards on one of four sliding scales: intoversion and extroversion, sensing and intuition, thinking and feeling, and finally, judgement and perception. These four scales show who they interact with others, how they make decisions, how they process information, and how they experience the world around them. Once all four scales have been settled, the subject ends up with a four-letter code. This code is assigned to a particular personality type.

In the case of James Bond, he is an ENTJ: he is extroverted, which means he is outward-looking and seeks the company of others; he uses his intuition, which means he makes decisions based on a hunch; he is a thinker, which means he processes information through logic and reason rather than emotion; and he judges, which means he prefers definitive solutions to probelms instead of "keeping his options open".

ENTJs are characterised by a strong will and fierce independence. They are goal-oriented, and very realistic about long-term prospects. They are resourceful and take charge when they feel a situation is getting out of control - but at the same time, they have trouble investing their emotions in a situation to the extent that they appear to be aloof and insensitive. They are confident and assertive, but may be unaffected by criticism, which can make them appear to be arrogant or too controlling. They may come into particular conflict with people who rely on feeling their way through a situation. This, I think, is most representative of Bond (though I will be happy to listen to arguments for other personality types under MBTI). Margaret Thatcher, Napoleon Bonaparte, Hillary Clinton and Bill Gates are all held up as examples of ENTJs.

Is that better?

[007jamesbond]

how about the other charactes beside Bond, like Miss.Moneypenny, Q, Bill Tanner, Felix Leiter, Rene MAthis? And also the main villian, and his henchman, and the Bond girl(s). Let start some discussion!

[Captain Tightpants]

Hold your horses - we need to understand Bond before we start on the other characters. And we probably can't do the villain without knowing what the plot might be, because we're absolutely going to need to know what the villain wants.

[terminus]

Much, CT. Thankyou. I'd be happy to consider that the directive for Bond's basic personality template:

In the case of James Bond, he is an ENTJ: he is extroverted, which means he is outward-looking and seeks the company of others; he uses his intuition, which means he makes decisions based on a hunch; he is a thinker, which means he processes information through logic and reason rather than emotion; and he judges, which means he prefers definitive solutions to probelms instead of "keeping his options open".

ENTJs are characterised by a strong will and fierce independence. They are goal-oriented, and very realistic about long-term prospects. They are resourceful and take charge when they feel a situation is getting out of control - but at the same time, they have trouble investing their emotions in a situation to the extent that they appear to be aloof and insensitive. They are confident and assertive, but may be unaffected by criticism, which can make them appear to be arrogant or too controlling. They may come into particular conflict with people who rely on feeling their way through a situation. This, I think, is most representative of Bond (though I will be happy to listen to arguments for other personality types under MBTI). Margaret Thatcher, Napoleon Bonaparte, Hillary Clinton and Bill Gates are all held up as examples of ENTJs.

Now - if we combine that with, perhaps, the concept biography I posted for this new Bond earlier, we have a pretty good grounding for who this new Bond is. But, I'd like to look and talk about fashion - and 'advertising' products - for instance, do we have Bond opt for Brioni suits when required or in the current economic climates is he just as likely to pop into M&S or Next, what sort of alcoholic beverages should this Bond have a preference for. He's probably a pint man - although 'metrosexual' men, like I'd presume Bond would be classified, might be prone to drinking the odd cocktail, it likely wouldn't be his preference. What is his beauty regime? Does he moisturise, does he fake-tan etc etc

Lots still to discuss. Does he, for example, do several pushups and situps and drink strong coffee and scrambled eggs for breakfast?

[007jamesbond]

I think for this Bond, He would do his morning situps and pushup every single day to keep up with his phyiscal health. And as well, one or twice a week he would eat scamble eggs and coffee for his breakfast sometimes only when he is going to the office. As well, maybe include him jogging around a park for a 30 minutes or so, to improve his speed which will also help a lot. And his second pushup and situp when he eventually goes him.
Bond should also have consistance shooting his gun at the gun range, as part of the standard of the 00 section, and manatory phychological and physical evaluation every 5 months or so...
In this Bond, he should only drink occasionally because to keep his health good and strong, it is only use in special occasions.
Depending on the weather and location, Bond fashion should be appropriate for that location, whether it is a suit or shorts.

[Mr. Blofeld]

I don't really see him as a "metro", Beckham-y type -- I see him as a man of few words, who prides himself on his masculinity, but is capable of expressing himself lugubriously, if he is pressed to do so.

I also see the Bond we're developing as a man with possibly the same specific tastes of Fleming-Bond, but none of the prejudices -- he doesn't mind working with people of other races, genders, sexual orientations, etc. It might be helpful, in this regard, to possibly make a close colleague or associate (possibly Felix Leiter) either a minority or gay, in this continuity; it would show that this Bond does not have the same hang-ups his creator did, and, thus, that he is a hardened action hero anyone can admire and aspire to be.

[terminus]

I think for this Bond, He would do his morning situps and pushup every single day to keep up with his phyiscal health. And as well, one or twice a week he would eat scamble eggs and coffee for his breakfast sometimes only when he is going to the office. As well, maybe include him jogging around a park for a 30 minutes or so, to improve his speed which will also help a lot. And his second pushup and situp when he eventually goes him.
Bond should also have consistance shooting his gun at the gun range, as part of the standard of the 00 section, and manatory phychological and physical evaluation every 5 months or so...
In this Bond, he should only drink occasionally because to keep his health good and strong, it is only use in special occasions.
Depending on the weather and location, Bond fashion should be appropriate for that location, whether it is a suit or shorts.

Agreed - this is a Bond that knows the value of good nutrition and a proper diet as opposed to eating the luxurious foods ninety percent of the time. He's the sort of person who'd be up at the crack of dawn, doing a jog round the park before going to the gym and cardio/weights and then spending the morning on the firing range and brushing up on his global knowledge by doing intensive courses organised by M for all of his three (think we'll go with three 00 agents, like Fleming originally did). An afternoon doing paperwork, the odd evening duty shift as duty officer, but evenings to himself - out at trendy bars and nightclubs, seducing women, seeking solace in their arms for the deaths of all the people he didn't save.

I don't really see him as a "metro", Beckham-y type -- I see him as a man of few words, who prides himself on his masculinity, but is capable of expressing himself lugubriously, if he is pressed to do so.

I also see the Bond we're developing as a man with possibly the same specific tastes of Fleming-Bond, but none of the prejudices -- he doesn't mind working with people of other races, genders, sexual orientations, etc. It might be helpful, in this regard, to possibly make a close colleague or associate (possibly Felix Leiter) either a minority or gay, in this continuity; it would show that this Bond does not have the same hang-ups his creator did, and, thus, that he is a hardened action hero anyone can admire and aspire to be.

I agree largely with what you're saying - I didn't mean 'metro' in a Beckham-y type, but one that isn't afraid to indulge in using some of the beauty products and the metro clothing that is avaliable. He's a modern man - he's a bit of a chameleon appearance wise, he can wear anything and blend in.

One of the things I've wanted to do for a while is to throw Bond into a situation that allows us to explore gay culture in the same way that LALD explored afro-american culture in the fifties/sixties. Making Felix so alike Bond in virtual every way - with the only notable divergence being their sexualities and nationalities, would be a way to partially explore that - but am sure we could figure out a way to throw Bond into the gay culture to really explore the contrasts to the original version of the character (I did throw Bond into a story with a sequence set in Manchester's gay district in a story abotu five years ago, but never finished it - and explored it in the first Alec North short too, albeit not with Bond)

[007jamesbond]

Is there anything need to talk about Bond? I think we cover a lot of info

[Mr. Blofeld]

One of the things I've wanted to do for a while is to throw Bond into a situation that allows us to explore gay culture in the same way that LALD explored afro-american culture in the fifties/sixties. Making Felix so alike Bond in virtual every way - with the only notable divergence being their sexualities and nationalities, would be a way to partially explore that - but am sure we could figure out a way to throw Bond into the gay culture to really explore the contrasts to the original version of the character (I did throw Bond into a story with a sequence set in Manchester's gay district in a story abotu five years ago, but never finished it - and explored it in the first Alec North short too, albeit not with Bond)

Do you mean, a Bond during the Stonewall era, or a modern Bond exploring modern gay culture? It could be interesting, yes, but only if we don't resort to the insulting stereotypes LALD the novel employed -- maybe something more like LALD the movie, except there's no gigantic conspiracy amongst a minority group?

[Captain Tightpants]

What about Bond's education? Did he go straight from high school into the Navy, or did he spend time at university? Because I was thinking about how an ENTJ might see the world, and I came up with the following: after high school, Bond was accepted by the London School of Economics. There, he studied mathematics and economics. This is because Bond does not see the world in black and white, but in terms or order and chaos. Mathematics and economics seek to impose order through logic. He may have also spent some time studying drama (but never seriously pursuing it), particularly improvisational theatre. This would help him immensely when doing undercover work. After graduating at the age of twenty-two, he enlisted in the Royal Marines before joining the Special Boat Service at twenty-five, and military intelligence at thirty. At some point, he was discreetly moved into the Double-Oh Section and has spent the past four years as a Double-Oh.

[terminus]

Do you mean, a Bond during the Stonewall era, or a modern Bond exploring modern gay culture? It could be interesting, yes, but only if we don't resort to the insulting stereotypes LALD the novel employed -- maybe something more like LALD the movie, except there's no gigantic conspiracy amongst a minority group?

A modern Bond exploring modern gay culture - of course, we wouldn't resort to the insulting stereotypes that LALD employed, just have some of the action take place in, perhaps, Manchester within the 'Gay Village' and have one of the characters, perhaps one of our heroes - such as Felix - as well as one of our villains/henchmen be homosexual/bisexual, to provide a contrast to the hero, showcasing the positive and the ugly sides of gay culture in one foul swoop.

What about Bond's education? Did he go straight from high school into the Navy, or did he spend time at university? Because I was thinking about how an ENTJ might see the world, and I came up with the following: after high school, Bond was accepted by the London School of Economics. There, he studied mathematics and economics. This is because Bond does not see the world in black and white, but in terms or order and chaos. Mathematics and economics seek to impose order through logic. He may have also spent some time studying drama (but never seriously pursuing it), particularly improvisational theatre. This would help him immensely when doing undercover work. After graduating at the age of twenty-two, he enlisted in the Royal Marines before joining the Special Boat Service at twenty-five, and military intelligence at thirty. At some point, he was discreetly moved into the Double-Oh Section and has spent the past four years as a Double-Oh.

Sounds good to me, CT.

I'll bring all of the stuff we've discussed about Bond together into one post so it can be read over and then cemented into place.

[007jamesbond]

How about Bond birthplace, his parents, Aunt and Uncle. DO we use the same detail that Fleming did or we made a completely new background for him. DO his parent die in a climbing accident? Does Bond get expelled from Eton?
Bond should also have judo training sometime in high school and U

Also how about some of Bond skills and qualification like langua
For example is Bond specialize in hand to hand combat, a very skilled gunman, maybe a marksman? or a sniper? He knows multiple languages common against terrorism like Arabic, French, German, Chinese, etc

Edited by 007jamesbond, 23 July 2011 - 01:50 AM.

[terminus]

How about Bond birthplace, his parents, Aunt and Uncle. DO we use the same detail that Fleming did or we made a completely new background for him. DO his parent die in a climbing accident? Does Bond get expelled from Eton?
Bond should also have judo training sometime in high school and U

Also how about some of Bond skills and qualification like langua
For example is Bond specialize in hand to hand combat, a very skilled gunman, maybe a marksman? or a sniper? He knows multiple languages common against terrorism like Arabic, French, German, Chinese, etc

You must've missed this I postulated before:

Let's say he's in his early thirties, perhaps he was in the actual SBS/SAS/Royal Marines or even simply the Royal Navy, before he gets recruited to the Secret Service. Assuming we keep the fundamental foundation stone of his parents having been killed when he was younger, perhaps we could have him transplanted to live with his Aunt Charmian - not in Pett Bottom - but in the Middle East, making him a natural fit for the present day secret service with his fluency in Arabic and his grounded understanding of middle eastern culture. He's never been married, never been in a 'serious' relationship - he drinks, he doesn't smoke on a routine basis but can/will on a social/operational one, spends frequent hours in the gym to keep his fitness up (I'd imagine the physical requirements of the Double-Oh Section would be pretty extreme, their gym contract heavily subsidised).

I'd say his parents ARE killed - perhaps not in a climbing accident, but something similar and definitely NOT in a terrorism related accident like some might suggest. I'd say that Charmian could be a journalist or a photographer, or even just something as basic as an accountant or other sort of businesswoman. Bond is brought up as an EXPAT in the Middle East (Dubai - doesn't mean he needs to go there in his adventure), speaks fluent Arabic - and understands Middle Eastern culture - but if Charmian is an accountant, perhaps this is what pushes Bond into the economics direction that CT postulated in his discussion.

That said, he'd certainly speak fluent Arabic and, obviously, English - perhaps French too if we swing in the idea that his mother is French Swiss.

I wouldn't say Bond needs to attend Eton, there certainly wouldn't be an 'incident with the maid' anymore or it wouldn't be such a scandal, the secret service is no longer drawn from the countries starch collared elite, but from every walk of life. Bond, as an Expat, would certainly be priveleged enough and not consider himself working class - but he'd never consider himself upper class either - he's comfortably middle class.

Re: fighting style. I'd actually go with a more general gym oriented physical fitness - with weight lifting and plenty of cardio - if he's got a particular fighting style, he'd probably be adept at something such as Krav Magar (the Israeli martial art, perhaps spelled incorrectly) but capable at basic boxing which he might have done in the gym, though the martial art he would have learned from the marines and the SBS/SAS.

[Captain Tightpants]

I think the most important aspect of Bond's character is his relationship with women. My interpretation of Bond is that he has these short flings with various women because he knows that if he has a long-standing relationship, then it places his girlfriend/wife in danger because she can be used to get to him. But no man is an island, so he cannot cut hismelf off completely. Thus, he has short relationships to give him the physical and emotional release he needs, but without endangering an innocent woman. Sex is also an escape from reality, as is his wider lifestyle of fast cars and luxury. Bond is a killer who lives a bachelor's lifestyle as a coping mechanism; he's not a playboy who has to kill people because it's the price of maintaining his lifestyle.

As for his language abilities, Arabic seems to be the new Russian - the language that all spies know. I'd say Spanish and a working knowledge of Mandarin or Cantonese (able to understand it, but not necessarily able to speak it fluently, and unable to read or write it) would help, too. Maybe Russian, for nostalgia's sake (one idea that I'd like to see explored is communism as counter-culture, propagated by Russian youths who never experienced it in the days of the USSR, so it's almost like hippie culture of the 1960s).

[007jamesbond]

yeah I agree. I think we pretty much cover most of Bond character, I not sure what else are we missng?

Edited by 007jamesbond, 23 July 2011 - 03:36 AM.

[Righty007]

I also see the Bond we're developing as a man with possibly the same specific tastes of Fleming-Bond, but none of the prejudices -- he doesn't mind working with people of other races, genders, sexual orientations, etc. It might be helpful, in this regard, to possibly make a close colleague or associate (possibly Felix Leiter) either a minority or gay, in this continuity; it would show that this Bond does not have the same hang-ups his creator did, and, thus, that he is a hardened action hero anyone can admire and aspire to be.

You persist on looking at Fleming's work through the lens of the overly politically correct 21st century. It's a futile exercise considering the fact that fiction must be analyzed with an understanding of the time period it was written in. Prejudices? Hang-ups? Fleming's attitudes and views were no different than any other heterosexual, upper-class male living in the 1950s. Period.

The prospect of making Felix Leiter a homosexual is interesting but it displays a fundamental misunderstanding of the character. Felix Leiter was created as the American version of James Bond. Obviously he's never given anything really cool to do in the novels but that's because James Bond is the star. However, it's understood that Leiter has similar skills, training, etc. He was a ing captain in the Marines!

In other words, making Felix Leiter a homosexual would be a distasteful change that would have the potential to dramatically alter the character thus severely damaging the integrity of the character as created by Fleming. Yes, Jeffrey Wright has proven that Leiter can also realistically be played by an African American but at no point has Wright's Leiter ever suggested to the audience that he is not the American version of James Bond. Making Leiter gay would make him dramatically different than Bond (Bond is a blatant heterosexual and womanizer), which just wouldn't work, in my opinion.

Although if maintaining Fleming's blueprint for his characters is not desirable for this exercise then, by all means, make Leiter gay. But just don't make him a captain in the U.S. Marines because with "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," it just makes zero sense. While Bond novels are oftentimes rooted in fantasy, some realism in respect to international relations, governments, politics, etc. is necessary.

[Captain Tightpants]

Although if maintaining Fleming's blueprint for his characters is not desirable for this exercise then, by all means, make Leiter gay. But just don't make him a captain in the U.S. Marines because with "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," it just makes zero sense. While Bond novels are oftentimes rooted in fantasy, some realism in respect to international relations, governments, politics, etc. is necessary.

"Don't Ask, Don't Tell" only prevents homosexuals from openly serving in the armed forces. Leiter could easily have been a closested homosexual when he was in the Marines, but came out after being discharged. It's only a problem if he's still in the Marines at the time of the story.

I personally would not want to see Leiter re-written as a homosexual. I have nothing against homosexuals, but I feel that Leiter would only be re-written for the sake of having a gay character in the story. And I think that's a bad decision, like employing someone for a position because they are a minority and not because they are the best candidate for the job.

[Righty007]

Although if maintaining Fleming's blueprint for his characters is not desirable for this exercise then, by all means, make Leiter gay. But just don't make him a captain in the U.S. Marines because with "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," it just makes zero sense. While Bond novels are oftentimes rooted in fantasy, some realism in respect to international relations, governments, politics, etc. is necessary.

"Don't Ask, Don't Tell" only prevents homosexuals from openly serving in the armed forces. Leiter could easily have been a closested homosexual when he was in the Marines, but came out after being discharged. It's only a problem if he's still in the Marines at the time of the story.

And this illustrates exactly why it would be a bad idea. Concocting a convoluted backstory for Leiter for the sole purpose of introducing a gay ally for Bond makes little sense. You'd be better off creating an entirely new character.

[Jim]

What is his beauty regime? Does he moisturise, does he fake-tan etc etc

Are you Deaver?
Are you Deaver?
Are you Deaver in disguise?
Are you Deeeaver in disguise?

I mean, writing as an ENTJ, really. He is James Bond. He is moisturised in blood.

You persist on looking at Fleming's work through the lens of the overly politically correct 21st century. It's a futile exercise considering the fact that fiction must be analyzed with an understanding of the time period it was written in. Prejudices? Hang-ups? Fleming's attitudes and views were no different than any other heterosexual, upper-class male living in the 1950s. Period.

Given the criticism Fleming received at the time from heterosexual, upper-class males, I think the assertions a lickle sweeping.

Wouldn't describe Fleming as upper-class. His family was trade, and probably bought their own furniture. Upper-middle at best. A little bit ghastly at the edges.

The prospect of making Felix Leiter a homosexual is interesting but it displays a fundamental misunderstanding of the character.

I always assumed Leiter was homosexual. Little evidence to the contrary.

In other words, making Felix Leiter a homosexual would be a distasteful change that would have the potential to dramatically alter the character thus severely damaging the integrity of the character as created by Fleming.

There's barely any character to "damage" - at best he's a convenient plot device - and as above, always assumed he was anyway. Substantially less interesting / even yet more uninteresting if he isn't.

[007jamesbond]

Just keep Felix Leiter the way Fleming picture him..there is no need to change him at all..But M in the other hand should be changed to maybe a former army colonel or something. Felix Leiter isnt a major character so there is no need to change it

[SamuelKevlar]

Just dropping in (don't think I'll have the time to commit to this project, but never say never) for two things. Firstly to applaud the initiative, which is ambitious, could be great, might be disastrous, but certainly won't fail to be interesting. Discussing the 'make-up' of Bond (psychological or otherwise) and people's diverging opinions on same, is always fascinating.

Secondly, to make one observation.

In other words, making Felix Leiter a homosexual would be a distasteful change that would have the potential to dramatically alter the character thus severely damaging the integrity of the character as created by Fleming. Yes, Jeffrey Wright has proven that Leiter can also realistically be played by an African American but at no point has Wright's Leiter ever suggested to the audience that he is not the American version of James Bond. Making Leiter gay would make him dramatically different than Bond (Bond is a blatant heterosexual and womanizer), which just wouldn't work, in my opinion.

His possible homosexuality in no way stops Felix Leiter from being the American James Bond, although I doubt he is (always struck me as a little more sedentary than 007). Make him a womanizer, a lover of fast living, and a military veteran (incidentally, DADT is coming down in September; depends on how up-to-date you want the story to be), and you're pretty much there. Homosexuality is just that, a sexuality. It's not a personality.

[Righty007]

Just dropping in (don't think I'll have the time to commit to this project, but never say never) for two things. Firstly to applaud the initiative, which is ambitious, could be great, might be disastrous, but certainly won't fail to be interesting. Discussing the 'make-up' of Bond (psychological or otherwise) and people's diverging opinions on same, is always fascinating.

Secondly, to make one observation.

In other words, making Felix Leiter a homosexual would be a distasteful change that would have the potential to dramatically alter the character thus severely damaging the integrity of the character as created by Fleming. Yes, Jeffrey Wright has proven that Leiter can also realistically be played by an African American but at no point has Wright's Leiter ever suggested to the audience that he is not the American version of James Bond. Making Leiter gay would make him dramatically different than Bond (Bond is a blatant heterosexual and womanizer), which just wouldn't work, in my opinion.

Homosexuality is just that, a sexuality. It's not a personality.

It's a sexuality that leads to a certain lifestyle in the same way that heterosexuality leads to a certain lifestyle.

[Jim]

I always assumed Leiter was homosexual. Little evidence to the contrary.

I guess his daughter, Cedar, was the result of artificial insemination into one of Leiter and his life partner's lesbian friends?

No more so than Oscar Wilde's daughter.

Although Cedar is curiously homophobic; probably juvenile rebellion against her dad.

[Dustin]

In other words, making Felix Leiter a homosexual would be a distasteful change that would have the potential to dramatically alter the character thus severely damaging the integrity of the character as created by Fleming. Yes, Jeffrey Wright has proven that Leiter can also realistically be played by an African American but at no point has Wright's Leiter ever suggested to the audience that he is not the American version of James Bond. Making Leiter gay would make him dramatically different than Bond (Bond is a blatant heterosexual and womanizer), which just wouldn't work, in my opinion.

Homosexuality is just that, a sexuality. It's not a personality.

It's a sexuality that leads to a certain lifestyle in the same way that heterosexuality leads to a certain lifestyle.

Can't agree there, not any more. Back in Fleming's day and age it indeed came at the price of hiding/living this sexuality in a mostly hidden environment and very much as an 'outside' trait. But I would argue that at least in Western Europe and some parts of the US today you can find homosexuals living under very similar circumstances as their heterosexual counterparts. They are not all crowding in San Francisco dark rooms, they are to be found in all kinds of social environments, careers and professions. Some marry, some defend monogamy, some adopt children, some may even vote for the teabags. They can be found in a police officer's uniform or a BDU as well as in a hairdresser's attire. Today homosexuality can be lived in many diverse lifestyles and it does not have to be the defining trait of a person any longer.

That said I have to confess I never really thought about Felix Leiter's sexuality. I feel Fleming just didn't mean Leiter to have any sexuality either way. By LALD Leiter has become a jazz connoisseur and contributor to the Amsterdam News, a most unusual occupation for a white former ex-marine and CIA agent concerned with NATO security. It would have made sense if it had been part of some deep cover infiltration job, but the information is given in a way that indicates genuine interest and dedication on Leiter's side. He certainly knows his way around Harlem and given that his CIA job would not have him working on US territory - at least back in the 50's - it surely seems he's part of the fancy-schmancy trendy scene of the 40's and 50's. Could he have been homosexual? Well, he surely never tried to outclass Bond in the womanising department. Nothing ever points to Leiter giving Vesper, Solitaire or Tiffany a long, meaningful look or trying out his charm with them.

Could of course be he's just happily married and never mentions his wife to Bond. Gardner obviously preferred that reading.

[Mr. Blofeld]

It's a sexuality that leads to a certain lifestyle in the same way that heterosexuality leads to a certain lifestyle.

See, that's very, albeit subtly, prejudicial. What makes you say that gay people live a different lifestyle than heterosexuals?

Seriously, if that's all you're disagreeing with (and subsequently bigging up to become the topic of this thread), why didn't you just stay out of it? I proposed it, along with several other points, and terminus agreed that it might be good, proposed some more ideas to that extent which we discussed, etc., etc., and then we moved on. You're the one who made us come back to it. It was never meant to be a big deal; you made it one.

What do you have against him being gay? What do you have against gay people? Do you feel they threaten your masculinity? They don't mine; they shouldn't bother yours.

If you really perceive this as an attack on your beloved Leiter, by all means, perceive it as such... but it shows your true viewpoint in this matter.

[Righty007]

It's a sexuality that leads to a certain lifestyle in the same way that heterosexuality leads to a certain lifestyle.

See, that's very, albeit subtly, prejudicial. What makes you say that gay people live a different lifestyle than heterosexuals?

Seriously, if that's all you're disagreeing with (and subsequently bigging up to become the topic of this thread), why didn't you just stay out of it? I proposed it, along with several other points, and terminus agreed that it might be good, proposed some more ideas to that extent which we discussed, etc., etc., and then we moved on. You're the one who made us come back to it.

If you really perceive this as an attack on your beloved Leiter, by all means, perceive it as such... but it shows your true viewpoint in this matter.

Re-read my initial post again and you'll see I was being very respectful to you for once. I even called the idea interesting. I went on to suggest that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the Leiter character and stated a few reasons for that opinion.

[Dustin]

As I said, I don't think Leiter was supposed to feature any sexuality in particular. Neither can I agree Fleming went out of his way to point at homosexuals. There is Tilly Masterton and her preferences are mainly mentioned to explain her lack of response to Bond's charm and Pussy Galore, whose sex life prior to Bond seems to have been quite a mess. But that's about it, if I recall correctly. Scaramanga has been given a tempting entry in his Secret Service file, but not much is made of it. In the same vein is the Wint/Kidd relationship, it's rumoured in the scene but no living character can attest to it and nothing concrete is given that would support the rumour. I really don't see where Fleming took considerable pains to inform us on deviant sexuality when the plot did not call for it, as with Pussy/Tilly, or it added some colour to the background as with Scaramanga or Wint/Kidd.

Edited by Dustin, 23 July 2011 - 06:59 PM.