82 replies to this topic

[Mr. Blofeld]

Then it's not Fleming's Bond; despite all of his prejudices and frailties, he was a deeply romantic, chivalric, and yes, sentimental man. I could never see him treat Mathis in such an expedient and ruthless manner.

I think I prefer your viewpoint from last year, Mr. Sentimental:

I completely disagree; the two examples you cite are completely unrelated. When Quarrel was immolated by Dr No's Dragon Tank, Bond was captured immediately, and therefore there was no time for covering his tracks by hiding him out of clear view. When Bey was murdered, there was no incrimination involved whatsoever, so hiding his body would have been unnecessary.

The truth is, something like this has never really happened in the franchise before; Bond being planted with the beaten, unconscious body of an ally, who is then shot by police, who are disposed of by Bond, who then comforts the ally until he dies, then plants his body in a skip and steals his wallet, to make it look like a robbery and keep him out of the bloody street, as a mark of respect. As it was a pretty grubby ally, there wouldn't be any nicer alternatives to a skip/dumpster, and keeping him on the street would be a bad move.

Also, the motif of bodies being placed in car-boots adds a meta-narrative to the two-film story arc (Mathis getting Obanno and his henchman placed in Le Chiffre's heavy's car boot; Mr. White being dumped in the boot of Bond's Aston Martin; Mathis being planted in Bond's car boot; and Greene being shoved into his own car boot by Bond). You could say it symbolises the hard reality of the world of espionage; never knowing who will be placed next in the dreaded boot/coffin.

[AMC Hornet]

Haggis & Forster made their point, though: I'm sure they didn't expect everyone to like the scene, but we're talking about it, aren't we? Just like there are people who would have liked to have seen Tracy survive her honeymoon and partner up with Bond in DAF, but the majority - however upset by the 'downer' ending of OHMSS - would have hated that.

Personally, I agree that Bond should have propped Mathis against the skip with a gun in his hand, which would confuse everyone for a while, buying Bond and Camille time to investigate, but what's done is done. And taking Mathis' money wasn't an attempt to make the killing look like robbery - only a victim's killer would try that. Simply, Mathis didn't need the money anymore and Bond did.

"Just because you're dead doesn't mean you can't still be useful." Perhaps that should be Mathis' epitaph.

Edited by AMC Hornet, 10 October 2010 - 06:22 PM.

[Iroquois]

I think people are also forgetting about the fact that Bond avenges the death of Mathis when he kills the chief of police.

'You and I had a mutual friend!' (Bang)

(^ I actually love that moment in the film. No-one seems to mention it and the only time I've seen it mentioned it was referred to negatively. Personally I thought it was delivered excellently by Craig, and I like the way he fires the gun so quickly after the line so that it doesn't seem like a cheesy, out of place one-liner, but more of a fantastic 'F you' to a nasty corrupt man.)

[The Shark]

I think people are also forgetting about the fact that Bond avenges the death of Mathis when he kills the chief of police.

'You and I had a mutual friend!' (Bang)

(^ I actually love that moment in the film. No-one seems to mention it and the only time I've seen it mentioned it was referred to negatively. Personally I thought it was delivered excellently by Craig, and I like the way he fires the gun so quickly after the line so that it doesn't seem like a cheesy, out of place one-liner, but more of a fantastic 'F you' to a nasty corrupt man.)

Nobody mentions it because it's executed so poorly, lasting for a mere fraction of a second - With Craig's delivery sounding like a constipated variation of "Say hello to my little friend!"

An insignificant afterthought of a scene.

[Iroquois]

Fair enough if you feel that way, but nonetheless it shows that Mathis' death has affected Bond, and although he stays true to his mission, he does go out of his way to avenge Mathis.

[Mr. Blofeld]

An insignificant afterthought of a scene.

...sayeth an insignificant afterthought of a man.

[juepucta]

He wants it to make it look like a robbery. That's all.

Mathis, like Bond, was a pro and knows how it is.

-G.

[AMC Hornet]

He wants it to make it look like a robbery. That's all.

-G.

Why?

Edited by AMC Hornet, 11 October 2010 - 02:08 AM.

[Agent Spriggan Ominae]

It's Bond. Spare me this sentimental rubbish.

Then it's not Fleming's Bond. Despite all of his prejudices and frailties, he was a deeply romantic, chivalric, and yes, sentimental man. I could never see him treat Mathis in such an expedient and ruthless manner.

You see that's a beauty of this scene. Sure Fleming's Bond was sentimental, as is Craig's Bond. But both of them always tried their best to not show it. Most of the romantic musings, the sentimentality in Fleming's Bond was internalized. We would see this through his thoughts which we read. A little harder when it comes to big screen. Can't have Craig talking to himself all the time. However if you watch Craig's performance in the scene and really pay attention then you can hear what he's saying loud and clear. It's like Craig's face and actions are screaming you were a dear, dear friend Mathis and I'm so very sorry and guilty but I can't let this pain, this wound jam me up now, you're dead and gone, just a corpse that I must be rid of for now.

The paradox of this scene is that while people are up in arms about how how disrespectful, uncaring of Bond to just throw away his friend but the whole act is infact very emotional and we get a brief hint of Bond's humaity before the armor bangs shut. Bond does feel very guilty about what happened to Mathis and Mathis even lets him know that he understands with his dying words no less "forgive yourself". Emotions like that could paralyze and destroy a normal person but Bond can't afford to be normal. He needs to stuff his feeling and get on with the job. It's deeply symbolic when Bond discards Mathis in the trash bin. it is a burial of sorts. He's throwing away more then just a corpse. It's whole emotional burden of what has just happened, thrown out. Out of sight, out of mind.

In the novel Bond actually walked back to look at Quarrel's burned corpse to say goodbye and he felt very guilty about how he lead his friend to his death and to make it worse Quarrel follwed him willingly and knowingly to his firey demise. Bond remembers how Quarrel told him to take out a life insurance policy. He smelled his death and still followed Bond. Yet when Quarrel first gets fried Bond tell's himself "there was no time to think of Quarrel". Bond was still in the thick of it so he couldn't get all sentimental. Bond and Camille were still very much in thick of it. I'd say falling into the hands of the Bolivian police is just as scary as a dragon. And what did Bond do for Quarrel's body? He covered his eyes with sand. The very least he could do but imagine if we had Craig scooping up some dust from the road and covering Mathis's eyes with it. That'd be a whole 'nother topic lol.

[Mr_Wint]

Seeing how totally incompetent the police officers are ("He's moving. Shoot him!"), I think it would have been far more scary to meet the dragon.

[Lachesis]

The scene always strikes me as jarring, inconsistent and unnecessary, one of those pretentious 'statement' scenes that, for me at least, indicates the guy in charge doesn't get Bond at all. Overall I wouldn't call it overly harsh or conversely chivalrous and compassionate as on inspection neither label make any sense. One for the Twilight crowd I suspect.

Edited by Lachesis, 11 October 2010 - 01:16 PM.

[Mr_Wint]

Fixed.

The scene movie always strikes me as jarring, inconsistent and unnecessary, one of those pretentious 'statement' scenes films that, for me at least, indicates the guy in charge doesn't get Bond at all. Overall I wouldn't call it overly harsh or conversely chivalrous and compassionate as on inspection neither label make any sense. One for the Twilight crowd I suspect.

[Mr. Blofeld]

Would you knock it off, Wint? If you hate the damn film so much, go down to CraigNotBond; don't deliberately try to piss people off over here...

[DaveBond21]

An insignificant afterthought of a scene.

...sayeth an insignificant afterthought of a man.

I do wonder if there is anything that makes "The Shark" smile.

Maybe sunlight glinting off morning dew. Or the face of a newborn baby.

Maybe.



___________________________________________________________

[Lachesis]

nothing to see here!

Edited by Lachesis, 12 October 2010 - 01:55 PM.

[The Shark]

Would you knock it off, Wint? If you hate the damn film so much, go down to CraigNotBond; don't deliberately try to piss people off over here...

He's just expressing his view.

Please learn some self-restraint.

Oh, and only a man profoundly insecure in himself resorts to such cheap ad hominem attacks in the face of a mere statement.

I do wonder if there is anything that makes "The Shark" smile.

Maybe sunlight glinting off morning dew. Or the face of a newborn baby.

Maybe.

Reading the Cb.n forums maketh The Shark smile.

[Guy Haines]

This is actually one of my favorite secens from the entire franchise. IMO one of the most powerful. It goes pretty deep and it is perfectly in character with Craig's Bond and ties in with what we saw in Royale. The deaths of Vesper and Mathis are when we see Bond most devastated. He's hurting when Mathis dies. And how does our Bond cope with pain? By detachment. In this business Bond can't afford to be sentimental. He needs his armor to keep him safe. Look what happened last time it got "stripped away". He was troubled by Vesper's death. But he needed to get on. Hence the whole "Job's done. The bitch is dead." line.

The whole Mathis in the trash can bit is keeping with this aspect of Bond's character. Bond is clearly in agony over Mathis's death but he can't afford to be sentimental. even more so than with Vesper in Royale given everything else that was going on. If we could know what was going on in Bond's head when he throws Mathis's body away. There's almost a slight hint of contempt towards the corpse. Like he's angry at it for bothering him so much. Emotions like that could get him killed. Part of the running theme of Quantum of Solace and Casino Royale is that being emotional or sentimental in the world that Bond inhabits only leads to death. Like Vesper says, "doesn't it bother you? killing thoes people?" "Well I wouldn't be very good at my job if it did."

There's a contrast between Camille and Bond. And the trash can bit highlights it beautifully. "Is that how you treat your friends?" "he wouldn't care." But Camille does. Hence why she makes a somewhat awkward agent. She would have killed Medrano but if not for Bond she would have died too. Twice she was saved by Bond from a situation she got into because she was being ruled by her emotions. Her mission was personal. We get the payoff with the whole "Do you think they can sleep now?" "I don't think the dead care about vengence." Just us people that are still alive. Bond is evolving. He's learned something from royale and now in Quantum we are seeing the therory in practice. There's kinda of a red herring in the story making it seem like Bond is going out of control trying to get revenge and killing people left and right. The truth was it was always about the mission. Finding the men responsible for the whole affair in Royale. And that he does.

The disposal of Mathis is uncomfortable for the audience - I certainly found it so - but you make a case for why it happened in the way it did. Where I certainly agree is that QoS isn't a 21st century remake of LTK, with Bond on a pure mission of revenge. It always struck me as Bond wanting answers, and as soon as he knows that Vesper's "boyfriend" is probably still alive, off he goes, using the mission, the trail from the money in Mitchell's bank account to Greene's coup d'etat plan as cover for what he really wanted - to confront Yusef. A pity he had to go all around the houses to do it. I'd have preferred the whole "Yusef" angle to have been integral to the main plot, rather than something hinted at throughout but only resolved in the very last scene.

[byline]

^ Good post, Spriggan Ominae. You nailed it.

Yes, very good post. I hope those viewers who have clearly (and blindly) missed the point of the scene, take a moment to re-view it.

I agree with the points both of you made. You and Spriggan Ominae did indeed nail it, IMO . . . and not in a sentimental way, but in a "this is how a human being who has this training and background would react in these circumstances" way.

And as for people not getting why Bond is making it look like a robbery (however transient that illusion will be), wasn't he simply showing what he'd learned from Mathis? "Being dead does not mean one cannot be useful."

Edited by byline, 13 October 2010 - 02:55 PM.

[Chief of SIS]

It's Bond. Give me more sentimental rubbish. I think all my favorite Bond scenes (besides the obvious classic actions scenes. Grant on the train with Bond, Underwater fight in 'TB', other awesomeness) are the ones with emotion. Timothy Dalton discussing not being the next one to marry in 'LTK', Brosnan brushing the hair out of Elektra's face after killing her in 'TWINE' (only emotion found in that movie), and of course 'CR' in general though the shower scene sticks out as my all time favorite Bond scene. It's the subtleness of emotion throughout the films. Bond just showing a sliver of emotion several times in a film just shows how cold he is. Amidst all the horror that actually surrounds Bond films, he never truly falters. Just like his interaction with Mathis, he understands the emotional aspect of the situation but that there are bigger things at play. Emotionally deal with it, Breathe and move on. It's what makes James Bond James Bond.

[The Shark]

It's Bond. Give me more sentimental rubbish. I think all my favorite Bond scenes (besides the obvious classic actions scenes. Grant on the train with Bond, Underwater fight in 'TB', other awesomeness) are the ones with emotion. Timothy Dalton discussing not being the next one to marry in 'LTK', Brosnan brushing the hair out of Elektra's face after killing her in 'TWINE' (only emotion found in that movie), and of course 'CR' in general though the shower scene sticks out as my all time favorite Bond scene. It's the subtleness of emotion throughout the films. Bond just showing a sliver of emotion several times in a film just shows how cold he is. Amidst all the horror that actually surrounds Bond films, he never truly falters. Just like his interaction with Mathis, he understands the emotional aspect of the situation but that there are bigger things at play. Emotionally deal with it, Breathe and move on. It's what makes James Bond James Bond.

Agreed. Bond is a man of heart, not an opportunist sociopath.

[Lachesis]

It's Bond. Spare me this sentimental rubbish.

Then it's not Fleming's Bond. Despite all of his prejudices and frailties, he was a deeply romantic, chivalric, and yes, sentimental man. I could never see him treat Mathis in such an expedient and ruthless manner.

You see that's a beauty of this scene. Sure Fleming's Bond was sentimental, as is Craig's Bond. But both of them always tried their best to not show it. Most of the romantic musings, the sentimentality in Fleming's Bond was internalized. We would see this through his thoughts which we read. A little harder when it comes to big screen. Can't have Craig talking to himself all the time. However if you watch Craig's performance in the scene and really pay attention then you can hear what he's saying loud and clear. It's like Craig's face and actions are screaming you were a dear, dear friend Mathis and I'm so very sorry and guilty but I can't let this pain, this wound jam me up now, you're dead and gone, just a corpse that I must be rid of for now.

The paradox of this scene is that while people are up in arms about how how disrespectful, uncaring of Bond to just throw away his friend but the whole act is infact very emotional and we get a brief hint of Bond's humaity before the armor bangs shut. Bond does feel very guilty about what happened to Mathis and Mathis even lets him know that he understands with his dying words no less "forgive yourself". Emotions like that could paralyze and destroy a normal person but Bond can't afford to be normal. He needs to stuff his feeling and get on with the job. It's deeply symbolic when Bond discards Mathis in the trash bin. it is a burial of sorts. He's throwing away more then just a corpse. It's whole emotional burden of what has just happened, thrown out. Out of sight, out of mind.

In the novel Bond actually walked back to look at Quarrel's burned corpse to say goodbye and he felt very guilty about how he lead his friend to his death and to make it worse Quarrel follwed him willingly and knowingly to his firey demise. Bond remembers how Quarrel told him to take out a life insurance policy. He smelled his death and still followed Bond. Yet when Quarrel first gets fried Bond tell's himself "there was no time to think of Quarrel". Bond was still in the thick of it so he couldn't get all sentimental. Bond and Camille were still very much in thick of it. I'd say falling into the hands of the Bolivian police is just as scary as a dragon. And what did Bond do for Quarrel's body? He covered his eyes with sand. The very least he could do but imagine if we had Craig scooping up some dust from the road and covering Mathis's eyes with it. That'd be a whole 'nother topic lol.

But the act remains gratuitous and unecessary, imo to indulge it has real consequences to the character - feelings of senstivity are surely denied by the blatant lack of respect and any sense of cold prefessionalism is denied by the blatant wastefulness of the act. Covering the eyes of Quarrel was a conscious act of respect supported by a universally understood rationale - this scene comes across to me as the very antithesis of that, all in all it seems pretentious symbolism is being condoned in the face of the fact it could only come from some petulant child ruled by out of control hormones... For myself at least that is not how I see or want to see Bond, the man.

Edited by Lachesis, 15 October 2010 - 11:57 AM.

[krypt]

watching Q0S again last night, the scene was still jarring and still left me asking "why?" - it's almost as if he's so upset/angry about Mathis' death he's overcompensating trying to prove to himself that he's detatched and "objective"

[Chief of SIS]

I tried asking myself earlier, but what choice does he have? It's better Bond takes the wallet than some thug taking the cash. He can't leave the body in the street, he can't call the cops, he can't bring his body anywhere. He's got a dumpster. A mini sanctuary in a filthy area. Sadly if I was in the same situation I might have done the same.

These thoughts are depressing.