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#151 Leo R.

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 07:04 AM

Acrostar cue:


Excellent work.

Of course I don't know what your plans are and how much time you have available for this project, but next in the movie follow three wonderful short cues: the Russian art depository, the auction and Bond's flight to India. And of course Vijay's flute ;-)

#152 mattjoes

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 12:39 AM

Great job on both of them.

The very beginning of the Acrostar cue sounded a bit off to me, though, so I checked it and it seems that in your version the strings are playing D E G B G B and repeat. I listened to the original cue on YouTube and I think the right notes are G D' E' F' G' and repeat, with the G lasting twice as long as the other notes. Can't be totally sure, though.

I've got a clean gunbarrel, from the "James Bond in India" documentary in the UE DVD, but it's in very poor quality. I don't really think it's worth placing it (or the edit you did of the Bond theme from Gobinda Attacks, which is ultimately not even that close to the real gunbarrel) before your cue; as a matter of fact, I'd be pretty happy to have just your cue. But I can send you the gunbarrel if you want and it'll be up to you.

#153 gkgyver

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 02:34 AM

Thanks for the pointers, too tired to reply right now.

Octopussy Egg Hunt (Art Depository - Auction):



#154 The Shark

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 02:41 AM

Great job again, though in the film version I can hear trombone and woodwinds and low strings playing very softly, under the sustained violin tremolos in the pseudo-anthemic march at the beginning. The chords are Fm, Bbm, C7 and back to Fm.

#155 Leo R.

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 08:30 AM

Thanks for the pointers, too tired to reply right now.

Octopussy Egg Hunt (Art Depository - Auction):


Completely blown away... This (once again) sounds like the real thing!

I'm sure The Shark is right with his musical remarks, but already you nailed the essence and atmosphere of the cue.

Edited by Leo R., 01 April 2011 - 08:31 AM.


#156 gkgyver

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 03:02 PM

Great job again, though in the film version I can hear trombone and woodwinds and low strings playing very softly, under the sustained violin tremolos in the pseudo-anthemic march at the beginning. The chords are Fm, Bbm, C7 and back to Fm.


You could be right.
I rip the 6 audio channels from DVD and listen to each track to figure out the orchestration as best as possible. I guess it must be really low.
Also, can you hear more orchestra underneath the chromatic Bond theme is the Auction cue? Because I think it may sound a bit naked.

The Indian cue is soooooo tempting.
It has less ethnic percussion than I thought, so I definitely will give it a shot. But what kind of drums are there underneath? Is that a close-mic bass drum?

#157 The Shark

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 04:52 PM


Great job again, though in the film version I can hear trombone and woodwinds and low strings playing very softly, under the sustained violin tremolos in the pseudo-anthemic march at the beginning. The chords are Fm, Bbm, C7 and back to Fm.


You could be right.
I rip the 6 audio channels from DVD and listen to each track to figure out the orchestration as best as possible. I guess it must be really low.
Also, can you hear more orchestra underneath the chromatic Bond theme is the Auction cue? Because I think it may sound a bit naked.


I think yours is pretty accurate. It just needs clarinets doubling the chromatic lines, and flutes doubling the upper melody. Perhaps 2 or 3 horns outlinings the Bond harmonies. Em - C - Em6 w/5 - C.

However, at bar 12 the lower harmonies thickens considerably. Bassoons and double basses come in.

The problem is you've just got the chromatic vamp in octaves, which is too weak. It needs to be in 3rds (E-G repeated, while B-C-C#-C changes).

The solo bassoon plays G#-A-E - F# (sustain) G-F#-E. The harmony in this bar is A minor, with an low E in the bass (double basses playing E (just above the D on the third line of the stave, while celli play their lowest E, or the one an octave above). Violi, horns, harp and winds play out the notes of the Am triad. Particularly C.

After that, it modulates down a whole step to Gm. Except there is no bass drum in this cue, which is what you've added. Just a timpani playing G (lowest line of the stave) quarter notes. It then plays steady low D in the same pattern, when the harmony shifts to Dm.

It's what you call a pedal point.

The Indian cue is soooooo tempting.
It has less ethnic percussion than I thought, so I definitely will give it a shot. But what kind of drums are there underneath? Is that a close-mic bass drum?


I think it's just timpani and tambourine, but the tambourine is most prominent. You need to have samples of both hits and rolls.

But I know what you mean. Where other composers would sweat blood trying to find as many ethnic instruments as they could, Barry just subtly evokes the Indian classical feel through how he uses a standard Western symphony orchestra. Not through augmenting the ensemble.

The key thing about that cue apart from the orchestration, is the rhythmic precision. It can't be wet or too reverby, either in mixing or performance. That's one of my problems with Nic Raine/City of Prague's Bond recordings.

Check your PMs.

#158 gkgyver

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 06:40 PM

I think yours is pretty accurate. It just needs clarinets doubling the chromatic lines, and flutes doubling the upper melody. Perhaps 2 or 3 horns outlinings the Bond harmonies. Em - C - Em6 w/5 - C.

However, at bar 12 the lower harmonies thickens considerably. Bassoons and double basses come in.

The problem is you've just got the chromatic vamp in octaves, which is too weak. It needs to be in 3rds (E-G repeated, while B-C-C#-C changes).

The solo bassoon plays G#-A-E - F# (sustain) G-F#-E. The harmony in this bar is A minor, with an low E in the bass (double basses playing E (just above the D on the third line of the stave, while celli play their lowest E, or the one an octave above). Violi, horns, harp and winds play out the notes of the Am triad. Particularly C.

After that, it modulates down a whole step to Gm. Except there is no bass drum in this cue, which is what you've added. Just a timpani playing G (lowest line of the stave) quarter notes. It then plays steady low D in the same pattern, when the harmony shifts to Dm.


No idea what you mean by bass drum - if you're talking about the auction cue, there is just the timpani playing what you just described. But it doesn't continue the D. It pounds out eight quarter tones and finishes with one hit on D.

Also, there is a flute doubling the violins, maybe I should just make it more prominent.

I don't really hear any horns under the Bond theme, but I'll add them and see how it sounds.

#159 The Shark

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 07:17 PM


I think yours is pretty accurate. It just needs clarinets doubling the chromatic lines, and flutes doubling the upper melody. Perhaps 2 or 3 horns outlinings the Bond harmonies. Em - C - Em6 w/5 - C.

However, at bar 12 the lower harmonies thickens considerably. Bassoons and double basses come in.

The problem is you've just got the chromatic vamp in octaves, which is too weak. It needs to be in 3rds (E-G repeated, while B-C-C#-C changes).

The solo bassoon plays G#-A-E - F# (sustain) G-F#-E. The harmony in this bar is A minor, with an low E in the bass (double basses playing E (just above the D on the third line of the stave, while celli play their lowest E, or the one an octave above). Violi, horns, harp and winds play out the notes of the Am triad. Particularly C.

After that, it modulates down a whole step to Gm. Except there is no bass drum in this cue, which is what you've added. Just a timpani playing G (lowest line of the stave) quarter notes. It then plays steady low D in the same pattern, when the harmony shifts to Dm.


No idea what you mean by bass drum - if you're talking about the auction cue, there is just the timpani playing what you just described. But it doesn't continue the D. It pounds out eight quarter tones and finishes with one hit on D.


Sorry, you're right. You've got timpani, but it should should be playing two D quarter notes after the bar. It's either that I'm hearing or a car door closing. I need to hear a rip.

Also, there is a flute doubling the violins, maybe I should just make it more prominent.


Yep, though I recommend 2 flutes playing in unison.

I don't really hear any horns under the Bond theme, but I'll add them and see how it sounds.


At that dynamic in a film mix, it can be easy to confuse a few horns with woodwinds, since they are more related to them, than any other brass instruments. Hence why they're closest to them on the orchestral score.

#160 gkgyver

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 07:46 PM

It's either that I'm hearing or a car door closing.


:D

Sorry, but that cracked me up! I'm pretty sure it's a car door you're hearing ;)

By the way, when you say for instance "this note should be a D", I know where it's located on the stave - I mean, I can read notes and chords perfectly, I'm just not big at identifying pitches just by listening ;)

Added lower bass octave, clarinet, two french horns playing softly and more wind in the latter part:



#161 mattjoes

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 10:04 PM

Sorry for being late to the party, but the fourth note the french horn plays in the first cue (at about 3 and a half seconds) should be a C instead of a G. Also check the bassline; at 9 seconds (fifth to last note) it should be playing a C instead of what I think is a D#.

Great work otherwise!

#162 The Shark

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 11:28 PM

By the way, when you say for instance "this note should be a D", I know where it's located on the stave - I mean, I can read notes and chords perfectly, I'm just not big at identifying pitches just by listening ;)


Sorry about that. that's stupid of me. The last thing I want come off as is patronising.

The only reason why I said i.e. 'third on line up on the bass clef' was to get the octave right. That D could be a D2 or a D3.

This is the most common system for describing the register. I know it off by heart, and trust me, it works wonders.

So in future, I'll just say great octave G down to D, up to small octave C, or something. Kind of like 'knight to rook 4.' ;)

Added lower bass octave, clarinet, two french horns playing softly and more wind in the latter part:



That's much better. Only things I'd add, would be tuba and trombone harmonies to the march, give more expression/vibrato to the alto flute in bar 5, have the basses play a sustained great octave E while celli and bassoons play great octave B - small octave C - to small octave C# above (currently there's not enough bass hear), and reduce the volume and force of the timpani pulse. It should be much softer - played with felt mallets.

#163 gkgyver

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 05:28 AM



#164 Leo R.

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 06:24 AM


Sorry, but that was wide off the mark...

The 0.24-0.28 bit works, but the rest is nothing like the original melody. What went wrong?

#165 Victor Zokas

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 10:21 AM

I thought it was a good representation of that scene, especially the start of the cue as Bond leaves M's office. Apart from Checkpoint Charlie and when Khan loses control of the plane, are the any other major unrecorded cues left for Octopussy?

Edited by Victor Zokas, 07 April 2011 - 10:22 AM.


#166 The Shark

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 11:16 AM

Things that need correction:

1. Strings are far too heavy in both the prelude to- and the travelogue sequence itself. Much lighter articulation and phrasing needed. Less sluggish and pounding.

2. The most notable mistake is here the trumpets/wind melody. You've interpreting as chromatic, whereas it's simply based around Em. As are the repeated chords.

It's as follows:

Triplet value B-C-B 16th notes down to A quarter note, down to E 8th note, up to another triplet 16th note figure of (this time) A-B-A. After that what follows is G, descending to F# then E 8th notes. All of these must be staccato.

3. Finger cymbals should be doubling the tambourine.

4. The Trombone/tuba/bassoon chords need to be more marked. And remember, strings play 8th note chugging rhythm. Brass, timpani and lower winds just play quarter notes.

#167 gkgyver

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 12:19 PM

As usual, you give me a hell of a lot to work with, thanks!

But:

Things that need correction:

1. Strings are far too heavy in both the prelude to- and the travelogue sequence itself. Much lighter articulation and phrasing needed. Less sluggish and pounding.

4. The Trombone/tuba/bassoon chords need to be more marked. And remember, strings play 8th note chugging rhythm. Brass, timpani and lower winds just play quarter notes.


A major problem here: you're essentially saying that the performance needs to be improved. And I agree. But I can't control it to this extent.
I can, of course, make the tuba/trombone line more prominent, and I will, but I have a very limited palette of what I can do to actually shape the performance of, say, the violins.

By the way, strings (celli as well as basses as well as violas) are playing rhythm in my recording. It's not noticeable?
Would you like to see a conductor's score for my orchestration?

2. The most notable mistake is here the trumpets/wind melody. You've interpreting as chromatic, whereas it's simply based around Em. As are the repeated chords.


There's trumpet supporting the winds? Are you positive? To me, it sounds like pure woodwinds. I know a trumpet can blend very well with woodwinds, but I can't hear it.

3. Finger cymbals should be doubling the tambourine.


Don't have them ...

#168 gkgyver

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 02:09 PM

On a personal note ...

As of yesterday, I am engaged to a most amazing lady.
To let you participate a little, here is a piece of music I wrote for her some time ago:



#169 Leo R.

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 03:40 PM

Apart from Checkpoint Charlie and when Khan loses control of the plane, are the any other major unrecorded cues left for Octopussy?


Some 20 minutes of them :-)
They include music at the casino/hotel; the morgue; more music on Octopussy's island; the art depot; several variations on the Chase Bomb theme; the final scenes.

#170 Leo R.

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 05:10 PM

On a personal note ...

As of yesterday, I am engaged to a most amazing lady.


Congrats!

#171 gkgyver

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 10:19 PM

I'll apply the changes suggested by Mr. Jaws.

But, honestly, does it sound that horrible?

#172 mattjoes

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 12:42 AM

More on the Delhi cue:

With the information that The Shark provided you can probably deduct this yourself, but just to be sure, at 0:16 the melody goes B-C-B-A-E-G-A-G-Gb-E.

The tambourine shakes that begin at 0:25 should grow slightly louder toward the end of each phrase, and then die down before starting again.

At 0:28, the melody goes F-G-F-E-C-D instead of what I think is A-Ab-G-F-E-D.


But, honestly, does it sound that horrible?

It sounds as if the orchestra was playing out of tune!


As of yesterday, I am engaged to a most amazing lady.

Congratulations! I enjoyed the music. Hope she does too!


P.S.: Don't forget my suggestions on the Acrostar and Egg Hunt tracks.

#173 The Shark

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 06:24 AM

On a personal note ...

As of yesterday, I am engaged to a most amazing lady.
To let you participate a little, here is a piece of music I wrote for her some time ago:



That's a terrific elegy. Love the reverb effect you've got on the piano. Reminds me a lot of mid-70s Barry. i.e. KING KONG and THE DEEP.

There's trumpet supporting the winds? Are you positive? To me, it sounds like pure woodwinds. I know a trumpet can blend very well with woodwinds, but I can't hear it.


No you're right. I was thinking of the B section with the horns.

By the way, strings (celli as well as basses as well as violas) are playing rhythm in my recording. It's not noticeable?
Would you like to see a conductor's score for my orchestration?


Yes, I'd like to the see the conductor's score. I have a feeling celli and basses could be playing pizz, with the timpani/brass/harp/lower wind quarter notes. It also sounds like you've got the strings play open fifths (i.e. E-B-E), whereas it should be Em. Much lighter too.

The tambourine shakes that begin at 0:25 should grow slightly louder toward the end of each phrase, and then die down before starting again.


You'd get that through a hairpin crescendo.

i.e.

Posted Image

#174 Professor Dent

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 01:47 PM

On a personal note ...

As of yesterday, I am engaged to a most amazing lady.

Congratulations!

Really enjoying your work with the music. Thanks for all your effort here. :)

#175 Marcato

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 07:18 AM

[quote name='gkgyver' timestamp='1301536587' post='1150455']
Your ending to the march is incorrect because it has the brass playing an E minor chord together with the harp.


I did take the ending from GOBINDA ATTACKS - Since Barry's music is a lot of copy-paste i strongly suggest that it was the same chord he used all arround - even if it's hard to hear on the dvd-track

#176 The Shark

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 12:41 PM

Call me deaf, but I can't hear where this closing Em chord on Marcato's MIDI recreation is. Sure, there's an E doubled in octaves sustained, at the end of each cue (Gunbarrel and Bond Lookalike), but not triad.

The Gobinda Attacks ending figure, is simply 1 tuba/4 trombones/8 horns/2 bassoons/2 clarinets/contrabasses/cellos/violas playing tenuto Em (voiced: E/B/E/G/B ) chords, with a rhythm of 1 half note, followed by another half note tied (through the next bar) to a dotted half note, itself tied to an 8th note. In bar 3 - We have a mf accented Em half note (with > decrescendo afterwards) to mp tenuto half note, tied across the bar to another half note - with mp < mf crescendo.

End of cue.

#177 gkgyver

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 03:44 PM

I'm currently transcribing the Freefall while working on the Delhi cue. I promise nothing, but I'll try (the freefall).

#178 The Shark

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 04:42 PM

For the freefall, you really need to get the idée fixe chord right. It's an Em/Maj9th, but the voicing is very important. To get that hard attack, you need to use compression.

Unlike the Nic Raine recording, there should be a double bass instead of a bass guitar. The B-E-C-E-Db-E motif doesn't descend to a great octave E, but goes up to small octave E. In other words, the emphasis is on the 1st and 3 bets of the bar, not the 2nd and 4rth. Remember to bring out the harp during both this section and the later glissandi.

#179 gkgyver

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 01:04 PM

I'm not sure what you mean by B-E-C-E-Db-E motif or idee fixe. I know what idee fixe means, but I have no idea what you're describing.
There is the Bond theme, and the motif that is similarily used in the Gondola Chase. But there is no such motif as you describe ...?

#180 gkgyver

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 05:57 PM

Hang in, I'm getting there ... ;)




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