36 replies to this topic

[Qwerty]

Now on the CBn main page...

A.S.P.: The Stuff Legends Are Made Of

A look at the handgun of choice from the John Gardner novels

[billy007]

A decent article, I've fired a Beretta Mod 418 in .25 calibre,I own a Walther PPK and a Walther P99 but I doubt I'll ever see a ASP 9mm.

[darkpath]

I own two ASP 9mm pistols and I adore them both. I regularly carried first one and then the other (my second was in better shape, so I switched to that one once I acquired it) until my professional and other transport requirements forced me to traverse areas where my existing authorizations did not suffice. It is still my favorite concealed carry pistol (I have also carried the SigSauer P230, SigSauer P225, Glock 17, and Glock 27). Of the others, the only one that came close to being as effective and concealable was the Glock 27, and the Glock's squared slide always dug into me when worn concealed. I was deeply saddened by the ASP's inventor's passing last November.

[FullMetalJacket]

If you're taking a handgun into combat and its caliber doesn't start with a .4, that's the wrong answer.

Ultimately, I always thought it was rather ridiculous to have a pistol downsized for the sake of "concealability," unless you're looking for something like an ankle gun. If you're wearing the right clothes and you holster the weapon in the right place, it won't bulge out; and ultimately, no matter how small your concealed handgun is, if you get frisked by a competent searcher they're probably going to find it.

That said, in emergency situations any pistol is better than none. I wouldn't trust a .25 with my life, but it would beat throwin' rocks.

[Jack Spang]

You guys are most likely American..?

[Bryce (003)]

You guys are most likely American..?

Residing in America, but not necessarily of American descent or heritage.

My own ASP, WAS a privilaged weapon of choice in my hands and posession.

Designed for CQC (close-quarters-combat) it isn't a long range pistol by any means. As mentioned, most firearm exchanges take place between 3-5 meters, but it is a fine pistol. I miss it.

Universal acceptance of all known 9mm ammo (can even fire .380's - 9mm short - rounds if need be), Teflon coating (assuring a non-snag issue on clothing - even drawn from a pair of snug jeans), the lexicon (see through) grips remind you of what's left in the heat of combat and the sights are (once learned) the most accurate of fixed sights.

Compact, powerful at close range and excellently carried in one of the Ken Nulls rigs. You can't go wrong and bet or trust your life to it.

[Al Lowe]

If you're taking a handgun into combat and its caliber doesn't start with a .4, that's the wrong answer.

Generally, I agree, to a point. If you can't hit what you're aiming at with a .45 or .4?, then you're better off with something that you can hit with, whether it's a 9mm, .38 or even a .25.

As for concealment, Yes, you can make the clothes fit the weapon. But in the Bond movies, they don't seem to really try to do that so well. Seems they're always more concerned with how well the clothes look on Mr. Bond.

[FullMetalJacket]

If you're taking a handgun into combat and its caliber doesn't start with a .4, that's the wrong answer.

Generally, I agree, to a point. If you can't hit what you're aiming at with a .45 or .4?, then you're better off with something that you can hit with, whether it's a 9mm, .38 or even a .25.

As for concealment, Yes, you can make the clothes fit the weapon. But in the Bond movies, they don't seem to really try to do that so well. Seems they're always more concerned with how well the clothes look on Mr. Bond.

True enough. But they've managed to make the clothes work for the movies, it seems. The Walther P99 is about 45% larger (give or take) than the PPK, yet the films present it as equally concealable.

[doublenoughtspy]

Great article.

I found this picture of the Guttersnipe sight, might want to place it in the article to demonstrate it's uniqueness.

[MarcAngeDraco]

If you're taking a handgun into combat and its caliber doesn't start with a .4, that's the wrong answer.

Generally, I agree, to a point. If you can't hit what you're aiming at with a .45 or .4?, then you're better off with something that you can hit with, whether it's a 9mm, .38 or even a .25.

As for concealment, Yes, you can make the clothes fit the weapon. But in the Bond movies, they don't seem to really try to do that so well. Seems they're always more concerned with how well the clothes look on Mr. Bond.

True enough. But they've managed to make the clothes work for the movies, it seems. The Walther P99 is about 45% larger (give or take) than the PPK, yet the films present it as equally concealable.

True to a point, but a lot of that is 'movie magic'. In many scenes where the viewer would assume the concealed weapon is effectively concealed, in reality it's probably not there at all.

As for making the clothes fit the weapon, that can work to a point. But such clothes can be as much of a tip off to a trained eye as a slightly visible 'print' of the weapon.

In reality, a P99 is a rather difficult weapon to effectively conceal.

[zencat]

Excellent article on a very worthy topic. The ASP is a part of the Bond legacy and deserves attention. Also nice for younger fans just reading Gardner to actually see what this gun looked like. I always liked the see-though grip. Thanks.

[Trident]

If you're taking a handgun into combat and its caliber doesn't start with a .4, that's the wrong answer.

Generally, I agree, to a point. If you can't hit what you're aiming at with a .45 or .4?, then you're better off with something that you can hit with, whether it's a 9mm, .38 or even a .25.

As for concealment, Yes, you can make the clothes fit the weapon. But in the Bond movies, they don't seem to really try to do that so well. Seems they're always more concerned with how well the clothes look on Mr. Bond.

True enough. But they've managed to make the clothes work for the movies, it seems. The Walther P99 is about 45% larger (give or take) than the PPK, yet the films present it as equally concealable.

True to a point, but a lot of that is 'movie magic'. In many scenes where the viewer would assume the concealed weapon is effectively concealed, in reality it's probably not there at all.

Or the actors took training courses with a stage magician. Otherwise, I can't think of a way to conceal a weapon like the P99 under such excellently tailored clothes as the Brioni suits of the last several Bonds. Frankly, it's just ridiculous IMHO. Bond could draw a Katana as well, it wouldn't seem more unlikely.

To carry guns in the class of SIG 225, Beretta 92`s, S&W 639 and the likes concealed, Bond would have to dress more like Jack Bauer. And even then, it would probably be futile. Kiefer Sutherland is roughly my size and built and every time I see him drawing a Beretta 92 from under his jacket, I ask myself why the butt hasn't already poked a hole through his coat? Because I surely know it would have done so, if I had worn it the whole day long.


Apart from that, fantastic article. I thoroughly enjoyed it!

[darkpath]

Or the actors took training courses with a stage magician. Otherwise, I can't think of a way to conceal a weapon like the P99 under such excellently tailored clothes as the Brioni suits of the last several Bonds. Frankly, it's just ridiculous IMHO. Bond could draw a Katana as well, it wouldn't seem more unlikely.

Hmmm.... so the reason that Bond is roughly the same age after 40 years of films is because he's immortal? *queue "Princes of the Universe" by Queen*

Seriously, I would like the producers to not cheat it by pretending that Bond is carrying under his Brioni suit or dinnerjacket, when he isn't. At least with the PPK, my suspension of disbelief wasn't stressed as fiercely.

[ComplimentsOfSharky]

Fantastic article for a fantastic gun. I've loved it since I first heard of it despite never actually having handled one.


I own a Smith and Wesson 439. It might be nice to get it modified but I wouldn't really know where to start with that...

It serves me well enough I suppose.


With regard to caliber, I always think of shot placement as more important than flat out stopping power. The only .45s I've shot are full size so I don't know how the recoil would be on a compact/subcompact...but if you can't control your weapon, having a bigger bullet come out of it won't help you.

[Qwerty]

Definitely a very knowledgeable and enthusiastic article. Nice to see one featured on an aspect of the sometimes overlooked Gardner era.

[FullMetalJacket]

With regard to caliber, I always think of shot placement as more important than flat out stopping power. The only .45s I've shot are full size so I don't know how the recoil would be on a compact/subcompact...but if you can't control your weapon, having a bigger bullet come out of it won't help you.

You'd be surprised--unless you're talking about headshots, which are often the result of luck rather than skill. (I've never seen marksmanship training in any medium that actually encourages firers to go for headshots--it's ALWAYS "center of mass.")

I don't care how manageable and controllable a .25 or a .32 are, I wouldn't use it as my main weapon if I have to plug six rounds into a target just to knock him down and still worry about whether he'll be waiting for me in the woods later that night. You're right that having a bigger bullet won't help you if you can't control it, but for the love of God, the answer is NOT downgrading to some pissant caliber, the answer is MORE TRAINING. And if anyone is well-trained, it's James Bond.

[ComplimentsOfSharky]

With regard to caliber, I always think of shot placement as more important than flat out stopping power. The only .45s I've shot are full size so I don't know how the recoil would be on a compact/subcompact...but if you can't control your weapon, having a bigger bullet come out of it won't help you.

You'd be surprised--unless you're talking about headshots, which are often the result of luck rather than skill. (I've never seen marksmanship training in any medium that actually encourages firers to go for headshots--it's ALWAYS "center of mass.")

I don't care how manageable and controllable a .25 or a .32 are, I wouldn't use it as my main weapon if I have to plug six rounds into a target just to knock him down and still worry about whether he'll be waiting for me in the woods later that night. You're right that having a bigger bullet won't help you if you can't control it, but for the love of God, the answer is NOT downgrading to some pissant caliber, the answer is MORE TRAINING. And if anyone is well-trained, it's James Bond.

Well, I was referring to 9mm (9x19) particularly...I agree that .25 or .38 are a bit too small unless you just have very tiny hands.

[darkpath]

With regard to caliber, I always think of shot placement as more important than flat out stopping power. The only .45s I've shot are full size so I don't know how the recoil would be on a compact/subcompact...but if you can't control your weapon, having a bigger bullet come out of it won't help you.

You'd be surprised--unless you're talking about headshots, which are often the result of luck rather than skill. (I've never seen marksmanship training in any medium that actually encourages firers to go for headshots--it's ALWAYS "center of mass.")

I don't care how manageable and controllable a .25 or a .32 are, I wouldn't use it as my main weapon if I have to plug six rounds into a target just to knock him down and still worry about whether he'll be waiting for me in the woods later that night. You're right that having a bigger bullet won't help you if you can't control it, but for the love of God, the answer is NOT downgrading to some pissant caliber, the answer is MORE TRAINING. And if anyone is well-trained, it's James Bond.

I believe the expression, "the .25 you have with you is better than the .44magnum with scope you have at home," has some relevance here. I've seen some perfectly concealable .45 pistols; however, at the time that the ASP was invented, such models were still well into the future. Additionally, the availability of 9X19mm ammunition worldwide was a factor. Finally, I would and have bet my life on appropriate defensive ammunition in 9X19mm over .45 in FMJ. Being frank, I wouldn't even rely upon a .75 caliber (or even larger) firearm with FMJ ammunition.

My standard load in the ASP was Federal Nyclad 124gr. I don't believe in "magic bullets" that overcome all limitations; however, I do believe that some people mistakenly think that a .45 will work, even with FMJ ammunition. That's not a bet I'll take, ever.

[FullMetalJacket]

Excellent points, darkpath. So you're saying you're a JHP advocate, then? And what are your thoughts on the Geneva Conventions specifying that only fully metal jacketed ammunition is authorized for military forces?

[Double-0-7]

You guys are most likely American..?

Residing in America, but not necessarily of American descent or heritage.

My own ASP, WAS a privilaged weapon of choice in my hands and posession.

Bryce,
I think I recall reading that you acquired your ASP through an associate in FL and were excited to get it - and break it in. How and why did you end up having to part with this exceptional weapon?

[darkpath]

Excellent points, darkpath. So you're saying you're a JHP advocate, then? And what are your thoughts on the Geneva Conventions specifying that only fully metal jacketed ammunition is authorized for military forces?

Actually, I'm partial to frangible ammunition and polymer-clad hollow points, as opposed to metallic-clad hollow points.

Truthfully, I recognize it's the law, so to speak. Consequently, I think pistols are a dreadful tool for military purposes.

Ironically, I do think that the consequences of that part of the Geneva Conventions is the opposite of the stated intention.

If a soldier is using a FMJ ammunition in a pistol, I am fairly certain he or she is either making a shot into the triangular area from the armpits to the crown of the forehead, as opposed to mere center of mass, or he or she is going to be pumping so many rounds into his or her unfortunate target that there isn't going to be much for the surgeon to stitch back together.

In short, to my mind, the end result of the Geneva Conventions regarding the use of FMJ ammunition is to reduce survivability. I freely admit this is based upon my understanding of survivability per individual bullet wound versus probability of each single shot producing a successful stop. I also freely admit that my primary source for this information is the research of Evan Marshall, whom you may disagree with.

[Bryce (003)]

Bryce,
I think I recall reading that you acquired your ASP through an associate in FL and were excited to get it - and break it in. How and why did you end up having to part with this exceptional weapon?

Simple.

I trusted someone.

PM me for details.

[FullMetalJacket]

Actually, I'm partial to frangible ammunition and polymer-clad hollow points, as opposed to metallic-clad hollow points.

What about the loss in penetrative capability inherent to JHP rounds in comparison to FMJ? (I'm really just playing devil's advocate here...truthfully, the difference in penetrative power is decidedly small. A .45 is such a slow, heavy round that something as minimal as a car door with the window rolled down will rather reliably stop one, regardless of the constitution of the bullet. Of course, it's nothing I would bet my life on, but it's something to consider.)

Edited by FullMetalJacket, 25 January 2007 - 02:42 AM.

[darkpath]

Actually, I'm partial to frangible ammunition and polymer-clad hollow points, as opposed to metallic-clad hollow points.

What about the loss in penetrative capability inherent to JHP rounds in comparison to FMJ? (I'm really just playing devil's advocate here...truthfully, the difference in penetrative power is decidedly small. A .45 is such a slow, heavy round that something as minimal as a car door with the window rolled down will rather reliably stop one, regardless of the constitution of the bullet. Of course, it's nothing I would bet my life on, but it's something to consider.)

I consider the tradeoff to be quite acceptable, and even an advantage. I ideally want my ammunition to do its job and not overpenetrate.

Truthfully, if I had to use a pistol with FMJ ammunition, I would want a new round with much longer projectile than is typical for pistols (that is, more along the lines of a rifle round), and per the designs of the late Eugene Stoner, I'd want the the rifling slow enough to allow the round to destabilize in soft tissue and tumble. No standard pistol round that I know comes close to the kind of terminal performance I want in a pistol when using FMJ ammunition.

As far as .45 rounds being stopped by car doors with the window rolled down, I know that in the city I live in, there was an incident a few years back where the .45 rounds fired at a fleeing felon bounced off the windshield (apparently, said felon was backing away from the police officers in a motor vehicle and therefore had the laminated windshield between himself and the officers).

If I am expecting to shoot through a car, I want a rifle, shotgun loaded with slugs, SMG, or carbine, not a pistol.

Getting back to the topic, I particularly value the ASP's capacity to readily digest any 9mm ammunition I have thrown at it. When I carried either of my two ASPs, I actually did keep a single magazine loaded with tracer/FMJ ammunition. I never treated it as my standard load; but you never know...

[ComplimentsOfSharky]

Truthfully, if I had to use a pistol with FMJ ammunition, I would want a new round with much longer projectile than is typical for pistols (that is, more along the lines of a rifle round),

Like the FN 5-7?

[darkpath]

Truthfully, if I had to use a pistol with FMJ ammunition, I would want a new round with much longer projectile than is typical for pistols (that is, more along the lines of a rifle round),

Like the FN 5-7?

That might do; but, I don't have enough information to know how well it transfers energy, length of projectile, etc. From what little I have read, it does seem impressive. Certainly the, the P90 is an interesting weapon, and I do like the clear magazine, which is very reminiscent of the clear grips of the ASP.

[SecretAgent007]

This article doesn't really cover any new ground.
As for stopping power (as has been discussed in this thread) I submit there is no accurate scientific way to measure it. Also, rounds such as that for the FN over penetrate the body cavity to effectively stop a target from retaliating in most cases. More damage can be done with a JHP (Corbon, Federal HS to name a few) or fragmented round (such as MagSafe and Glaser to name a few). I'm not saying to carry a .25 or .32, but a 9/40/.38SPL/.357/.357Sig/38Super/45ACP with the right ammo and shot placement work fine. Every class I have attended teaches shot placement in the trunk/midsection because of the target size and ability to hit one of many vital organs. Head shots, while seemingly easy when at the range, prove very hard when confronted with a threat, under pressure, when your adrenaline is pumping.

The idea of NATO using FMJ is that they are more humane than hollow point ammo. The idea is that a wounded solder requires more attention, and subsequently more personnel to attend to the wound (than a dead soldier), keeping the attending personnel and their resources from engaging the enemy. Think of it this way, one bullet can tie up 3-5 troops immediately.

Edited by SecretAgent007, 07 February 2007 - 04:54 AM.

[Qwerty]

Note: This article has been updated.

[Kilroy6644]

The idea of NATO using FMJ is that they are more humane than hollow point ammo. The idea is that a wounded solder requires more attention, and subsequently more personnel to attend to the wound (than a dead soldier), keeping the attending personnel and their resources from engaging the enemy. Think of it this way, one bullet can tie up 3-5 troops immediately.

I know that's the idea, but it never really made any sense to me. The only troops getting tied up are the ones with medical training: the medics and later the doctors at the hospitals. You'll tie up an infantryman or two for the time it takes to get the wounded soldier out of the line of fire, but once he's (relatively) safe, they go back to shooting. Under the Genevea Convention, medical personnel are forbidden from carrying weapons (not that it matters; SEAL corpsmen are always armed), so from the point of view of the opposing forces, it's a non-issue. The ones that are tied up weren't the ones shooting at you in the first place.

Edited by Kilroy6644, 13 February 2007 - 02:29 AM.

[SecretAgent007]

Bryce, I didn't know that you no longer has an ASP, wish I would have known. I just sold 3 of mine. I'd have given you a good deal.