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Theory on the 1960's timeline


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#1 Glenn

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 09:27 AM

If this has been pointed out before, then I apologise, I couldn't find it.

There has been a lot of discussion about how Colonel Sun and Devil May Care fit into the Bond literary world, some think that CS takes place after DMC, or Colonel Sun no longer counts. I recently finished rereading Thunderball, and I realised that many people were working from the publishing date rather than the adventure date. This is what I think.

In Thunderball, chapter 7, Blofeld's letter to the prime minister clearly states that the adventure takes place between 3 June 1959 to 10 June 1959. Thunderball was published in 1961 which means the mission was two years before. So...

Thunderball 1959

In OHMSS Bond has been looking for Blofeld for a little over a year, presumably The Spy who Loved Me takes place within this year, as do the short stories in Octopussy.

On Her Majesty's Secret Service 1960

A year later Bond has gone to pieces and is offered a final mission to Japan.

You Only Live Twice 1961

Bond has been missing for over a year until he shows up to assassinate M.

The Man with the Golden Gun 1962

And finally on the first page of Colonel Sun it is stated that Bond was shot by Scaramanga last summer.

Colonel Sun 1963

If Devil May Care takes place in 1968 then there is a whole 5 year gap since Colonel Sun. Even if an extra year is added for The Spy who loved me / Octopussy then there is still a four year gap.

At least, this is my theory. :(

#2 spynovelfan

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 12:17 PM

I think it's a waste of time trying to find timelines in the Bond novels (or the films, for that matter). James Bond is always in his mid-thrties, for starters, and Fleming made all sorts of mistakes and was clearly not interested in having a precise and consistence chronology in this way. Colonel Sun has to be set after 1965, though, because in Chapter 14 Ariadne claims that Penkovski killed himself in that year.

#3 MHazard

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 04:33 PM

One valuable resource in piecing together a timeline is the book James Bond a Chronology, although I think sometimes that author takes Fleming details to literally and concludes certain books took place earlier than they did. Based on the obit in YOLT, however, I believe your chronology is off. The Man With the Golden Gun ends in Feb. 1964. Bond marries Tracy on New Years Day 1962 (fixed by YOLT obit). She is killed the same day. Bond has fallen to pieces and is sent to Japan in August 1962 (Tracy has been dead 8 months). He kills Blofeld and goes missing for a year, re-appearing in London in August 1963. He tries to kill M, is un-brainwashed by Sir James Molony and is sent off to kill Scaramanga in early 1964. Following which he recuperates with Mary Goodnight.

Both Col. Sun and DMC take place after TMWGG and would seem mutually exclusive, not because of the dates but because each posits a different reaction from Bond to the events of OHMSS, YOLT and TMWGG.

#4 Scrambled Eggs

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 04:38 PM

One valuable resource in piecing together a timeline is the book James Bond a Chronology, although I think sometimes that author takes Fleming details to literally and concludes certain books took place earlier than they did.


Taking Fleming too literally when trying to put together a timeline sounds a great way of getting yourself into a right tizzy.

#5 MHazard

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 08:14 PM

I think we all fall into the trap of giving more thought to certain details than Fleming gave them. James Bond, A Chronology contains all sorts of glossaries and notes that are extremely useful reference if you're writing fan fiction (I've referred to it several times). As has been pointed out, Fleming is not always consistent on things. But the obit in YOLT does seem to set a time frame for the last three novels.

#6 spynovelfan

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 07:51 AM

The reason people refer to that obituary, though, is because it is almost the only point in the entire series in which Fleming gives us any dates or context or background material for Bond at all. And it came right at the very end of the series. Look at the Snelling book to see the problem. Fleming researched and thought and then wrote the things in six weeks flat, and he hardly revised. If he had, we might not have the books at all because they're not those sorts of book: in many cases, the plots simply do not stand up to close analysis. Casino Royale has British intelligence sending a secret agent to gamble with an enemy asset to humiliate him. That is patently absurd, but rarely commented on. But the odd comment in the book about his previous war experience is dissected by fans as though it were written in stone. Fleming was not interested in that level of realism, as can be seen by the plot and concept and tone of his novels.

People look at the events of Live and Let Die, for instance, and when must they have occurred after Casino Royale. Fleming gives some clues at the beginning of the novel, because he wants it to be a sequel to his first... in some ways. In some ways, though, he didn't, because he wasn't sure how successful CR would be when he was writing Live and Let Die. His references to the events of Casino Royale are loosely stitched together, briefly passed over and unconvincing - he'd also forgotten the ending, where Bond is looking to hunt down the spies. In LALD, it's turned into a revenge angle for Vesper's death - it's really not quite the same thing. Smersh actually saved his life in CR. Similarly, Bond falls head over heels in love with a woman who looks almost identical to Vesper, and doesn't even consider Vesper for a moment. She even admits to being on the villains' side, and he still trusts her! It's a stand-alone: all the novels are, really, but some have more details thrown in than others to give the illusion of a series. Nothing more. He falls in love with a woman every book, defeats a major villain every book: it's the same story told different ways. Like many series. Fleming usually puts in the obligatory signpost that we're now 'a short time after the last adventure', but that's it. I've read several posts on this site saying that Bond is scarred by Vesper's betrayal and the events of CR - this seems to be based on a passing reference to her grave in OHMSS. But that is just a passing reference to give the necessary illusion of continuity, that he is not floating in time as he really is: if Bond had really been scarred in that way, we'd surely have heard a lot more about it, especially in LALD.

I think it's fun and interesting to look at some of this, but I tend to lose interest as soon as it is claimed as hard fact that such-and-such a book took place between October 12 and 26 1958, especially with the amount of twisting oneself into knots one has to do to get to that kind of conclusion. Fleming didn't even know whether Bond had killed in cold blood or not - From Russia With Love directly contradicts Casino Royale - so I think common sense and any knowledge of his working methods suggests he did not have 'high-level' or any other kind of coherent consistent chronologies or back-stories for his novels. If he had done that sort of work, I think he'd have put dates at the start of his chapters.

#7 Double-Oh Agent

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 09:27 AM

One valuable resource in piecing together a timeline is the book James Bond a Chronology, although I think sometimes that author takes Fleming details to literally and concludes certain books took place earlier than they did. Based on the obit in YOLT, however, I believe your chronology is off. The Man With the Golden Gun ends in Feb. 1964. Bond marries Tracy on New Years Day 1962 (fixed by YOLT obit). She is killed the same day. Bond has fallen to pieces and is sent to Japan in August 1962 (Tracy has been dead 8 months). He kills Blofeld and goes missing for a year, re-appearing in London in August 1963. He tries to kill M, is un-brainwashed by Sir James Molony and is sent off to kill Scaramanga in early 1964. Following which he recuperates with Mary Goodnight.

Both Col. Sun and DMC take place after TMWGG and would seem mutually exclusive, not because of the dates but because each posits a different reaction from Bond to the events of OHMSS, YOLT and TMWGG.

In the first couple of pages of Colonel Sun (released in 1968), Kingsley Amis writes that the story takes place in September the year after The Man With The Golden Gun affair (1964), which would place it in the year 1965. Meanwhile, during the run up to the release of Devil May Care, Sebastian Faulks and/or IFP said his story occurs in 1967, so there you go -- The Man With The Golden Gun then Colonel Sun then Devil May Care.

#8 spynovelfan

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 10:04 AM

In the first couple of pages of Colonel Sun (released in 1968), Kingsley Amis writes that the story takes place in September the year after The Man With The Golden Gun affair (1964), which would place it in the year 1965. Meanwhile, during the run up to the release of Devil May Care, Sebastian Faulks and/or IFP said his story occurs in 1967, so there you go -- The Man With The Golden Gun then Colonel Sun then Devil May Care.


That doesn't work because, as already mentioned, in Chapter 14 of Colonel Sun Ariadne says: 'You remember Oleg Penkovski, the GRU colonel who spied for the West with that English businessman, Greville Wynne, and committed suicide in prison in 1965.' This means that the earliest CS takes place is in 1966. 'You remember Russia's invasion of Georgia in 2008' is not something anyone will say until 2009 or later.

Amis' reference to the Scaramanga adventure taking place 'last summer' is simply convention. Bond does not live in real time. An extreme example is the films - do you really think that the active agent who took on Dr No can still have been serving after the Cold War ended, over four decades later? The books work the same way, but it's easier to fudge because there's fewer years. Each book takes place 'a few months' or something similar after the last one. But together they all take place over a much longer period of time. There are two timelines, both of them hazy. That's how most series work, and I'm amazed so many Bond fans don't seem able to grasp it!

Faulks' book doesn't work as you've described either, because Bond starts the book recovering from the events of Golden Gun, not Colonel Sun. If it were the latter, you would expect him to do just as Amis did when referring to Scaramanga's slug in the abdomen, and refer to the rather brutal torture he's most recently been through. Similarly, M would be the more likely man to have gone on a sabbatical after Colonel Sun, and one would expect at least a passing reference to the fact that he was recently kidnapped. We don't have any of this. Here's a quote from an interview with Faulks in the Times about this:

'"The way I attacked it was trying to think of something the villain could do that wasn’t gold, wasn’t diamonds, wasn’t bird droppings – which is what Dr No is incredibly into. And I thought, well, what about drugs? Because I’d already decided it was going to be a period piece. And I figured the last novel was set in 1965, and Bond was in a very bad way and needed time to get back on full form, so it had to be 1967."'

I think this quote reveals precisely the problem with doing this sort of thing: the author is not using the same logic at all! By the last novel, does he mean Golden Gun or Colonel Sun? It can't be either. Fleming died in 1964, and there's absolutely no reason for thinking he had broken the habit of the rest of the series and written something set in the future. Colonel Sun has to be 1966 at the earliest, as explained above. But Faulks probably just looked at the publication date of Golden Gun, and went with that. The next piece of logic is equally thin - he was in a bad way after it and needed time to get back to full form 'so it had to be 1967'. Two years - why? Why not four months? Why, frankly, didn't Faulks go for 1968, which was a year of massive social upheaval, precisely 40 years before the publication date of his novel, and which would have given him a real opportunity to use his most loved location, Paris? Because he's a writer, and he thought of something else, that's why.

A close examination of the Bond novels doesn't reveal a consistent chronology: it reveals very starkly that neither Faulks nor Amis nor Fleming thought very closely about the issue.

#9 David Schofield

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 10:09 AM

'"The way I attacked it was trying to think of something the villain could do that wasn’t gold, wasn’t diamonds, wasn’t bird droppings – which is what Dr No is incredibly into. And I thought, well, what about drugs? Because I’d already decided it was going to be a period piece. And I figured the last novel was set in 1965, and Bond was in a very bad way and needed time to get back on full form, so it had to be 1967."'


Yeah, Spy. But when you consider the amount of Bondian knowledge Faulks had/has, and any research he might have done, its quite feasible to believe that he thought the last Fleming "novel" chronogically was the Octopussy/Livin Davylights, etc, collection. :( :)

When one considers what Faulks produced and believed to represent "writing as Ian Fleming", and reproducing the Fleming style, it is quite easy to believe that Faulks had never even heard of Colonel Sun...

#10 marktmurphy

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 10:55 AM

Casino Royale has British intelligence sending a secret agent to gamble with an enemy asset to humiliate him. That is patently absurd, but rarely commented on.


Although not that much more absurd than some of Fleming's actual WWII schemes! Mind you, most of those didn't get much past the planning stage...

I agree on never worrying too much about Bond continuity, whether in the films or the books. I was taken aback that some fans decried the Casino Royale movie when it was said that it would be rebooting Bond: 'but what about the continuity!' they exclaimed. I simply couldn't understand what they were talking about: the only moment to have ever changed Bond's life was his marriage to Tracy, and that didn't actually effect him that much apart from a token wistful look every five films or so. The rest of it actively destroys any attempt at continuity: he's a 78 year old who looks like a man in his 40s!

#11 dee-bee-five

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 11:10 AM

I think we all fall into the trap of giving more thought to certain details than Fleming gave them.


Ah, the very definition of a fan.

#12 spynovelfan

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 12:18 PM

When one considers what Faulks produced and believed to represent "writing as Ian Fleming", and reproducing the Fleming style, it is quite easy to believe that Faulks had never even heard of Colonel Sun...


I seem to remember he did mention Amis in one of his interviews. But yes, a very skimmed reading of the Bond books, I think, albeit with a notebook by his side. He mentions the brainwashing (unconvincingly, I think: I don't think anyone who has been through that and seen their new bride murdered in front of their eyes would flippantly refer to the 'two Bs' of brainwashing and bereavement with a near-stranger), but he then forgets where it took place in a later scene where he has Bond marvel at finally being in the Soviet Union.

But Fleming was sometimes nearly as lax with this sort of thing. 'Bond had never killed in cold blood'! That's a crucial part of his back-story as presented in the first novel, surely. He also has some dreadful plot points, such as Bond being sent to Japan to get over the death of his wife, whereupon whom should he meet out there by sheer chance but, oh look, the chap who murdered her, who's also gone there to hide out. Come on! But he did it entertainingly, and rarely repeated himself. Faulks made the same errors all over again. Bond confronts a man called Goldfinger, and then golly gosh isn't that a coincidence he has a meeting with M who tells him that's the very chappie he needs to go after. Works once, and only just. Faulks has Bond see Gorner on a street corner while he's wandering around Europe (not reading any newspapers at all, it would seem, from his conversation with May) - and look, look, that chap he just happened to glimpse while thinking about the fact that he has actually now taken up tennis so don't be surprised if he plays it later on, well, he's the chap we know is a rotter (but we don't seem to have any details on why, exactly), and why don't you go out to France and just, well, go out to France.

But I think the same applies to all of them - when these sorts of thing are so inconsistent, going back over every detail and deciding that the writers deliberately changed the first Tuesday of a month to a Wednesday to fit in with some larger overall timeline or whatever... it's silly.

#13 Scrambled Eggs

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 12:21 PM

Each book takes place 'a few months' or something similar after the last one. But together they all take place over a much longer period of time. There are two timelines, both of them hazy. That's how most series work, and I'm amazed so many Bond fans don't seem able to grasp it!


I don't think its an inability to grasp it. Its an unwillingness. Its silly but fun to convince yourself that the books form some sort of ongoing narrative.

Obviously Fleming wasn't interested in providing Bond with a detailed backstory but I think (and of course this is just more pointless speculation) that if he'd lived he'd have tried to change that.
He obviously began to realise that his readers wanted more details on who exactly Bond is - hence the obituary. Perhaps in later Fleming novels he'd have tried to write a bit more about Bond's past. Maybe write his own Young Bond/ War Bond book? Maybe even do what other authors have done and slightly rewrite earlier books to try and shoehorn them into a coherent biography of Bond.

#14 spynovelfan

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 12:27 PM

Casino Royale has British intelligence sending a secret agent to gamble with an enemy asset to humiliate him. That is patently absurd, but rarely commented on.


Although not that much more absurd than some of Fleming's actual WWII schemes! Mind you, most of those didn't get much past the planning stage...


Well, yes, Fleming did come up with some absurd operational ideas during the war. But this is another level of absurd, something that could not even have reached a planning stage. We'll put up a huge amount of money to gamble at a casino with a gangster, in the hopes of humiliating him... It doesn't even begin to be workable, and Fleming clearly thought that he wanted to have his character gamble first and created an operation that would make it possible second. All of Fleming's novels are essentially polished up first drafts - as is Faulks', I would say! - and the bit that shows this most are the plots. Very few of them stand up to any sort of reason or logic. But the prose, the atmosphere, authority, verve, and the sheer 'communicated excitement', as one reviewer put it, carry you along despite that. And that's fine. But a writer who comes up with that sort of plot isn't poring over a calendar making sure every book in his series joins up chronologically.

#15 marktmurphy

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 12:33 PM

Bond confronts a man called Goldfinger, and then golly gosh isn't that a coincidence he has a meeting with M who tells him that's the very chappie he needs to go after.


Yes it's funny how the early films usually improved Fleming's plots quite easily: obviously they made Goldfinger's scheme much more satisfying, but in this case the slightest hand-wave of 'M wanted Bond to meet Goldfinger' is the simplest thing, changes nothing, and makes the whole thing much more believable! It's almost perverse that Fleming didn't think of it! :(

#16 Gri007

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Posted 24 August 2008 - 05:11 PM

Even though I have read DMC and now halfway throug CS. I think DMC should take place after CS. Obviously there is no recollection of DMC in CS. Although there is amention of a job that Bond had just done is Asia, and was centered around Hong Kong at the begining of CS. Would have been good if that Honk Kong mission was actually the story of DMC. Would have fitted perfectly.