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Regarding the new Double O Section


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#1 CasinoKiller

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 04:51 PM

So the official summary on the back cover of Carte Blanche has been revealed, and it states that Bond has been recruited to a 'new' organisation that has authority above that of MI5 and MI6...which seems to imply perhaps that the Double O Section is a seperate agency in the new rebooted series.

Will the fact that Bond is no longer part of THE Secret Service kinda harm the character's iconic status? Or is the 'new' organisation a reference to the fact that the Double O section is a sub-agency WITHIN MI6 that has greater authority than other sections of it?

Also, will M be the head of MI6 overall, or just of the Double O Section, if this whole 'new' organisation thing is true?

#2 Dustin

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 05:27 PM

It's really most intriguing, isn't it? I supposed the new double O's would be regular members of MI6 with just the odd "special" assignment. Now it indeed looks as if there might be a completely secret Secret Intelligence Service (let's call that VSSIS: Very Secret Secret Intelligence Service, shall we?).

Not sure if that is really a realistic option. After all it would call for MI5 and MI6 looking somewhere else whenever the 00 Section turns up on the scene. Not a very likely scenario for any length of time, I should think. After all, such goings-on are what the services are paid for to uncover. Sooner or later there would come a situation where MI5 or MI6 (or both ideally) are looking very hard for that mysterious force that seems to be responsible for all kinds of convenient accidents.

I'd prefer Bond and the 00s to be just people with one page more in their personnel file and nobody but M (and the CoS) knowing their exact number, their names and assignments.

#3 smudge76

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 08:28 PM

I read the unit operates independent of six,five and MOD not has authority over them but i may have read that wrong. Not a bad idea really considering how things are today, plus you have to remember the amount of operations conducted today there is no way the intelligence services could cope so many work is outsourced either to private security companies or other government depts including mil. It does sound like a very intelligent way to update it.

#4 Jump James

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 09:09 PM

Carte Blanche opens with an extract of a letter from Hugh Dalton (Minister of Economics) to Lord Halifax in 1940. This is Bond's new set up, I guess in Carte Blanche. Extract from CB in Bold+Italics

We have got to organize movements in enemy-occupied territory comparable to the Sinn Fein movement in Ireland, to the Chinese Guerillas now operating against Japan, to the Spanish Irregulars who played a notable part in Wellington's campaign or - one might as well admit it - to the organizations which the Nazis themselves have developed so remarkably in almost every country in the world. This "democratic international" must use many different methods, including industrial and military sabotage, labour agitation and strikes, continuous propaganda, terrorist acts against traitors and German leaders, boycotts and riots.

It is quite clear to me that an organization on this scale and of this character is not something which can be handled by the ordinary departmental machinery of either the British Civil Service or the British military machine. What is needed is a new organization to co-ordinate, inspire, control and assist the nationals of the oppressed countries who must themselves be the direct participants. We need absolute secrecy, a certain fanatical enthusiasm, willingness to work with people of different nationalities, complete political reliability. Some of these qualities are certainly to be found in some military officers and, if such men are available, they should undoubtedly be used. But the organization should, in
my view, be entirely independent of the War Office machine.


Read more about Hugh Dalton (Good last name) here http://www.spartacus...uk/TUdalton.htm

Edited by Jump James, 19 May 2011 - 09:11 PM.


#5 MkB

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 01:46 AM

I don't remember the Gardner books very well, but didn't he do something similar late in his series? I seem to remember there was some sort of organization named "MicroGlobe One", wasn't it some sort of apology for the traditional 00 section?

#6 smudge76

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 06:43 AM

Carte Blanche opens with an extract of a letter from Hugh Dalton (Minister of Economics) to Lord Halifax in 1940. This is Bond's new set up, I guess in Carte Blanche. Extract from CB in Bold+Italics

We have got to organize movements in enemy-occupied territory comparable to the Sinn Fein movement in Ireland, to the Chinese Guerillas now operating against Japan, to the Spanish Irregulars who played a notable part in Wellington's campaign or - one might as well admit it - to the organizations which the Nazis themselves have developed so remarkably in almost every country in the world. This "democratic international" must use many different methods, including industrial and military sabotage, labour agitation and strikes, continuous propaganda, terrorist acts against traitors and German leaders, boycotts and riots.

It is quite clear to me that an organization on this scale and of this character is not something which can be handled by the ordinary departmental machinery of either the British Civil Service or the British military machine. What is needed is a new organization to co-ordinate, inspire, control and assist the nationals of the oppressed countries who must themselves be the direct participants. We need absolute secrecy, a certain fanatical enthusiasm, willingness to work with people of different nationalities, complete political reliability. Some of these qualities are certainly to be found in some military officers and, if such men are available, they should undoubtedly be used. But the organization should, in
my view, be entirely independent of the War Office machine.


Read more about Hugh Dalton (Good last name) here http://www.spartacus...uk/TUdalton.htm


This is what lead to the SOE been formed during WW2

#7 CasinoKiller

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 08:23 AM

Hmm. That seems intriguing. However, it does beg the question...what exactly will M's role be? Will he be head of the Secret Service or will he be head of this new organisation Bond is part of? And if the former, then does this mean that M is no longer Bond's direct superior?

Come to think of it, I vaguely seem to recall one of Fleming's books, which mentioned that there was a head of the Double O section...but it was never made clear what his role was, given that M is the one who gives Bond his orders...plus, in the later books, it was more or less established that Bond was the seniormost of the Double O's (which, if you consider the movies, is I suppose a euphemism for saying he's the only one who's survived ;)), so wouldn't that make HIM the de facto 'head' of the section?

Also will the fact that Bond is no longer a member of MI6 per se mean he no longer holds down a desk job on 'off periods'. In the Fleming books, Bond actually spent most of the time as a normal Secret Service employee (or like any Civil Servant for that matter), going through and signing out reports...it was only once or twice a year on average that he was given active field duty where he would be required to actually use his license to kill. Somehow, I doubt that sort of situation will exist here...

#8 Dustin

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 08:54 AM

I very faintly remember a book about the Moonraker film, kind of a background story on some of the production, on Fleming in general and Bond (lit Bond!) in particular. Also bits and pieces about agent training, a "test" for aspiring secret agents. In short the dream of nearly every twelve-year-old boy of that time.

Towards the end there was Bond's Secret Service file, supposedly written by M. M here mentions a certain lack of discipline and a tendency of others to mistake Bond as sensitive due to his good looks. M's resume is that Bond is one of his best agents, able to put his assignment above personal emotions. He ends with the statement Bond has chances to become head of his section soon.

#9 smudge76

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 12:50 PM

I think the 00 section over time will always evolve. Its the nature of things and the way to keep Bond alive. If you had him just as a character piece apart from the hard core fans people would lose interest. Thats why the update with Daniel Craig's era is so successful, a more realistic take on 007 and having him face more real world issues. I think Deaver has maybe hit the right cord in regards to his new structure of the 00 section.

#10 zencat

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 04:05 PM

I don't remember the Gardner books very well, but didn't he do something similar late in his series? I seem to remember there was some sort of organization named "MicroGlobe One", wasn't it some sort of apology for the traditional 00 section?

Actually, in Gardner, there was no 00 section at all. It had been disbanded. This was part of the updating in License Renewed. So Bond was actually never 007 in any of the Gardner books, although M still thought of him as his "blunt instrument" and still called him 007.

MircoGlobe One came late in the series and actually replaced the Secret Service itself. It was sort of a committee of intelligence experts and buracrates. M was on the committee.

#11 CasinoKiller

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 05:56 PM

I very faintly remember a book about the Moonraker film, kind of a background story on some of the production, on Fleming in general and Bond (lit Bond!) in particular. Also bits and pieces about agent training, a "test" for aspiring secret agents. In short the dream of nearly every twelve-year-old boy of that time.

Towards the end there was Bond's Secret Service file, supposedly written by M. M here mentions a certain lack of discipline and a tendency of others to mistake Bond as sensitive due to his good looks. M's resume is that Bond is one of his best agents, able to put his assignment above personal emotions. He ends with the statement Bond has chances to become head of his section soon.


Never heard of this book. But then again, are you sure this dossier thing is canonical to literary Bond (and not just a film tie-in).

That said, Bond NOT being the head of his section is a bit stupid after a point, considering his phenomenal success rate and near-legendary status.

Then again, I'm not sure WHAT being the head of the Double O Section would entail...if it means a desk job co-ordinating other agents, then I can see why Bond would never accept it. In YOLT (the novel, not the film), Bond is actually promoted to the Diplomatic Section of the service (after M feels he's way too burnt out to be a OO anymore), but he hates the idea of not getting dangerous missions (he's back to OO status by the next book).

#12 Dustin

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 06:00 PM

MircoGlobe One came late in the series and actually replaced the Secret Service itself. It was sort of a committee of intelligence experts and buracrates. M was on the committee.


Was that really replacing the entire regular Secret Service? It's so long since I've read it and my impression was it was a sideline.
EDIT: Just leafed through Seafire, 00-section there reemerged as "The Two Zeros", an independent troubleshooter departement answerable only to that Microglobe One committee-thingy. But it reads as if MI6 is still the Secret Intelligence Service responsible for intelligence gathering abroad.

#13 Dustin

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 06:15 PM


I very faintly remember a book about the Moonraker film, kind of a background story on some of the production, on Fleming in general and Bond (lit Bond!) in particular. Also bits and pieces about agent training, a "test" for aspiring secret agents. In short the dream of nearly every twelve-year-old boy of that time.

Towards the end there was Bond's Secret Service file, supposedly written by M. M here mentions a certain lack of discipline and a tendency of others to mistake Bond as sensitive due to his good looks. M's resume is that Bond is one of his best agents, able to put his assignment above personal emotions. He ends with the statement Bond has chances to become head of his section soon.


Never heard of this book. But then again, are you sure this dossier thing is canonical to literary Bond (and not just a film tie-in).

That said, Bond NOT being the head of his section is a bit stupid after a point, considering his phenomenal success rate and near-legendary status.

Then again, I'm not sure WHAT being the head of the Double O Section would entail...if it means a desk job co-ordinating other agents, then I can see why Bond would never accept it. In YOLT (the novel, not the film), Bond is actually promoted to the Diplomatic Section of the service (after M feels he's way too burnt out to be a OO anymore), but he hates the idea of not getting dangerous missions (he's back to OO status by the next book).



No, it surely wasn't canonical. Just a tie-in to promote the film. Shame I can't remember the exact title any more. It consisted of short articles about the space shuttle, the "bonde" cable car to the Sugar Loaf mountain, some background on Fleming and his way to adapt experiences for his books (he came across some kind of mash buggy on Jamaica and that supposedly was his inspiration for Doctor No's dragon) and a lot more.

I remember it particularly for that excerpt from Bond's file and the mention of him supposedly becoming head of (00-)section. It also mentioned Bond having a collection of classical and jazz records and spending his spare time generally in the company of women. Also a love for sailing was mentioned IIRC. Apart from the women none of it was mentioned as such in Fleming's books, although I seem to remember an interview mentioning sailing as a possible interest of Bond.

#14 TheREAL008

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 06:31 PM

NOW I'm feeling uneasy.

To me if you have to reboot the Double O section, then make it continue as part of MI6 BUT keep it exclusive to M, Tanner, and Moneypenny ONLY. It somewhat boggles my mind that there is now a Double O agency with splinter agents that seem to be activated when need be.

So far this seems to be the sole thing that I'm not liking about CB. I know it's small potatoes but it should be a cardinal rule: do NOT take the Double O Section out of MI6. Perhaps it would have been more believable if it were just a tight kept secret of MI6 instead.

#15 Dustin

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 06:36 PM

I'm really not sure if we know enough already to say either way. For all I know the crumbs we came across could be written with little actual knowledge of the book by someone on the editor's staff. We'll have to wait and see.

#16 zencat

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 10:48 PM

I'm really not sure if we know enough already to say either way. For all I know the crumbs we came across could be written with little actual knowledge of the book by someone on the editor's staff. We'll have to wait and see.

Exactly.

And before GoldenEye, Bond always just worked for what was vaguely identified as "British Secret Service" in book and film. I actually thought bringing in MI6 by name and location was fairly radical updating of the Bond universe. It was never clear exactly who he worked for, except that it was headquartered overlooking Regents Park.

I also don't find it hard to believe that an assassins unit would need to be separated from the main intelligence agency in some way to have deniability.

But I really don't think any of this effects the story in the least. He's a spy. His boss is M. He's given a mission. I really don't care how it fits in with the current intelligence structure.

#17 Clements

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 03:14 AM

Come to think of it, I vaguely seem to recall one of Fleming's books, which mentioned that there was a head of the Double O section...but it was never made clear what his role was, given that M is the one who gives Bond his orders...plus, in the later books, it was more or less established that Bond was the seniormost of the Double O's (which, if you consider the movies, is I suppose a euphemism for saying he's the only one who's survived ;)), so wouldn't that make HIM the de facto 'head' of the section?


You're correct. From Chapter 1 of Casino Royale:

"Paris had spoken to London where Clements, the head of Bond's department, had spoken to M, who had smiled wryly and told 'The Broker' to fix it with the Treasury."

In Moonraker, Bond is referred to as "the senior of the three men in the Service who had earned the double 0 number", which is not necessarily the same as being the head of the department but I don' think that particular role was ever mentioned again.

#18 CasinoKiller

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 04:52 AM


Come to think of it, I vaguely seem to recall one of Fleming's books, which mentioned that there was a head of the Double O section...but it was never made clear what his role was, given that M is the one who gives Bond his orders...plus, in the later books, it was more or less established that Bond was the seniormost of the Double O's (which, if you consider the movies, is I suppose a euphemism for saying he's the only one who's survived ;)), so wouldn't that make HIM the de facto 'head' of the section?


You're correct. From Chapter 1 of Casino Royale:

"Paris had spoken to London where Clements, the head of Bond's department, had spoken to M, who had smiled wryly and told 'The Broker' to fix it with the Treasury."

In Moonraker, Bond is referred to as "the senior of the three men in the Service who had earned the double 0 number", which is not necessarily the same as being the head of the department but I don' think that particular role was ever mentioned again.


Yeah, you're right. Thanks for finding the quotes.

Of course, that does beg the question-why do the Double O's need a section chief if they report to M directly. And what exactly would be the function of this section chief? Does he act as a liason of sorts between the agents and M (as implied by the above line)? But Bond and M always dealt with each other directly, which is one of the reasons why they developed such a strong professional, and even personal relationship.

#19 Dustin

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 05:08 AM

I suspect Fleming at the beginning did not make up his mind about the 00 section and their agents in such detail. He obviously had a Secret Service in mind similar to the Naval Intelligence and perhaps a bit of SOE/MI6 as he had experienced them during the war. But that organisational pattern of the Secret Service - country-sections coded with their first letters, stations coded with their first letters and most of them in the capitals of their respective targets, agents numbered with three digits, important postings supposedly with four - all of that came step by step over the years and I doubt Fleming had much of an idea what Clements's purpose in the scheme of things would be beyond being the head of Bond's section.

Edited by Dustin, 26 May 2011 - 05:47 AM.


#20 Peaceful

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 03:07 PM

So the official summary on the back cover of Carte Blanche has been revealed, and it states that Bond has been recruited to a 'new' organisation that has authority above that of MI5 and MI6...which seems to imply perhaps that the Double O Section is a seperate agency in the new rebooted series.

Will the fact that Bond is no longer part of THE Secret Service kinda harm the character's iconic status? Or is the 'new' organisation a reference to the fact that the Double O section is a sub-agency WITHIN MI6 that has greater authority than other sections of it?

Also, will M be the head of MI6 overall, or just of the Double O Section, if this whole 'new' organisation thing is true?

'M' is now the head of the ODG - Overseas Development Group, part of the old school Special Operations Executive.
It's HQ is not at Vauxhall Cross where MI6 is but - at Regent's Park.

#21 007jamesbond

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 04:13 PM


So the official summary on the back cover of Carte Blanche has been revealed, and it states that Bond has been recruited to a 'new' organisation that has authority above that of MI5 and MI6...which seems to imply perhaps that the Double O Section is a seperate agency in the new rebooted series.

Will the fact that Bond is no longer part of THE Secret Service kinda harm the character's iconic status? Or is the 'new' organisation a reference to the fact that the Double O section is a sub-agency WITHIN MI6 that has greater authority than other sections of it?

Also, will M be the head of MI6 overall, or just of the Double O Section, if this whole 'new' organisation thing is true?

'M' is now the head of the ODG - Overseas Development Group, part of the old school Special Operations Executive.
It's HQ is not at Vauxhall Cross where MI6 is but - at Regent's Park.


is it part of Mi6 or totally seperated...so it not called the 00 section

#22 Peaceful

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 05:37 PM



So the official summary on the back cover of Carte Blanche has been revealed, and it states that Bond has been recruited to a 'new' organisation that has authority above that of MI5 and MI6...which seems to imply perhaps that the Double O Section is a seperate agency in the new rebooted series.

Will the fact that Bond is no longer part of THE Secret Service kinda harm the character's iconic status? Or is the 'new' organisation a reference to the fact that the Double O section is a sub-agency WITHIN MI6 that has greater authority than other sections of it?

Also, will M be the head of MI6 overall, or just of the Double O Section, if this whole 'new' organisation thing is true?

'M' is now the head of the ODG - Overseas Development Group, part of the old school Special Operations Executive.
It's HQ is not at Vauxhall Cross where MI6 is but - at Regent's Park.


is it part of Mi6 or totally separated...so it not called the 00 section

It's kinda separate, but not (it doesn't exist). But they have a liaison officer from MI6 that works with them.
Female.
Who Bond fancies.
(Of course he would ;-)
ps her name is *sound of gunshot before Peaceful can reveal name*
Sorry - spoilers lol

#23 007jamesbond

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 05:53 PM

so M is the orginal Fleming Character Sir Miles Messervy or a new character? Do you like that it not part of Mi6 officially? So techically M is not head of Mi6...right?