Jump to content


This is a read only archive of the old forums
The new CBn forums are located at https://quarterdeck.commanderbond.net/

 
Photo

Simon Raven's Contributions to OHMSS?


23 replies to this topic

#1 Revelator

Revelator

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 572 posts
  • Location:San Francisco

Posted 27 August 2009 - 09:58 PM

As many of you already know, Simon Raven is credited with providing "Additional Dialogue" for the script of On Her Majesty's Secret Service. I'm interested in knowing the extent of his contributions, especially whether he contributed more than just lines to the picture.

Thanks to the extra materials on the OHMSS DVD, we know one famous example of his additional dialogue--the poem, adapted from James Elroy Flecker's The Story of Hassan, that Tracy recites to Blofeld as Draco's helicopters approach.

Thy dawn, O Master of the World, thy dawn;
For thee the sunlight creeps across the lawn,
For thee the ships are drawn down to the waves,
For thee the markets throng with myriad slaves,
For thee the hammer on the anvil rings,
For thee the poet of beguilement sings.



As Tracy recites the last line, Hunt cuts to Bond silhouetted against the sky, framed against the brilliant blood-red sun and cradling his machine-gun, and with Tracy's voice layered over the image and the hum of the helicopter blades, we see that the poet of beguilement is Bond, bringing glorious violence in his wake. It's a brilliant cut--the shot is one of the few pieces of genuine visual poetry in all of the Bond films, aptly counterpointed by the overlay of verbal poetry provided by Raven.

Raven himself was an apt choice to work on the Bond films, since he was familiar with Fleming's work, having reviewed it on several occasions, and was one of Fleming's defenders. His review of Casino Royale compared it to the work of British hard-boiled novelist Peter Cheyney:

All honour, then, to Mr. Fleming for taking the best elements of the Cheyney method (speed, controlled savagery, a pungent and skeptical idiom) and yet combining them with the more spacious and gracious atmosphere of old-fashioned intrigue--monocles, medals and milordos. Mr. Fleming is a Cheyney with a Sandhurst accent.


Raven's only complaint was with the notorious torture scene, which he deemed "too monstrous to be excused." He would later defend Fleming against the accusations of immorality that broke out after the publication of Doctor No:

I have just been reading a long complaint, in the monthly The Twentieth Century, about the unsatisfactory tone of Ian Fleming's novels. The author of this complaint, Bernard Bergonzi, having remarked that these novels are similar to John Buchan's in subject (spies and pursuits), then goes on to say that, whereas Buchan's books are fundamentally decent and do depend on an ethic of sorts, Commander Fleming's tales are without any ethical frame of reference and have an 'affective superstructure' of a perverted and anti-social nature….

Now this is a quiet and well-argued article, but it does appear to reach a most naive conclusion. I mention it here because this type of complaint, about Commander Fleming and others, is increasingly in evidence and has always seemed to me to be entirely beside the point. Since when has it been remarkable in a work of entertainment that it should lack a specific 'ethical frame of reference'? I don't suggest that any of Fleming's books, least of all the latest one, Dr. No, should be left around in the nursery any more than The Relapse or Ars Amatoria. What I do suggest is that Commander Fleming, by reason of his cool and analytical intelligence, his informed use of technical facts, his plausibility, sense of pace, brilliant descriptive powers and superb imagination, provides sheer entertainment such as I, who must read many novels, am seldom lucky enough to find. It may well be, as Mr. Bergonzi suggests, that Fleming's conscious reaction to the dowdiness of the Welfare State has induced him to create fictitious pleasure-domes so splendiferous as to be merely vulgar: the menus in Dr. No are a joy to read for all that. It may be that James Bond, hero of Dr. No and all Fleming's novels, is indeed the super-colossal father-figure of every juvenile delinquent that ever there was: he certainly 'sends' me. I venture to suppose that, whether you approve of him or not, whether you are a banker, a lawyer, a soldier or a turf accountant, he will 'send' you too.


A few years later Raven would even go on to praise The Man With the Golden Gun: "This book is never boring. It includes an imaginative cabaret, instructions of how to prepare and eat a raw snake, and some amusing business with an old-fashioned virgin tied to a railway line." However, he noted, "Construction is patchy and both sides get away with incompetence which would have been unthinkable or immediately fatal a few years earlier in Bond’s career."

With these sort of credentials Raven was an obvious choice to adapt Fleming and a kindred spirit to Peter Hunt, who was determined to capture the essence of Fleming's work. An article published in Movie Collector (Vol.2 No.2, March 14 1995), which can be read online here, features an interview with Hunt, who had this to say about Raven's involvement:

He did some good dialogue for me. He made some of the dialogue much more intelligent than it really was. It wasn't quite so cardboardy. By that I don't mean to denigrate Richard Maibaum. Certainly with a big spectacular action film you really are working all the time at it and certain things present themselves when you start rehearsing them and setting them up, both in dialogue and in the way that you do it. A script for that sort of thing is not like doing a play where you've got words that really have to have meaning.


Hunt's words raise several issues. First, did Raven's contributions extend beyond reworking Maibaum's dialogue? Raven made much of his income adapting plays and novels for British television, so he would have been suited to adapt Fleming, an author he liked and understood. I doubt that Raven made any great structural changes to the script, but we don't know what sort of little things he might have added to individual scenes--after all, his addition of Flecker's poem after all helped transform Tracy's captivity into a bewitching idyll.
Second issue: if Raven's contribution really was revising Maibuam's lines, it would be interesting to compare Maibaum's draft with the shooting script, which benefited not only from Raven's input but also Hunt's. As Hunt says, "I had a big hand in the script, wrote quite a lot of it as we went, although Maibaum quite justifiably gets the credit because he did it all first. There's a lot of things that were added as we went."

This raises a last issue--while plenty of books have been written about the Bond films in general, very few have addressed the writing process in much detail. How the scripts evolved for each Bond film is one of the most underexplored issues in Bond studies. Very few people have gone to the trouble of looking over multiple drafts and comparing them to see how a film might have evolved in the scripting process and to determine who wrote what. One clear exception is Adrian Turner's excellent book on Goldfinger, which examines Maibaum and Paul Dehn's scripts to show what each man contributed to the project--we find out that the laser was Maibaum's idea, whereas the wittiest lines were Dehn's and so on. This has not been done for OHMSS, but such a project is eminently worth pursuing, due to the high quality of OHMSS, perhaps the best-ever adaptation of Fleming's work.

Edited by Revelator, 27 August 2009 - 10:08 PM.


#2 Mr. Blofeld

Mr. Blofeld

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 9173 posts
  • Location:North Smithfield, RI, USA

Posted 27 August 2009 - 11:03 PM

I have a hunch on which lines are Raven's:

"Epidemics of sterility; nothing is born, no seed even begins to sprout."

"When I disapproved, cut off her allowance, she committed some greater folly... to spite me; yet, behind her bravado, something was eating away at her soul. This can happen to men and women: They burn the heart out of themselves by living too greedily, and suddenly... all is finished."

"She likes you; I can see it."
"You must give me the name of your oculist."

"You're the most extraordinary girl."
"I'm not interested in your opinion of me, Mr Bond. I'm here for a business transaction."
"Really? Isn't Le Bleu a bit heady for that?"
"So, you know your perfumes; what else do you know?"
"A little about women."
"Think of me... as a woman you've just bought."
"Who needs to buy?"

"Fraulein, I should warn you: Guns make me very nervous."
"They're to keep away the spies from the chemical companies; many times already, they have tried to steal our discoveries."
"Yes, we live in a world of avarice and deceit."
"Here, at least, there is no avarice."
"Really?"
"The Bleuchamp Institute is not for profit, Sir Hilary; the Count does his work
for the sake of Mankind."
"Mmmm, I'm very happy to hear it."
"He wants to leave his mark on the entire world."
"Characteristic ambition..."
"Characteristic?"
"Of a true humanitarian!"

The lines sound a lot more cultured and poetic than Maibaum's usual material, especially the humorous lines that Raven came up with (the "oculist" quip, "Madam always makes one feel so welcome", etc.).

#3 Revelator

Revelator

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 572 posts
  • Location:San Francisco

Posted 27 August 2009 - 11:23 PM

I think you're right--on the page the lines also have the concision and snappy cadence of the dialogue from Raven's novels, though I must admit to have only read two (An Inch of Fortune and Close of Play).

#4 Mr. Blofeld

Mr. Blofeld

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 9173 posts
  • Location:North Smithfield, RI, USA

Posted 28 August 2009 - 01:46 AM

I think you're right--on the page the lines also have the concision and snappy cadence of the dialogue from Raven's novels, though I must admit to have only read two (An Inch of Fortune and Close of Play).

I'm actually surprised they didn't invite Simon Raven back for more Bond films, considering how well his polish went (similar to Tom Mankiewicz after DAF), but, then again, I suppose OHMSS was mostly Hunt's picture, and, as Hunt's choice, Raven was automatically out of the running once Lazenby called it quits.

#5 Revelator

Revelator

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 572 posts
  • Location:San Francisco

Posted 28 August 2009 - 07:20 PM

I'm actually surprised they didn't invite Simon Raven back for more Bond films, considering how well his polish went (similar to Tom Mankiewicz after DAF), but, then again, I suppose OHMSS was mostly Hunt's picture, and, as Hunt's choice, Raven was automatically out of the running once Lazenby called it quits.


Yes, I think the producers wished to banish all the major players from OHMSS and pretend the film had never happened. Raven especially was one of Hunt's friends, and not a creature of the producers. Given his expertise and long experience in adaptations, I think Raven would have been a far more useful figure than Mankiewicz, who could write snappy dialogue but was hopeless with plot and anything beyond one-dimensional characters.

#6 Mr. Blofeld

Mr. Blofeld

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 9173 posts
  • Location:North Smithfield, RI, USA

Posted 28 August 2009 - 07:57 PM

I'm actually surprised they didn't invite Simon Raven back for more Bond films, considering how well his polish went (similar to Tom Mankiewicz after DAF), but, then again, I suppose OHMSS was mostly Hunt's picture, and, as Hunt's choice, Raven was automatically out of the running once Lazenby called it quits.

Yes, I think the producers wished to banish all the major players from OHMSS and pretend the film had never happened.

A huge mistake on their part, in my opinion; for instance, Lewis Gilbert wasn't sacked from any more Bond films after Connery left in '67, so why should Hunt have been sacked after '69?

Raven especially was one of Hunt's friends, and not a creature of the producers. Given his expertise and long experience in adaptations, I think Raven would have been a far more useful figure than Mankiewicz, who could write snappy dialogue but was hopeless with plot and anything beyond one-dimensional characters.

Very true; just look at the wonderfully snobbish dialogue he gave Blofeld in the film (who, irony of ironies, was played by an American in OHMSS, while the deadpan, poorly punning Blofeld of DAF was played by an effete, upper-crust Englishman!):

"I may yet surprise you, but I'm afraid that you have no surprises left for me; I know all about your mission, Mr Bond. Your colleague: Such a keen climber, such a brilliant conversationalist... before he left us!"

"Oh... poor fellow; he was restless, too. You perverse British, how you love your exercise. Every year, dozens of amateur climbers, they wind up in the same predicament; a kind of... waxwork show for morbid tourists. Dear, dear me."

"Now, now, now, now, Mr Bond; you must learn to be absolutely calm before we can accept you back into polite society!"



#7 sthgilyadgnivileht

sthgilyadgnivileht

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1854 posts

Posted 28 August 2009 - 09:04 PM

Threads on script contributions are a bit difficult, because in general terms you can't rely on screen credit to tell you the entire story, and as I understand, its normal for scripts to be re written during a films shoot anyway.

I have no idea precisely what parts of dialogue were re written by Raven, or indeed Hunt. It would indeed be interesting to read Maibaum's original script. Didn't Hunt say in one of his many commentaries that Raven focused on the dialogue with Blofeld and Tracy?
I know Maibaum was keen to stick to the Fleming original and I have never read anything to suggest the bulk of the work was NOT his (inasmuch as a film script can be written by the one credited screenwriter). Certainly Hunt was always very praiseworthy of Maibaum as a writer (and rightfully so IMO).
Screen credit logic in the Bond films IMPLIES that Raven looked at the dialogue as per Hunt's wishes. I ASSUME had he made a more substantial contribution the credits would have reflected this stating 'Screenplay by Richard Maibaum and Simon Raven', as they had done with Maibaum's other collaborators like Mankiewicz, Dehn, Hopkins and Wilson.

I agree it would be great to have a book on the Bond scripts. I would love to know exactly what Mankiewicz contributed to TSWLM and MR, plus not to mention something to clear up the controversy about exactly who wrote what for the Craig era.

#8 Mr. Blofeld

Mr. Blofeld

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 9173 posts
  • Location:North Smithfield, RI, USA

Posted 28 August 2009 - 10:51 PM

I agree it would be great to have a book on the Bond scripts. I would love to know exactly what Mankiewicz contributed to TSWLM and MR, plus not to mention something to clear up the controversy about exactly who wrote what for the Craig era.

As far as I can tell, it was Mankiewicz who wrote the centrifuge scene for Moonraker; it was also, apparently, Christopher Wood's idea for the entire AcroStar jet scene, "fill it up" and all, that was eventually used in Octopussy (and the film even plays like John Glen's version of Lewis Gilbert doing Goldfinger!).

#9 Revelator

Revelator

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 572 posts
  • Location:San Francisco

Posted 29 August 2009 - 08:09 PM

I ASSUME had he made a more substantial contribution the credits would have reflected this stating 'Screenplay by Richard Maibaum and Simon Raven', as they had done with Maibaum's other collaborators like Mankiewicz, Dehn, Hopkins and Wilson.


A very logical assumption too, but sometimes credits may underestimate or leave out a writer's contributions, as in the case of the uncredited rewrite on QoS, or Mankiewicz's contributions to the later Moore films. I agree that Raven's contrubutions were probably limited to adding dialogue, as the credits indicate, but there is always the small possibility that he added more. Alas, all three of the men behind the script are dead, so we shall never get information from the horses' mouths...

#10 DR76

DR76

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1673 posts

Posted 30 August 2009 - 05:27 PM

He did some good dialogue for me. He made some of the dialogue much more intelligent than it really was. It wasn't quite so cardboardy. By that I don't mean to denigrate Richard Maibaum.



I suspect that Hunt may have been a little spot on about Maibaum's writing. I just saw DR. NO again and I must admit that the dialogue was pretty bad. It got better in future Bond movies, but . . . well, it still wasn't always the greatest. And many of these films featured Maibaum as one of the screenwriters. Then again, he may not have been the one at fault.


Yes, I think the producers wished to banish all the major players from OHMSS and pretend the film had never happened.



I thought that Hunt had been asked to direct DAF and refused.

Edited by DR76, 30 August 2009 - 05:33 PM.


#11 JimmyBond

JimmyBond

    Commander

  • Executive Officers
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 10559 posts
  • Location:Washington

Posted 31 August 2009 - 07:28 AM

I'm not sure about DAF, but he was asked to do FYEO and couldnt commit because of another project.

#12 Mr_Wint

Mr_Wint

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 2406 posts
  • Location:Sweden

Posted 31 August 2009 - 08:36 AM

He did some good dialogue for me. He made some of the dialogue much more intelligent than it really was. It wasn't quite so cardboardy. By that I don't mean to denigrate Richard Maibaum.


I suspect that Hunt may have been a little spot on about Maibaum's writing. I just saw DR. NO again and I must admit that the dialogue was pretty bad. It got better in future Bond movies, but . . . well, it still wasn't always the greatest. And many of these films featured Maibaum as one of the screenwriters. Then again, he may not have been the one at fault.

Totally disagree. Maibaum was the true genius.

I'm not sure about DAF, but he was asked to do FYEO and couldnt commit because of another project.

Hunt was also one of the potential directors for TSWLM.

#13 sthgilyadgnivileht

sthgilyadgnivileht

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1854 posts

Posted 31 August 2009 - 11:58 AM

He did some good dialogue for me. He made some of the dialogue much more intelligent than it really was. It wasn't quite so cardboardy. By that I don't mean to denigrate Richard Maibaum.


I suspect that Hunt may have been a little spot on about Maibaum's writing. I just saw DR. NO again and I must admit that the dialogue was pretty bad. It got better in future Bond movies, but . . . well, it still wasn't always the greatest. And many of these films featured Maibaum as one of the screenwriters. Then again, he may not have been the one at fault.

Totally disagree. Maibaum was the true genius.


I agree also, Maibaum was a genius writer when it came to Bond. Plus, as I stated earlier, Hunt was full of praise for Maibaum, who supported him in going back to Fleming for OHMSS.
Some of the dialogue in Dr No was the smartest in the series. It was textbook from day one - especially when Bond and Dr No talk over dinner.
I don't know this for sure, but as well as writing the initial drafts, I think Maibaum did the 'final' writing for the Dr No screenplay, (plus I wouldn't mind betting he, out of the four writers, pulled it into a coherent shooting script).

#14 DR76

DR76

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1673 posts

Posted 31 August 2009 - 05:01 PM

I don't know this for sure, but as well as writing the initial drafts, I think Maibaum did the 'final' writing for the Dr No screenplay, (plus I wouldn't mind betting he, out of the four writers, pulled it into a coherent shooting script).



Oh dear. If that's true, then I really don't see myself calling Maibaum a "genuis".

#15 Mr_Wint

Mr_Wint

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 2406 posts
  • Location:Sweden

Posted 31 August 2009 - 11:04 PM

I don't know this for sure, but as well as writing the initial drafts, I think Maibaum did the 'final' writing for the Dr No screenplay, (plus I wouldn't mind betting he, out of the four writers, pulled it into a coherent shooting script).

Oh dear. If that's true, then I really don't see myself calling Maibaum a "genuis".

What is it that you don't like with the dialogue/writing in Dr No? Some examples would help us to understand... you.

#16 DamnCoffee

DamnCoffee

    Commander

  • Executive Officers
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 24459 posts
  • Location:England

Posted 31 August 2009 - 11:07 PM

There's really some cringeworthy dialogue in On Her Majesty’s Secret Service, it sounds very Raven as well. Especially Tracey's line, "I want to see the dawn!"

I didn't really see the point of...

"Thy dawn, O Master of the World, thy dawn;
For thee the sunlight creeps across the lawn,
For thee the ships are drawn down to the waves,
For thee the markets throng with myriad slaves,
For thee the hammer on the anvil rings,
For thee the poet of beguilement sings."

Either. If I was kidnapped by a bald maniac, I really wouldn't recite a poem back at him.

#17 Mr. Blofeld

Mr. Blofeld

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 9173 posts
  • Location:North Smithfield, RI, USA

Posted 31 August 2009 - 11:18 PM

There's really some cringeworthy dialogue in On Her Majesty’s Secret Service, it sounds very Raven as well. Especially Tracey's line, "I want to see the dawn!"

I didn't really see the point of...

"Thy dawn, O Master of the World, thy dawn;
For thee the sunlight creeps across the lawn,
For thee the ships are drawn down to the waves,
For thee the markets throng with myriad slaves,
For thee the hammer on the anvil rings,
For thee the poet of beguilement sings."

...either; if I was kidnapped by a bald maniac, I really wouldn't recite a poem back at him.

Really? I think you've missed the whole bit with Blofeld trying to charm Tracy to his side, and then Tracy hearing her father's voice and knowing he's coming to rescue her soon... so she pretends to give in to Blofeld and distract him by playing to his love of snobbery (thus, the poem) until Draco and Bond get to Piz Gloria. B)

#18 Revelator

Revelator

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 572 posts
  • Location:San Francisco

Posted 01 September 2009 - 05:09 PM

There's really some cringeworthy dialogue in On Her Majesty’s Secret Service, it sounds very Raven as well. Especially Tracey's line, "I want to see the dawn!"

I didn't really see the point of...

"Thy dawn, O Master of the World, thy dawn;
For thee the sunlight creeps across the lawn,
For thee the ships are drawn down to the waves,
For thee the markets throng with myriad slaves,
For thee the hammer on the anvil rings,
For thee the poet of beguilement sings."

...either; if I was kidnapped by a bald maniac, I really wouldn't recite a poem back at him.

Really? I think you've missed the whole bit with Blofeld trying to charm Tracy to his side, and then Tracy hearing her father's voice and knowing he's coming to rescue her soon... so she pretends to give in to Blofeld and distract him by playing to his love of snobbery (thus, the poem) until Draco and Bond get to Piz Gloria. B)


Exactly. Far from being cringeworthy, it's one of the very best bits in the film. Tracy flatters Blofeld by reciting a poem wherein Blofeld can see himself as "Master of the World," and she recites "For thee the poet of beguilement sings" Hunt cuts to that beautiful shot of Bond in Draco's helicopter, silhouetted against the evening sky and holding his gun--the irony being that Blofeld's poet of beguilement will be doing his singing with a machine-gun. Verbal and visual poetry coalesce in a moment of graceful irony. That's the sort of thing that Maibaum wasn't capable of, though he was a brilliant prosodist.

#19 DR76

DR76

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1673 posts

Posted 01 September 2009 - 05:45 PM

What is it that you don't like with the dialogue/writing in Dr No? Some examples would help us to understand... you.



Why? I don't like the dialogue in DR. NO. That's it.



Really? I think you've missed the whole bit with Blofeld trying to charm Tracy to his side, and then Tracy hearing her father's voice and knowing he's coming to rescue her soon... so she pretends to give in to Blofeld and distract him by playing to his love of snobbery (thus, the poem) until Draco and Bond get to Piz Gloria.


That was an interesting scene. And what was even more interesting was how Blofeld fell for it, until Bond and Draco's attack.

#20 sthgilyadgnivileht

sthgilyadgnivileht

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1854 posts

Posted 01 September 2009 - 05:54 PM

There's really some cringeworthy dialogue in On Her Majesty’s Secret Service, it sounds very Raven as well. Especially Tracey's line, "I want to see the dawn!"

I didn't really see the point of...

"Thy dawn, O Master of the World, thy dawn;
For thee the sunlight creeps across the lawn,
For thee the ships are drawn down to the waves,
For thee the markets throng with myriad slaves,
For thee the hammer on the anvil rings,
For thee the poet of beguilement sings."

...either; if I was kidnapped by a bald maniac, I really wouldn't recite a poem back at him.

Really? I think you've missed the whole bit with Blofeld trying to charm Tracy to his side, and then Tracy hearing her father's voice and knowing he's coming to rescue her soon... so she pretends to give in to Blofeld and distract him by playing to his love of snobbery (thus, the poem) until Draco and Bond get to Piz Gloria. B)


Exactly. Far from being cringeworthy, it's one of the very best bits in the film. Tracy flatters Blofeld by reciting a poem wherein Blofeld can see himself as "Master of the World," and she recites "For thee the poet of beguilement sings" Hunt cuts to that beautiful shot of Bond in Draco's helicopter, silhouetted against the evening sky and holding his gun--the irony being that Blofeld's poet of beguilement will be doing his singing with a machine-gun. Verbal and visual poetry coalesce in a moment of graceful irony. That's the sort of thing that Maibaum wasn't capable of, though he was a brilliant prosodist.


I love that dialogue in OHMSS. One of the things that made the film unique.

What is it that you don't like with the dialogue/writing in Dr No? Some examples would help us to understand... you.



Why? I don't like the dialogue in DR. NO. That's it.


I can't agree with you here. The Dr No script must have been a milestone at the time. You have Connery, as the first younger male cinematic lead in history, setting an audience alight in an opening with what I think is very snappy dialogue indeed- "looks like your out to get me", "do you play any other games" and so on. Not to mention the "Bond, James Bond" line....

Every opening scene with a major character is well written - Bond with M, Bond with Monneypenny, Bond with Honey.
The script moves well as Bond unravels Dr No's plan, and it successfully creates and establishes James Bond as a cinematic character.

The whole film is almost a play on words. By that I mean it does not rely on a vast aray of stunts and special effects for the entirety of its highpoints (as some of the later Bonds would go on to do). The majority of the film builds Dr No up as a villain - most of the characters are (very) afraid of him in the film. Consequently, as a result of this build up, much of the 'climax' is in the superb dialogue between Connery and Wiseman. If the script was not full of the subtle antagonisms between hero and villain, the whole film would have fallen totally flat, (notwithstanding its explosive ending). And yes, Dr No may have the odd corny line, but so what? Isn't this kind an inevitability from a film that is almost fifty years old?

#21 Mr. Blofeld

Mr. Blofeld

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 9173 posts
  • Location:North Smithfield, RI, USA

Posted 01 September 2009 - 08:16 PM

There's really some cringeworthy dialogue in On Her Majesty’s Secret Service, it sounds very Raven as well. Especially Tracey's line, "I want to see the dawn!"

I didn't really see the point of...

"Thy dawn, O Master of the World, thy dawn;
For thee the sunlight creeps across the lawn,
For thee the ships are drawn down to the waves,
For thee the markets throng with myriad slaves,
For thee the hammer on the anvil rings,
For thee the poet of beguilement sings."

...either; if I was kidnapped by a bald maniac, I really wouldn't recite a poem back at him.

Really? I think you've missed the whole bit with Blofeld trying to charm Tracy to his side, and then Tracy hearing her father's voice and knowing he's coming to rescue her soon... so she pretends to give in to Blofeld and distract him by playing to his love of snobbery (thus, the poem) until Draco and Bond get to Piz Gloria. B)

Exactly. Far from being cringeworthy, it's one of the very best bits in the film. Tracy flatters Blofeld by reciting a poem wherein Blofeld can see himself as "Master of the World," and she recites "For thee the poet of beguilement sings" Hunt cuts to that beautiful shot of Bond in Draco's helicopter, silhouetted against the evening sky and holding his gun--the irony being that Blofeld's poet of beguilement will be doing his singing with a machine-gun. Verbal and visual poetry coalesce in a moment of graceful irony. That's the sort of thing that Maibaum wasn't capable of, though he was a brilliant prosodist.

Really? I always thought Tracy was meant to be the "poet of beguilement"; she "sings" to Blofeld in order to trick him into not noticing the helicopters on the horizon, and she succeeds (Blofeld even orders some henchmen to bring her with him!) until she beats the living crap out of Grunther.

The whole film is almost a play on words. By that I mean it does not rely on a vast aray of stunts and special effects for the entirety of its highpoints (as some of the later Bonds would go on to do). The majority of the film builds Dr No up as a villain - most of the characters are (very) afraid of him in the film. Consequently, as a result of this build up, much of the 'climax' is in the superb dialogue between Connery and Wiseman. If the script was not full of the subtle antagonisms between hero and villain, the whole film would have fallen totally flat, (notwithstanding its explosive ending). And yes, Dr No may have the odd corny line, but so what? Isn't this kind an inevitability from a film that is almost fifty years old?

Exactly, and that's where You Only Live Twice fails in trying to copy the plot of Dr. No; by not even mentioning Blofeld outside of the volcano, there's barely any mystique around him (within the film alone, that is; YOLT completely wastes the previous films' wonderful build-up by making Blofeld screech commands at his underlings), and, as such, when he reveals himself to Bond, complete with ridiculous costume and mannerisms, it's less of an "ah-ha!" moment and more of a "seriously? WTF?" moment. At least, that's what I thought the first time I saw it...

#22 sthgilyadgnivileht

sthgilyadgnivileht

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1854 posts

Posted 01 September 2009 - 09:23 PM

There's really some cringeworthy dialogue in On Her Majesty’s Secret Service, it sounds very Raven as well. Especially Tracey's line, "I want to see the dawn!"

I didn't really see the point of...

"Thy dawn, O Master of the World, thy dawn;
For thee the sunlight creeps across the lawn,
For thee the ships are drawn down to the waves,
For thee the markets throng with myriad slaves,
For thee the hammer on the anvil rings,
For thee the poet of beguilement sings."

...either; if I was kidnapped by a bald maniac, I really wouldn't recite a poem back at him.

Really? I think you've missed the whole bit with Blofeld trying to charm Tracy to his side, and then Tracy hearing her father's voice and knowing he's coming to rescue her soon... so she pretends to give in to Blofeld and distract him by playing to his love of snobbery (thus, the poem) until Draco and Bond get to Piz Gloria. B)

Exactly. Far from being cringeworthy, it's one of the very best bits in the film. Tracy flatters Blofeld by reciting a poem wherein Blofeld can see himself as "Master of the World," and she recites "For thee the poet of beguilement sings" Hunt cuts to that beautiful shot of Bond in Draco's helicopter, silhouetted against the evening sky and holding his gun--the irony being that Blofeld's poet of beguilement will be doing his singing with a machine-gun. Verbal and visual poetry coalesce in a moment of graceful irony. That's the sort of thing that Maibaum wasn't capable of, though he was a brilliant prosodist.

Really? I always thought Tracy was meant to be the "poet of beguilement"; she "sings" to Blofeld in order to trick him into not noticing the helicopters on the horizon, and she succeeds (Blofeld even orders some henchmen to bring her with him!) until she beats the living crap out of Grunther.

I think it's a testament to a great script (or indeed film) when people can get different interpretations of it. I think I'm with Mr Blofeld on this one though.

#23 sthgilyadgnivileht

sthgilyadgnivileht

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1854 posts

Posted 01 September 2009 - 09:31 PM

The whole film is almost a play on words. By that I mean it does not rely on a vast aray of stunts and special effects for the entirety of its highpoints (as some of the later Bonds would go on to do). The majority of the film builds Dr No up as a villain - most of the characters are (very) afraid of him in the film. Consequently, as a result of this build up, much of the 'climax' is in the superb dialogue between Connery and Wiseman. If the script was not full of the subtle antagonisms between hero and villain, the whole film would have fallen totally flat, (notwithstanding its explosive ending). And yes, Dr No may have the odd corny line, but so what? Isn't this kind an inevitability from a film that is almost fifty years old?

Exactly, and that's where You Only Live Twice fails in trying to copy the plot of Dr. No; by not even mentioning Blofeld outside of the volcano, there's barely any mystique around him (within the film alone, that is; YOLT completely wastes the previous films' wonderful build-up by making Blofeld screech commands at his underlings), and, as such, when he reveals himself to Bond, complete with ridiculous costume and mannerisms, it's less of an "ah-ha!" moment and more of a "seriously? WTF?" moment. At least, that's what I thought the first time I saw it...


My favourite Blofeld is Savalas, although I was never disappointed with YOLT (or Blofeld in it), probably because it was so superbly cinematic and iconic. However, reading this certainly makes you think what could have been, given a different approach to the screenplay and the film. I think with YOLT the producers just wanted a massive fantastical movie in order to dwarf '67's Casino Royale. Commercially that approach for YOLT worked, but it meant all continuity was thrown out the window. I wonder if there would have been SLIGHTLY more continuity had Maibaum been at the typewriter, but who knows?

#24 Mr. Blofeld

Mr. Blofeld

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 9173 posts
  • Location:North Smithfield, RI, USA

Posted 01 September 2009 - 10:15 PM

The whole film is almost a play on words. By that I mean it does not rely on a vast aray of stunts and special effects for the entirety of its highpoints (as some of the later Bonds would go on to do). The majority of the film builds Dr No up as a villain - most of the characters are (very) afraid of him in the film. Consequently, as a result of this build up, much of the 'climax' is in the superb dialogue between Connery and Wiseman. If the script was not full of the subtle antagonisms between hero and villain, the whole film would have fallen totally flat, (notwithstanding its explosive ending). And yes, Dr No may have the odd corny line, but so what? Isn't this kind an inevitability from a film that is almost fifty years old?

Exactly, and that's where You Only Live Twice fails in trying to copy the plot of Dr. No; by not even mentioning Blofeld outside of the volcano, there's barely any mystique around him (within the film alone, that is; YOLT completely wastes the previous films' wonderful build-up by making Blofeld screech commands at his underlings), and, as such, when he reveals himself to Bond, complete with ridiculous costume and mannerisms, it's less of an "ah-ha!" moment and more of a "seriously? WTF?" moment. At least, that's what I thought the first time I saw it...

My favourite Blofeld is Savalas, although I was never disappointed with YOLT (or Blofeld in it), probably because it was so superbly cinematic and iconic; however, reading this certainly makes you think what could have been, given a different approach to the screenplay and the film. I think with YOLT the producers just wanted a massive fantastical movie in order to dwarf '67's Casino Royale. Commercially, that approach for YOLT worked, but it meant all continuity was thrown out the window. I wonder if there would have been SLIGHTLY more continuity had Maibaum been at the typewriter, but who knows?

I think it would've been better to adapt Moonraker instead of YOLT (seeing as the space program was the big thing in the late '60s and Moonraker could have easily been retailored to synch with such desires, along with the fact that EON threw out a perfectly good novel to make YOLT), with Donald Pleasance as Sir Hugo Drax, but, oh well; who am I to judge? What could have been is the least of this film's problems... B)