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Re-watched QoS


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#61 Judo chop

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 07:07 PM

I've heard a lot of folks talking about the set design of the Perla de las Dunas hotel. Am I the only one who thinks it's kind of bland, like a poor knock-off of a Ken Adam design, but without any of the really memorable qualities?

I can say you’re the only one in this particular conversation. B)

I’m surprised, really. I think the hotel design is Ken Adam’s inspired (as opposed to knocked-off) and actually much warmer than a lot of what Adams ever came up with. And no, not just cause it catches on fire. :tdown: I do believe it was Mattosteel who once proposed that the set had a very ‘Hellish’ quality about it, and I do agree with that. The interior is orangey-hued like it were made of sulphur and brimstone, and has a sinister class about it like you’d expect to see en La Casa del Diablo. Then of course, add the fire and it’s all the more hellish. I think of the four “elemental” themed sequences that Forster strives for, the theme of Fire is the only one that hits the bullseye. I’m convincing myself more and more it’s an “A-”.

The emphasis of the final action scene isn't on Bond fighting the bad guy/stopping a plot. It's on Vesper, really, and the thugs are just background to that event. It puts a very different spin on things, and that's the proper way to handle a climax in this new era of Bond.

And frankly, I think the choreography is much more interesting during the Venice fight, with such interesting touches as the nail gun and Bond pulling the electric socket off the wall and shocking the guy to death. Even the elevator, while not the most original thing in the world, adds something.

The choreography of the fight with Greene is blandsville, aside from the nicely brutal bit where Greene gets an axe to the foot. When I'd heard about all the stuff about the Greene fight in pre-production (about its brutality, about how Greene was going to fight like a girl, etc.), I was pretty excited... but it's just so forgettable and uninteresting to watch that I find myself tempted to fast-forward it. Same for Camille's fight with the General. Meh.

I’ll certainly give the emotional content of CR’s action finale the nod over that of QoS. Vesper crushes Camille. No question who the winner is, but it’s still a nice bit that Bond and Camille have at the end. Much more emotional content than any other Bond/girl finale outside of CR and OHMSS. (And I’m not exactly blown away by the latter.)

But I would say the nail gun (Lethal Weapon 2) and the electrical line (Goldfinger) are not that all interesting. I’m not slamming them… they are something, and that may be better than nothing (Bond vs. Grant had nothing and was better) but they aren’t at all surprising. The elevator is something as well, as is the walkway in QOS that collapses and swings downward with the camera.

I’m surprised that you haven’t really taken to Greene ‘fighting like a girl’. I was excited about it too, and I think it delivered. (What more would you hope to see?)

#62 Mr. Blofeld

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 07:10 PM

I’m surprised that you haven’t really taken to Greene ‘fighting like a girl’. I was excited about it too, and I think it delivered. (What more would you hope to see?)

Greene turning into a girl? B)

#63 Harmsway

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 07:21 PM

I’m surprised, really. I think the hotel design is Ken Adam’s inspired (as opposed to knocked-off) and actually much warmer than a lot of what Adams ever came up with.

Greater warmth isn't necessarily a plus, as far as I'm concerned.

I do believe it was Mattosteel who once proposed that the set had a very ‘Hellish’ quality about it, and I do agree with that. The interior is orangey-hued like it were made of sulphur and brimstone, and has a sinister class about it like you’d expect to see en La Casa del Diablo.

Sure. All that's there. I just don't think it's that memorable in aesthetic design, once you get down to it. Yes, it's orangey red, with some sort of firy vibe.

I think what I really don't like about it is how claustrophobic the interior is. It never really opens up, and if they're going to redesign the interior, they might as well give us something really grand-looking and stunning. Something that if the hotel existed in real life, I would walk inside and really marvel at it - I don't think the film accomplishes that.

I’m surprised that you haven’t really taken to Greene ‘fighting like a girl’. I was excited about it too, and I think it delivered. (What more would you hope to see?)

A different setting, really, with a different pace. No explosions, no kind of underlying need to escape from some other threat. Just Bond and Greene facing down after all the tension has settled, with Greene frantic now that he's isolated on his own, everybody else having already been taken out.

Bond comes in very smug, confident he can just take Greene down, and suddenly is shocked that Greene's dirty fighting style really has him on edge, only to eventually turn the tables and give Greene the smackdown of a lifetime. I wanted to see a down-and-dirty fight in a office, or somewhere, with lots of interesting objects to use in a fight. I wanted it to be real messy.

#64 tim partridge

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 07:27 PM

I definitely got a Scaramanga's industrial lair vibe from that hotel, with all of the diagonal structural beams. Beautiful looking building, and superbly shot. Too bad they didn't build a proper exploding miniature of it for the climax (why only go halfway with these things?).

#65 Judo chop

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 07:31 PM

Greater warmth isn't necessarily a plus, as far as I'm concerned.

But isn't it a plus here? B)

Something that if the hotel existed in real life, I would walk inside and really marvel at it - I don't think the film accomplishes that.

Bond comes in very smug, confident he can just take Greene down, and suddenly is shocked that Greene's dirty fighting style really has him on edge, only to eventually turn the tables and give Greene the smackdown of a lifetime. I wanted to see a down-and-dirty fight in a office, or somewhere, with lots of interesting objects to use in a fight. I wanted it to be real messy.

Fair enough, and good points/ideas as usual. I like your vision of the Greene fight - a lot, actually - but that's not to take anything away from what already is. I like both ideas. What we do get is Bond already shaken by the environmental factors and Greene taking full and cowardly advantage of Bond's unbalance. Bond goes into defense-mode just until he can get his feet planted and then Greene gets that smackdown coming to him. As for interesting objects, there's a fireman's axe, which I would rank above a nailgun/electrical cable in terms of novelty. But I can see where the scene would have benefited from having the 'messy' knob turned up a few notches.

#66 Harmsway

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 07:43 PM

I like your vision of the Greene fight - a lot, actually - but that's not to take anything away from what already is.

Well, fair enough.

I don't think what it already is is anything other than a big cliche that's been replicated in countless action films over and over again, so I find my concept more interesting, if only because it avoids the familiar a bit more than what the finished does.

But my biggest problem with the QUANTUM OF SOLACE climax isn't really what it contains, but just what it is. QUANTUM OF SOLACE boils down to a big explosive climax to stop some "plot," complete with big action-y fights. I was hoping that kind of plotting was put by the wayside after CASINO ROYALE, which so neatly avoided that formulaic plot progression altogether (no major "scheme" for Bond to stop, the villain dies 2/3 of the way through, the Bond/villain confrontation has Bond at the receiving end of the pain, etc. and so forth).

I want to see Bond films avoid such familiar "action flick" narrative, and go for something more interesting, and it really aggravates me that QUANTUM OF SOLACE held to those standard narrative beats. It's just not interesting to see a story structured that way anymore, especially since it's all the Brosnan flicks did.

#67 MattofSteel

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 07:53 PM

Yeah, but what I mean is, I didn't even wince or anything. Not once did I think, "Oh that must of hurt!" or "Ouch!".


Really? That's part of the reason why I loved the Slate fight so much, I really did feel those things.

The fight has such personality, compared to some other action in the film, which is what defines action in Bond films and separates them, typically, from other standard action fare. The problem with the Boat/Plane chases, in my opinion, was that they focuse on general cacophony for excitement and completely abandon that sense of personality.

The Slate fight is a shock to the system when it starts, or should be if you were avoiding spoilers/behind-the-scenes material. Bond spends the first moments of it simply fending for his life, knocking off the surprise attack. I always laugh when he's absolutely berating the guy with the shoe. There's one point where he hits him with a book or binder or something, the camera pans in such a way that the shot is funny, you're wondering what Bond's going to hit him with next. Bond knocking the knife out and breaking the guy's fingers is my favourite bit, the bone crunch is hilarious. You feel that. It's pure cinematic Bond. By this point in the fight Bond has his bearings, and is systematically starting to target whatever arteries he's piercing to bleed the guy out. It's incredibly skillful on Bond's part, a demonstration of the training he no doubt received as part of the 00-section, and a very Flemingesque way to end the fight.

#68 Pierce - Daniel

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 07:56 PM

I think we all have to argree the biggest probelm with Quantum of Solace is Casino Royale.
It was too good. They could never top it.

#69 Judo chop

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 08:05 PM

But my biggest problem with the QUANTUM OF SOLACE climax isn't really what it contains, but just what it is. QUANTUM OF SOLACE boils down to a big explosive climax to stop some "plot," complete with big action-y fights.

About that. What QOS is.

Do you not get any enjoyment from (or see any success in) QOS’s handling of Bond’s character arc? His personal dealings with trust/revenge/Vesper/Yusef? His relationships with Fields, Mathis, Felix or M? The revelation at the enormity and power of Quantum™ and what that might mean for B23 and on?

I would say these things are the thing QOS is comprised of. This is what QOS is. As for the plot… well, it’s just a vehicle for all that. If it is a recycled vehicle, oh well, IMO. No Bond film’s been perfect yet. (Yes, yes, I know... that doesn't mean we shouldn't still strive for perfection. B) )

#70 Harmsway

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 08:12 PM

Do you not get any enjoyment from (or see any success in) QOS’s handling of Bond’s character arc? His personal dealings with trust/revenge/Vesper/Yusef? His relationships with Fields, Mathis, Felix or M? The revelation at the enormity and power of Quantum™ and what that might mean for B23 and on?

I would say these things are the thing QOS is comprised of. This is what QOS is. As for the plot… well, it’s just a vehicle for all that. If it is a recycled vehicle, oh well, IMO. No Bond film’s been perfect yet. (Yes, yes, I know... that doesn't mean we shouldn't still strive for perfection. B) )

I would say that the film's plot, the "vehicle," overwhelms all of the above, more interesting aspects by stealing the narrative focus. QUANTUM OF SOLACE ends up being propelled by an uninteresting plot about water in Bolivia, rather than being propelled by Bond's quest for solace.

Not that those character interactions, or the intrigue created by Quantum, are handled perfectly, either. They have serious issues, even though there are moments where they work like gangbusters.

#71 Mr. Blofeld

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 08:12 PM

It's incredibly skillful on Bond's part, a demonstration of the training he no doubt received as part of the 00-section, and a very Flemingesque way to end the fight.

I also liked the bit where, after Bond shoots the policemen in Bolivia, he rapidly dismantles the gun; he's in a blind panic after such a situation, so he swiftly reverts to his military training instead of standing there in shock, which propels him forward somewhat.

Just my thoughts. B)

#72 DamnCoffee

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 08:22 PM

Agreed, brilliant scene! :tdown:
I also liked the part when he threw a poor, old, defenceless dying man into the middle of a road! Brutal Bond ftw! B)

#73 Mr. Blofeld

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 08:26 PM

Agreed, brilliant scene! :tdown:
I also liked the part when he threw a poor, old, defenceless dying man into the middle of a road! Brutal Bond ftw! B)

What? :tdown:

#74 DamnCoffee

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 08:33 PM

lol, after the police shoot Mathis, Bond throws him to one side then attacks them! So carelessly, it makes me chuckle every time I see it. B)

#75 MattofSteel

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 09:13 PM

It's incredibly skillful on Bond's part, a demonstration of the training he no doubt received as part of the 00-section, and a very Flemingesque way to end the fight.

I also liked the bit where, after Bond shoots the policemen in Bolivia, he rapidly dismantles the gun; he's in a blind panic after such a situation, so he swiftly reverts to his military training instead of standing there in shock, which propels him forward somewhat.

Just my thoughts. B)


That was cool too.

#76 Mr. Blofeld

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 09:40 PM

lol, after the police shoot Mathis, Bond throws him to one side then attacks them! So carelessly, it makes me chuckle every time I see it. B)

Well, Mathis drops out of his hands; he's covered in blood, dude. :tdown:

#77 DamnCoffee

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 10:07 PM

He doesn't! After Mathis is shot, Bond throws him to one side then murders the two police officers. After they are disarmed Bond rushes to his aide.

#78 danielcraigisjamesbond007

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 10:09 PM

He doesn't! After Mathis is shot, Bond throws him to one side then murderers the two police officers. After they are disarmed Bond rushes to his aide.

kills*

Yep. It's true. After Mathis is shot, Bond "tosses" him to the side, then shoots the police officers, does something to their guns, then returns to Mathis.

#79 MattofSteel

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 01:10 AM

Well, Bond was facing two armed enemies. He didn't exactly have time to gingerly set Mathis down.

I've never been comfortable with the ambiguity of the scene, IE is Mathis used as a human shield or not by Bond. Personally I don't think so. I mean literally, he is, but I don't think it was Bond's intention. Clearly he didn't anticipate the police would just simply fire on him.

#80 DamnCoffee

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 09:57 AM

I don't think Mathis was used as human shield, either. I think Bond was in a state of shock and didn't know what to do. Plus the subtitles read "He's moving, kill him!" refering to Mathis. So they weren't aiming for Bond anyway.

#81 tdalton

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 10:19 AM

My rankings:

Car chase: B+
Siena chase: B+
Bond vs. Slate: A
Boat chase: B+
Tosca: A+
Plane Chase/Free-fall: C+
Elevator Fight/Escape: A+
Bar Escape: A-
Perla De Las Dunas: A+

#82 danielcraigisjamesbond007

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 01:55 PM

It's still far from perfect, though. The editing looks ten times better on a smaller screen than in a cinema, but it's still deeply flawed and at times rather confusing.

It's funny, I was watching the film last night and when those "shaky camera" shots came on screen, I thought to myself, "Am I watching an episode of Cops?" I mean, I like the idea that they're trying to get up close to the action, but it's WAAAAAY too close for me.

Overally, I give the film a 7/10 rating. Good, but could have been better with a director with better eye for shooting exciting action (seriously, there is almost no suspense in any of the thrill-scenes in QoS) and a more focused script.

In fairness, didn't Haggis turn in the script for Quantum just a few hours before the writers guild of America strike? If that is the case, then he might have been in a rush to get it finished...

#83 bondrules

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 02:14 PM

The more I watch QoS, the more it irritates me that M is all over the place & her demeanor is that she is clueless and more than anything with zero poise. IMO, the head of MI6 would be someone who would inspire confidence.

Also, how does Tanner know that Bond "shot and threw someone off the roof in bregenz" ? Makes no sense.

Last but not least, I really don't get the production deciding on going into all of these exotic locations. At least in South America, where they wasted 8 weeks.

I was part of 2 scenes. At The Party, I can tell you that they didn't capture the essence of that place whatsoever. Opportunity wasted.

When I saw how little of the Grand Andean exterior they kept, I wondered if putting up with all that heat and humidity was worthwhile.

#84 Judo chop

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 02:38 PM

The more I watch QoS, the more it irritates me that M is all over the place & her demeanor is that she is clueless and more than anything with zero poise. IMO, the head of MI6 would be someone who would inspire confidence.

I agree. Though I didn’t get there from watching QOS more. I’ve been there since about… um…

Goldeneye?

Dench is a name, and one EON can’t seem to justify getting rid of. Her take on M, in writing and in execution, has pretty much irritated me from the start. She's everybit as wishy-washy in CR. If not moreso.

Her's was a reasonable experiment that quickly proved to be the wrong course. IMO.

Also, how does Tanner know that Bond "shot and threw someone off the roof in bregenz" ? Makes no sense.

Eyewitnesses? There was a giant shootout through the restuarant after all. And he was on a rooftop in plain view. Either that, or Greene and co. could have sent in false reports.

#85 bondrules

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 02:46 PM

Eyewitnesses? There was a giant shootout through the restuarant after all. And he was on a rooftop in plain view. Either that, or Greene and co. could have sent in false reports.


I know, but Tanner tells M of the "shoot&drop" right after it happens, live it seems. I just don't see why Forster has so many issues with time. There are plenty of techniques to let the audience know w/o making it look like lazy filmmaking.

#86 Judo chop

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 02:54 PM

I just don't see why Forster has so many issues with time.

Seriously. Being as least part Swiss, you'd think he'd be a subject matter expert. B)


:tdown:

Now really seriously... yeah, it is a little annoying. It's not forehead slapping on a Moonraker level, but it's annoying. It seems like a little care really goes a long way towards making a film that stands the test of time.

No pun intended.

#87 bondrules

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 02:59 PM

I just don't see why Forster has so many issues with time.

Seriously. Being as least part Swiss, you'd think he'd be a subject matter expert. :tdown:


:tdown:

Now really seriously... yeah, it is a little annoying. It's not forehead slapping on a Moonraker level, but it's annoying. It seems like a little care really goes a long way towards making a film that stands the test of time.

No pun intended.


LOL. You are so right Judo. B)

#88 DamnCoffee

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 03:02 PM

The more I watch QoS, the more it irritates me that M is all over the place & her demeanor is that she is clueless and more than anything with zero poise. IMO, the head of MI6 would be someone who would inspire confidence.

I agree. Though I didn’t get there from watching QOS more. I’ve been there since about… um…

Goldeneye?

Dench is a name, and one EON can’t seem to justify getting rid of. Her take on M, in writing and in execution, has pretty much irritated me from the start. She's everybit as wishy-washy in CR. If not moreso.

Her's was a reasonable experiment that quickly proved to be the wrong course. IMO.

Also, how does Tanner know that Bond "shot and threw someone off the roof in bregenz" ? Makes no sense.

Eyewitnesses? There was a giant shootout through the restuarant after all. And he was on a rooftop in plain view. Either that, or Greene and co. could have sent in false reports.



The thing is...

There is CCTV footage, so Tanner really would've known that Bond didn't shoot him!

AND...

M: You shot him at point blank and threw him off a roof. I'd hardly call that showing restraint!
*Bond says nothing, nor show his innocence. Yeah, nice one James. B)*

#89 bondrules

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 03:04 PM

*Bond says nothing, nor show his innocence. Yeah, nice one James


And that is a turning point in the movie, 'cause it's the last straw, and M cancels Bonds cards, etc.

"Let's get Bond from A to B regardless"
......Forster + writers + mute Craig

#90 DamnCoffee

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 03:08 PM

Bond doesn't have a reason NOT to say anything though.

Why not say anything? And risk getting your passport and cards cancelled? It's just stupid. B)