45 replies to this topic

[danielcraigisjamesbond007]

With the recent revelation that Quantum is the mysterious force in the Craig Bond films, I was reminded of the old Connery Bond films and SPECTRE. Maybe to the viewers in the '60s, SPECTRE seemed more intimitating because all of the films hadn't been made yet. So SPECTRE seemed big and scary. But, once all of the Connery films were finished, and released for home distribution, I feel that they've lost their appeal and scariness.

I don't know about you, but I hope that the same doesn't happen to Quantum. After seeing the movie, I want (no, NEED) to know more about Quantum and their clandestine operations. However, I wonder if the same thing will happen to Quantum that happened to SPECTRE...

[Captain Tightpants]

With the recent revelation that Quantum is the mysterious force in the Craig Bond films, I was reminded of the old Connery Bond films and SPECTRE.

Really? Wow, I'll have to watch it again. I never made that connetion.





[/sarcasm]

[Sir James Molony]

With the recent revelation that Quantum is the mysterious force in the Craig Bond films, I was reminded of the old Connery Bond films and SPECTRE. Maybe to the viewers in the '60s, SPECTRE seemed more intimitating because all of the films hadn't been made yet. So SPECTRE seemed big and scary. But, once all of the Connery films were finished, and released for home distribution, I feel that they've lost their appeal and scariness.

Spectre became a joke as the series went on, but they work well as villians in FRWL, TB, and OHMSS.

Quantum would be a lot scarier if they wanted to do more than just become an overpriced water utility company.

[tdalton]

I have a feeling that Quantum will end up just like SPECTRE when it's all said and done with. Now that they've completed this story arc for Bond with QoS, and all signs are pointing towards a more lighthearted adventure the next time out, it's really only a matter of time until we're back to seeing Bond as something of a stand-up comedian again, which will also lead to Quantum (if they even choose to continue using the organization) following the same route towards becoming more of a joke and less of a real intimidating threat in the films.

[dinovelvet]

I don't know about you, but I hope that the same doesn't happen to Quantum. After seeing the movie, I want (no, NEED) to know more about Quantum and their clandestine operations. However, I wonder if the same thing will happen to Quantum that happened to SPECTRE...

They're different animals. Quantum seems to be a much more behind-the-scenes group that doesn't want to be noticed, whereas SPECTRE (Hmm, should we be capitalizing QUANTUM or not?) is much more public, i.e. stealing nuclear missiles and then demanding $100 million, or, er, starting World War Three. Quantum is (from what we've seen so far) like a parasite, manipulating governments and resources for profit, and then moving on to the next place. From Greene's dialogue it seems they already did this in Haiti and were laying the groundwork for other South American takeovers.

[Bucky]

I have a feeling that Quantum will end up just like SPECTRE when it's all said and done with. Now that they've completed this story arc for Bond with QoS, and all signs are pointing towards a more lighthearted adventure the next time out, it's really only a matter of time until we're back to seeing Bond as something of a stand-up comedian again, which will also lead to Quantum (if they even choose to continue using the organization) following the same route towards becoming more of a joke and less of a real intimidating threat in the films.

i don't feel like that has to be the case. i feel like the next bond film will probably try to be more like thunderball with regard to its humor, not to the ridiculous level of the brosnan films. while spectre was changed somewhat for that film it didnt make it any less threatening.

perhaps with future films bond will maybe force the hand of quantum and they will have to take more direct action as opposed to working behind the scenes as they have been doing which will allow them to show quantum differently but not make them any less threatening as a result.

[Turn]

I'm rather glad to have Bond pursuing an ongoing enemy in Quantum as opposed to the the mostly multi-billionaire villains of most of the last 35 years of the series.

[MajorB]

Agreed. I always liked SPECTRE and was sorry when it went away. When it initially looked like it would be revived for TSWLM, I was very excited, but alas, it was not to be.

The fact that the next film will be less grim and Bond presumably less angst-ridden doesn't necessarily mean that Quantum will be any less threatening. I like the idea that they're very shadowy and "have people everywhere." That's very sinister. I too want to know more about who they are, their agenda, who's in charge (one person? a committee?). And I very much hope Mr. White returns, possibly as a more important part of the proceedings.

[tdalton]

perhaps with future films bond will maybe force the hand of quantum and they will have to take more direct action as opposed to working behind the scenes as they have been doing which will allow them to show quantum differently but not make them any less threatening as a result.

Well, they do have a great opportunity ahead of them to do that with the next film, although I can't see EON actually going with it. My idea would be, now that Bond has thwarted two of their business ventures, to go ahead and actually take an idea from one of the Gardner novels and have QUANTUM put a price on Bond's head, and have the film be about QUANTUM agents going after Bond. I think that this would be a nice change of pace from what we're used to seeing from the Bond films.

[jaguar007]

For Bond 24, I would like to see the basis for the book YOLT where Bond goes after the mysterious Dr. Shatterhand only to have Dr. Shatterhand really be Mr. White.

[Publius]

We've already seen some of the differences that could work in favor of Quantum having more staying power. Contrast the campy meetings SPECTRE had as early as FRWL and that were continued in TB and YOLT (over-the-top, speaking very openly about their elaborate schemes) with the discreet gatherings of Quantum (hushed innuendos, low-key but "horribly efficient" plots).

That part of QoS when Bond finds an earpiece at the opera and we begin hearing increasingly decipherable murmurs behind the scratchy feedback is to me one of the highlights of the film, a classic "oh " moment where we start realizing that Bond has just stumbled onto something much bigger than himself and Mr. White wasn't kidding about the extent of this previously unknown global organization. Much creepier and more imposing than anything we saw of SPECTRE.

[Harmsway]

That part of QoS when Bond finds an earpiece at the opera and we begin hearing increasingly decipherable murmurs behind the scratchy feedback is to me one of the highlights of the film, a classic "oh " moment where we start realizing that Bond has just stumbled onto something much bigger than himself and Mr. White wasn't kidding about the extent of this previously unknown global organization. Much creepier and more imposing than anything we saw of SPECTRE.

Indeed it is. It's at that point where Quantum really begins to feel like a really interesting threat. Shame that the rest of the film didn't quite deliver on that initial sense of threat that the first third of the story developed.

[Publius]

That part of QoS when Bond finds an earpiece at the opera and we begin hearing increasingly decipherable murmurs behind the scratchy feedback is to me one of the highlights of the film, a classic "oh " moment where we start realizing that Bond has just stumbled onto something much bigger than himself and Mr. White wasn't kidding about the extent of this previously unknown global organization. Much creepier and more imposing than anything we saw of SPECTRE.

Indeed it is. It's at that point where Quantum really begins to feel like a really interesting threat. Shame that the rest of the film didn't quite deliver on that initial sense of threat that the first third of the story developed.

What I like about that is how mysterious Quantum remains. We get a taste of what they are, but just as their members scatter from the opera (probably to lay low for a while, ensure their stay covered, and plan on how to be less "public" from now on) the film zeros in on one of the few who stayed, a man who if not one of its leaders certainly seemed to be its man of the hour.

That's why I love Greene's last line, "I told you what you wanted to know about Quantum." Just how much did he tell Bond, and where will Bond 23 go with that? There's a lot of ground left to cover, and I think the powers that be wisely punted the bulk of it to when Bond's focus will pull back to become more global in scope, in accordance with the nature of his enemy.

That said, I do think that drastically ups my expectations for Bond 23. I'll be honest, I'm not so sure they can or even want to deliver in that regard. I think it'd be a mistake to even give Quantum the Goldfinger treatment by putting it on the backburner for one movie, because QoS already semi did that.

[plankattack]

I suspect Quantum will end up playing a part in much of DC's tenure. EON are clearly remodelling along the lines of the early films and SPECTRE's continued presence was part of that. And let's not forget that SPECTRE only went away due to legal wrangling. The fact they were the original villains in TSWLM draft indicates that EON would have continued using them in plots for as long as helped the plot.

Hopefully P&W do not decide to set up their own franchise and try to claim Quantum as their intellectual property.... (they can keep Jinx, though)

[Harmsway]

What I like about that is how mysterious Quantum remains. We get a taste of what they are, but just as their members scatter from the opera (probably to lay low for a while, ensure their stay covered, and plan on how to be less "public" from now on) the film zeros in on one of the few who stayed, a man who if not one of its leaders certainly seemed to be its man of the hour.

I very much appreciate their refusal to just reveal the mystery. The idea of this secret organization controlling world governments from behind the scenes is terrifying, and I love that they don't lay the mechanics of that all bare in one film. But I wish Quantum's activity in QUANTUM OF SOLACE was a bit more threatening than the water storyline they use (really, I think the water storyline is at the core of QUANTUM OF SOLACE's narrative problems for a lot of different reasons).

Sure, the Bolivian water scheme is nasty behavior, but I think they could have gone for something far more chilling by playing up a kind of conspiracy theory feel and perhaps going into something like MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE territory. That realm of shady manipulation, where nothing is quite what it seems.

I think it'd be a mistake to even give Quantum the Goldfinger treatment by putting it on the backburner for one movie, because QoS already semi did that.

It certainly would be a big mistake. They've got a real build-up going. They need to deliver.

[Publius]

Sure, the Bolivian water scheme is nasty behavior, but I think they could have gone for something far more chilling by playing up a kind of conspiracy theory feel and perhaps going into something like MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE territory. That realm of shady manipulation, where nothing is quite what it seems.

Yes, that would be great, and I think they could still do something like that with their dangling Guy Haines thread.

[Mr. Blofeld]

Why not use our loose-end QOS ending as the PTS for the next film? It would set up Quantum going after Bond perfectly.

Just think:

Bond has just shot White.

GUY HAINES: "Who the hell are you?"
BOND: "Bond. James Bond."

He smiles at Haines, and we cut to the opening titles.

[tdalton]

What I like about that is how mysterious Quantum remains. We get a taste of what they are, but just as their members scatter from the opera (probably to lay low for a while, ensure their stay covered, and plan on how to be less "public" from now on) the film zeros in on one of the few who stayed, a man who if not one of its leaders certainly seemed to be its man of the hour.

I very much appreciate their refusal to just reveal the mystery. The idea of this secret organization controlling world governments from behind the scenes is terrifying, and I love that they don't lay the mechanics of that all bare in one film. But I wish Quantum's activity in QUANTUM OF SOLACE was a bit more threatening than the water storyline they use (really, I think the water storyline is at the core of QUANTUM OF SOLACE's narrative problems for a lot of different reasons).

Sure, the Bolivian water scheme is nasty behavior, but I think they could have gone for something far more chilling by playing up a kind of conspiracy theory feel and perhaps going into something like MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE territory. That realm of shady manipulation, where nothing is quite what it seems.

I think it'd be a mistake to even give Quantum the Goldfinger treatment by putting it on the backburner for one movie, because QoS already semi did that.

It certainly would be a big mistake. They've got a real build-up going. They need to deliver.

I thought that the water storyline was plenty terrifying. Suppose QUANTUM was able to do that all over the world. That would allow them to have a much more effective plan at the ever so cliche "world domination" than any of the other over-the-top Bond villains were ever able to come up with. It may not have been a plot that was executed as well as it could or should have been, but the basic premise of an evil organization like that controlling a country's water supply is quite terrifying.

[Harmsway]

I thought that the water storyline was plenty terrifying. Suppose QUANTUM was able to do that all over the world.

That was the problem. It doesn't necessarily follow that they could do that all over the world; it's significantly easier to manipulate events in a backwater country like Bolivia. We really needed to see Quantum toying with some bigger issues if they wanted to really inspire some fear. Quantum is at its most terrifying when it's suggested that Guy Haines is part of its organization, and the film never does anything with that.

The plot in QUANTUM OF SOLACE should have had either had clearer international repercussions, or it should have been a different plot altogether. I would go for the latter; the whole water thing isn't that interesting, realistic or no, or particularly suspenseful. It's furthermore very problematic that the movie treats it like a mystery that needs to be revealed, since after the build-up, it's nothing particularly stunning. It would have been better to be open about it from the very beginning.

[tdalton]

I thought that the water storyline was plenty terrifying. Suppose QUANTUM was able to do that all over the world.

That was the problem. It doesn't necessarily follow that they could do that all over the world; it's significantly easier to manipulate events in a backwater country like Bolivia. We really needed to see Quantum toying with some bigger issues if they wanted to really inspire some fear. Quantum is at its most terrifying when it's suggested that Guy Haines is part of its organization, and the film never does anything with that.

The plot in QUANTUM OF SOLACE should have had either had clearer international repercussions, or it should have been a different plot altogether. I would go for the latter; the whole water thing isn't that interesting, realistic or no, or particularly suspenseful. It's furthermore very problematic that the movie treats it like a mystery that needs to be revealed, since after the build-up, it's nothing particularly stunning. It would have been better to be open about it from the very beginning.

No, it doesn't necessarily follow that they could do it all over the world, but they could probably do it in enough places that the world would be backed into a corner of some sort. An interesting direction to have taken it would have been to have them do this to a certain number of allies to countries like the US, UK, France, etc. as a distraction that they would be forced to deal with which would then pose QUANTUM the chance to do something else while those countries weren't looking.

With that said, the water supply angle is one that is quite terrifying, because since we don't know exactly what QUANTUM's capabilities are, there's nothing to suggest that they could or couldn't do that to much larger countries around the world. The terrifying aspect of that comes from the idea that they could do it. If they can do it in one country, then they may be able to do it somewhere else.

It's also the fact that the water-supply plot was just a means to an end in overthrowing the government in Bolivia. As Greene said towards the end, "had your predecessor been more agreeable, we wouldn't be having this conversation" (or something to that effect). QUANTUM, while not necessarily able to pull off a nation-wide drought in every country, could be able to position itself to overthrow other governments through different tactics, which is quite terrifying as well.

[Harmsway]

With that said, the water supply angle is one that is quite terrifying, because since we don't know exactly what QUANTUM's capabilities are, there's nothing to suggest that they could or couldn't do that to much larger countries around the world. The terrifying aspect of that comes from the idea that they could do it.

Ambiguity about their menace doesn't make them scarier - it lessens it, because we have no reason to believe they're bigger than they're presented to us. In the film, Quantum seems smaller than they should. The film should have showed them on an international scale in a more notable way, to show that they're not just playing with backwater nations, but playing with the big ones as well.

That wouldn't have taken much too much effort (QUANTUM OF SOLACE hardly required some international doomsday plot; I wasn't looking for the film to be epic), but it would have increased Quantum's menace a great deal if they'd toyed with the manipulation of the US and UK governments a bit more than the film did.

But my biggest problem with the water plot is that it all comes down to a big, explosive finale where Bond goes to shoot-up the bad guys. It's incredibly cliche, and it was the kind of thing I'd hoped we'd left behind after CASINO ROYALE.

[tdalton]

But my biggest problem with the water plot is that it all comes down to a big, explosive finale where Bond goes to shoot-up the bad guys. It's incredibly cliche, and it was the kind of thing I'd hoped we'd left behind after CASINO ROYALE.

That's a fair point, although I'm more inclined to forgive them for it based on the interesting (but quite underused) location as well as the very dark and bold moment that they gave us just before Bond and Camille's escape from the hotel. That moment just before Bond shot the fuel tank to bust the hole in the wall that facilitated their escape was one of the darkest, most emotionally intense moments in the entire franchise, which I was glad to see just because it was something other than the traditional "Bond and Bond Girl defeat their respective villains, and head off happily into the sunset" type of ending that we always seem to get in the Bond films.

[winstoninabox]

I think we'll definitely see Quantum again, but not in the way SPECTRE was used.

Quantum's plan in QoS was about money. Not power, revenge, terror, ideology or anything else. Just money. It also required staying under the radar. The coup in Bolivia was only so that a legitimate contract could be made between the new legitimized regime and a legitimate water utilities company (backed by Quantum).

After that contract was signed Quantum would have very little direct involvement in Bolivia or its water. Quantum would be siphoning off the cash from the water company. Quantum will have moved on to to its next project (Canada for Bond 22?) where it again tries to set up a legitimate business using underhand techniques.

Like most of the SPECRTRE McGuffins Quantum's water rustling could have been replaced by anything. The difference being that with Quantum they want to remain out of sight. I'd say that trend will continue. We won't see Quantum stealing space shuttles to get the super race up to the space station so that humanity can be wiped out. But we might see them blackmailing ministers to get legislation passed so that the telecommunication industry of some ex-Soviet country will be deregulated. A not particularly glamorous plot, but Quantum's power, even though it has been discovered, remains in returning to being covert.

Also, if the same scriptwriters are kept for Bond 22 as were on CR and QoS, then there'll remain a focus on the development of Bond's character. They'll first work out Bond's journey, then find a Quantum-based McGuffin that allows some action, adventure, sex and violence along the way, but doesn't overshadow it.

[winstoninabox]

Obviously I can't count. Every time I wrote Bond 22 in the above post, it should be 23.

[DR76]

Quantum's plan in QoS was about money. Not power, revenge, terror, ideology or anything else. Just money.

That's what SPECTRE was all about. Money. Except for OHMSS, in which Blofeld wanted recognition as the current Count de Bleauchamp, and amnesty from past crimes. He was simply less subtle in trying to achieve this goal than those behind Quantum. Which probably destroyed him in the end.

Quantum would be a lot scarier if they wanted to do more than just become an overpriced water utility company.

Why would you think that being "an overpriced water utility company" was all that Quantum wanted? And what's wrong with that? To control the water supply of an entire nation is pretty scary. Assuming control of any natural resource . . . is pretty damn scary. It may not be that dramatic (unless it's oil or some kind of mineral like gold or diamonds), but it's scary.

Edited by DR76, 04 April 2009 - 06:03 PM.

[byline]

Quantum's plan in QoS was about money. Not power, revenge, terror, ideology or anything else. Just money.

That's what SPECTRE was all about. Money. Except for OHMSS, in which Blofeld wanted recognition as the current Count de Bleauchamp, and amnesty from past crimes. He was simply less subtle in trying to achieve this goal than those behind Quantum. Which probably destroyed him in the end.

Quantum would be a lot scarier if they wanted to do more than just become an overpriced water utility company.

Why would you think that being "an overpriced water utility company" was all that Quantum wanted? And what's wrong with that? To control the water supply of an entire nation is pretty scary. Assuming control of any natural resource . . . is pretty damn scary. It may not be that dramatic (unless it's oil or some kind of mineral like gold or diamonds), but it's scary.

Yup. Because the comment that one of the party guests made about Bolivians spending half their paycheck on potable water is a reality. But if you don't have the money. . . .

Edited by byline, 05 April 2009 - 04:18 PM.

[Sir James Molony]

Quantum's plan in QoS was about money. Not power, revenge, terror, ideology or anything else. Just money.

That's what SPECTRE was all about. Money. Except for OHMSS, in which Blofeld wanted recognition as the current Count de Bleauchamp, and amnesty from past crimes. He was simply less subtle in trying to achieve this goal than those behind Quantum. Which probably destroyed him in the end.

Quantum would be a lot scarier if they wanted to do more than just become an overpriced water utility company.

Why would you think that being "an overpriced water utility company" was all that Quantum wanted? And what's wrong with that? To control the water supply of an entire nation is pretty scary. Assuming control of any natural resource . . . is pretty damn scary. It may not be that dramatic (unless it's oil or some kind of mineral like gold or diamonds), but it's scary.

My original comment about the water company was somewhat tongue in cheek, but I did think that plan seemed rather small given that the country was ... Bolivia.

But I've been thinking more about it since reading the comments in this thread. QUANTUM's plan may have been about the money, but the plan was also a way for the film makers (Forster? Haggis?) to comment on the geopolitical dynamics:

- U.S. foreign policy in South America, i.e., dealing with thugs to get access to oil

- the UK's diminished role in the world (think about the speech that the minister gave to M)

- QUANTUM's manipulation of two major powers b/c QUANTUM tricked the US and UK into thinking there was oil

That approach is certainly in the spirit of Fleming, who often included fascinating speculations about the other fronts in the cold war, such as Istanbul or Jamaica

Obviously, this makes the plot seem even more different -- and much more ambiguous -- than plots that revolve around a madman who wants to start WWIII between two superpowers (YOLT, TSWLM, TND).

I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who can shed light on the geopolitics lurking below the surface of QOS.

[danielcraigisjamesbond007]

I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who can shed light on the geopolitics lurking below the surface of QOS.

Here's an article from CNN about the water crisis in Bolivia. It's a little way down, but I hope that it helps...
http://www.cnn.com/2...iref=newssearch

Here's another:
http://www.pbs.org/p...neweconomy.html

To add another point about SPECTRE: SPECTRE was created during the Cold War. While it may have been "scary" back then, we look back on those films and the danger is gone because we think "Oh, well the Cold War is over." It's a completely different perspective looking back on the Connery Bond films forty years later...

Edited by danielcraigisjamesbond007, 06 April 2009 - 03:36 AM.

[byline]

I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who can shed light on the geopolitics lurking below the surface of QOS.

I'm no expert, but my take on it was that Bolivia was only one piece of the puzzle. It was Greene's operation, which was why he was so adamant that it continue, but there was at least one other operation underway: the Canadian one. And Canada has one of the largest sources of freshwater in the world. So I believe that Quantum's aim -- or, at least, one of them -- is to control the world's freshwater supply. They're buying it up, bit by bit.

[DR76]

To add another point about SPECTRE: SPECTRE was created during the Cold War. While it may have been "scary" back then, we look back on those films and the danger is gone because we think "Oh, well the Cold War is over."

But what did SPECTRE really had to do with the Cold War? All they did was use one side against the other for their own means. This was especially apparent in FRWL. Blofeld was never a Communist sympathizer. SPECTRE could have easily been used in the post-Cold War era. It's just that their means of doing business seemed crude in compare to Quantum.