113 replies to this topic

[spynovelfan]

Thanks for pointing me to this thread you started, Spynovelfan!

Anyway, after glancing at the initial posts and various responses, I'm concerned (1) if the criteria accurately captures Fleming's Bond, (2) If some of these traits should be better qualified (3) If there should perhaps be a weighting.

Well, I think I have already answered this. Yes, they're not precise. Yes, we can debate them and we'd all have different ideas. Yes to the weighting: if we got into it to that degree it would take nine hours to do the thing! I still think these attributes give a much better picture than the basic one that most people usually apply, which is that he's ruthless, which is why I think Dalton usually wins this game. It's an experiment. Just give it a go and see what you think. Still, I don't think it's quite so off as you do:

For example, was lit Bond really debonaire? I don't think he was, but for the sake of argument that he was indeed debonaire, to what degree? Theoretically, Cary Grant was more debonair than lit Bond, thus being more "Bond" in that category than Bond himself. The same thing with being cold blooded; sure, Bond did not flinch in hurting/killing people, but he struggled with it internally as we saw in the begining of GF.

I think it's fairly indisputable that Fleming's Bond was debonair, and am surprised you query it. Yes to the weighting, but 50 attributes all weighted is too complicated: this is just to give a rough idea, but hopefully much less rough than usual. Bond can recognise Count Lippe's tailor from several paces, Boothroyd replaces his gun using the 'sort of voice Bond's first expensive tailor had used', he wears Sea Island cotton shirts, narrow knitted black silk ties and a pyjama coat of a type he discovered at the end of the war in Hong Kong (not all at the same time, though!). I think the impression we are meant to have is very much of someone who is debonair. His cold-bloodedness I think I've already discussed.

A Handsome (in a somewhat cruel way) - I suggested the importance of weighing these "Quantums of Fleming." Doesn't everyone think that Bond's most basic physical traits as described by Fleming, excluding the details of scars, bone structures resembling specific celebrities, etc., weigh very heavily? I think this factor is up there. Because film is obviously a visual medium, whether or not a Bond actor is handsome (and plain and simple, handsome, without having to squint or rationalize in order to conclude that he's handsome), is a significant qualification to consider.

The idea of this is to see who most closely matches Ian Fleming's *character*. Beyond his being cruelly handsome, which I think does affect that, how does which celebrity his bone structure resembles most affect his character? None of the actors have had a scar anyway, as far as I know, but again, a list of hundreds of attributes would take a long time to complete and I fail to see how the actor having a comma of hair means he is closer to the *character* of Ian Fleming's James Bond. I wanted something better than what we already had, but not so exhaustive that nobody would do the thing.

D Bon-viveur - Though Bond was hedonistic, I think that this aspect needs to be better qualified in the light of Fleming's portrayal of Bond, who was purposefully non-descript in that he wanted utter privacy in enjoying his goods; take the Bentleys for example and how he dressed them down.

How does privacy affect his bon-viveur status? Okay, he stays in station hotels. But there are moments of great luxury in the life of a secret agent, and Bond grabs them. He has a 28-course meal with M in the middle of his mission in Blades in MOONRAKER (or so it seems).

E Cocky - Was lit Bond really cocky? Perhaps in the face of villainy, but generally, no.

I've already dealt with this, but yes, he's often very cocky. That mere woman London send him - what are they thinking, women are useless on jobs like this! The one he falls in love with, nearly proposes to and then discovers was the traitor. Those silly American gangsters - easy to round them up. Blofeld and Bunt - well, they're sorted now, aren't they? Time to drive off into the suns... Oh.

F Laconic - Per Merriam Webster, this is defined as "using or involving the use of a minimum of words : concise to the point of seeming rude or mysterious". How could this be fairly evaluated in the interest of the Bond actors? By the fact that these are EON films, I think laconic is off the table.

I think laconic is a mixture of sardonic, ironic and saturnine - please take it to mean that.

K Womanising - Again, it's difficult to find parity between the individual movies and books, because in some of the books, Bond feasted on women, sometimes it was implied (MR) while not being actualized (again, MR). Dalying with married women, for example, was intentionally given treatment in CR (and TND) to make Bond bolder and "closer to the books" though the decision to extensively not do that earlier lies in the realm of production politics and should offer very little merit for the actors' influence.

How do they come across generally, though? Can you buy Timothy Dalton as someone who would relish stealing another man's girl, as Bond does in Fleming's GOLDFINGER? Just the general sense of the character: no need to go into precisely what the plot was. I can't really see Pierce Brosnan as a convincing womaniser myself, despite the whole thing with Paris and the Danish woman in Oxford. It's not about the plots or lines they had - how did *they* come across? Connery has a streak of lecherous wolfery in his Bond that comes across whatever he's doing (in my view).

M Anti-authoritarian. I think that Bond has wrongly been branded as a rebel, and worse, display of this in recent films have been attributed to Fleming's writings; I thought it nice to see Dalton actually acting out Bond's occasional, internalized disagreements with M, but it got old when Brosnan (repeatedly) and Craig revisited it. How Bond internalized his feelings for authority was vastly different from how he actually behaved in front of them...which I would say is pretty much like how the rest of us carry on!

I've covered this query, too. Miss it out if it really bothers you, but in my book countermanding orders to assassinate an important sniper, and seriously endangering the life of a colleague as a result, because you liked the look of said sniper, is anti-authoritarian in the extreme. Bond doesn't care too much, either, and in fact ends that story hoping that he's sacked from the Section. That's one example: I've given others earlier in the thread, I think. He has a rebellious streak - he was expelled from school, remember.

But let's not endlessly debate the terms of reference - give the thing a go and see what you think!

[superado]

I hope to soon give a thoughtful try at assigning rankings for the 5 Bonds, Spynovelfan. But some quick responses to your post: On being debonair, having a relatively expensive wardrobe does not automatically make that so; like the rest of Bond's luxuries, the quality of his wardrobe and accessories were not immediately apparent and were occasionally practical if we are to consider his choice in footwear and his repeating the same color rendition of suits. Fleming downplayed Bond's appearance to others in contrast to his more richly descriptions of villains, which to me served to correlate vanity with their villainous traits.

On being a bon vivant, his normal fare in breakfast of eggs, toast and coffee, and dinner of sole don't strike me as high living. In your Blades example, it was rather a rare experience for Bond to partake in a multi-course dinner as the privileged guest of M; a similar event is his meal of rock lobster in GF at Mr. Dupont's expense.

On being cocky, again most of this attitude is internalized and admittedly it's quite a trick to convey this on film, approximating cockiness at that "quantum of Fleming." I don't think lit Bond is too cocky to swagger for example, or display an ammused arrogance at the card table as we've seen all the movie Bonds do, except for Dalton. I will lump in the rebellious streak here. Who doesn't occasionally experience this? Again, I think this is more of an attitude than it is a consistently and obviously displayed behavior of lit Bond's character, who I don't see going head to head with M all too frequently (you burned me!), defying orders or violating the privacy of his/her flat, computer access, etc.

[RazorBlade]

As far as Bond being anti-authoritarian, I think so. I think the other 00's were too. One doesn't do well in that sort of job playing by the rules. I've known a few special ops types in my day. None of them played by the rules and all were in heaven while serving in the Teams.

[spynovelfan]

I hope to soon give a thoughtful try at assigning rankings for the 5 Bonds, Spynovelfan. But some quick responses to your post: On being debonair, having a relatively expensive wardrobe does not automatically make that so; like the rest of Bond's luxuries, the quality of his wardrobe and accessories were not immediately apparent and were occasionally practical if we are to consider his choice in footwear and his repeating the same color rendition of suits. Fleming downplayed Bond's appearance to others in contrast to his more richly descriptions of villains, which to me served to correlate vanity with their villainous traits.

I didn't say vain, though: just debonair. I would take that to mean well-dressed. The man obviously cares about clothes and accoutrements: a black oxidised lighter, the aforementioned pyjama suit... It's not that they're expensive: the lighter is battered. It's that he takes care. Do you really think Fleming didn't weant us to feel his character was debonair?

On being a bon vivant, his normal fare in breakfast of eggs, toast and coffee, and dinner of sole don't strike me as high living.

I think we're quibbling over tiny details here. Perhaps not high living, but where are the eggs from, where's the jam from? He doesn't just have eggs and coffee, does he?

On being cocky, again most of this attitude is internalized and admittedly it's quite a trick to convey this on film, approximating cockiness at that "quantum of Fleming." I don't think lit Bond is too cocky to swagger for example, or display an ammused arrogance at the card table as we've seen all the movie Bonds do, except for Dalton. I will lump in the rebellious streak here. Who doesn't occasionally experience this? Again, I think this is more of an attitude than it is a consistently and obviously displayed behavior of lit Bond's character, who I don't see going head to head with M all too frequently (you burned me!), defying orders or violating the privacy of his/her flat, computer access, etc.

Well, he's certainly not as cocky as Craig. But look at what M says in his obituary:

'The nature of Commander Bond's duties with the Ministry, which were, incidentally, recognized by the appointment of C.M.G. in 1954, must remain confidential, nay secret, but his colleagues at the Ministry will allow that he performed them with outstanding bravery and distinction, although occasionally, through an impetuous strain in his nature, with a streak of the foolhardy that brought him in conflict with higher authority.'

That's all I meant: admittedly M says it's occasional, but I think it's important nevertheless. And I wouldn't quibble with M's asssessment that Bond came into conflict with higher authority!

[Dell Deaton]

For a few years now, it has been established fan orthodoxy that Timothy Dalton came the closest to Ian Fleming's James Bond (with Connery the best Bond and Lazenby in the closest Fleming adaptation). Is it true, though - or is it something we want to be true? I don't think being close to Fleming is about smoking - that's an attribute of his individualistic bon-viveur lifestyle. So let's try to break it down to see what we *really* feel. Here are some elements of Fleming's Bond I have identified from the novels. If you agree that they would - roughly - make up someone closely resembling Fleming's character, try to honestly rate each actor out of 5 for each attribute. Add up the total and see who has the largest Quantum of Fleming. Enjoy. And no cheating!

A Handsome (in a somewhat cruel way)
B Debonair
C Cold-blooded
D Bon-viveur
E Cocky
F Laconic
G Driven
H Menacing
I Individualistic
J Romantic
K Womanising
L Haunted
M Anti-authoritarian

Okay, so I'm clearly way-late for this party, having been bounced over her by reference from a Timothy Dalton sub-Forum Thread titled, "Timothy Dalton wanted to be Fleming's Bond, Let's test that claim!"

That said (and admittedly not having yet read through the other undoubtedly valuable responses here), I ended up disagreeing with - and thus dismissing - most of the voting criteria. Working then from those that I thought relevant, ie, A, G, J, K, and L, and not yet adding ones that I'd have drawn from my own reading of Ian Fleming, eg, dogged loyalty to M and/or England, here's what I came up with.

• Timothy Dalton by a fair margin
• Sean Connery, not far behind
• Daniel Craig next
• George Lazenby, by a bit of a spread from the top three
• Pierce Brosnan, just behind Lazenby
• Roger Moore, by another spread from the two just above him

Didn't cheat. But it does confirm what I'd already thought.

[The Shark]

Since when is Anti-authoritarianism a characteristic of Fleming's Bond?

I would say it were the opposite, in many respects.

[Dell Deaton]

Since when is Anti-authoritarianism a characteristic of Fleming's Bond?

I would say it were the opposite, in many respects.

And now having read through this Thread and caught up, let me say again that I generally like the idea of having a criteria and tackling it in an effort toward at least a pseudo-objective outcome.

But "The Shark" is right: Maybe it starts with agreeing on the criteria (and maybe even weighting them, as well as defining them), then going forward.

[BoogieBond]

As instructed. I rated each of the categories as a "Gut feel" and I would have added a Toughness/durability category for Flemings Bond, as he was consistently put through the mill tortured or put through an assault course and came up trumps/recouperated for the next adventure(but I added points in the Driven/Cold-Blooded areas for extra toughness points).

1. Craig 57
2. Connery 54
3. Dalton 51
4. Moore 48
5. Laz 47
6. Brosnan 46

I am not sure about the order, but I would have Connery, Dalton and Craig as my most Fleming Bonds.

Edited by BoogieBond, 16 February 2010 - 08:49 AM.

[spynovelfan]

For a few years now, it has been established fan orthodoxy that Timothy Dalton came the closest to Ian Fleming's James Bond (with Connery the best Bond and Lazenby in the closest Fleming adaptation). Is it true, though - or is it something we want to be true? I don't think being close to Fleming is about smoking - that's an attribute of his individualistic bon-viveur lifestyle. So let's try to break it down to see what we *really* feel. Here are some elements of Fleming's Bond I have identified from the novels. If you agree that they would - roughly - make up someone closely resembling Fleming's character, try to honestly rate each actor out of 5 for each attribute. Add up the total and see who has the largest Quantum of Fleming. Enjoy. And no cheating!

A Handsome (in a somewhat cruel way)
B Debonair
C Cold-blooded
D Bon-viveur
E Cocky
F Laconic
G Driven
H Menacing
I Individualistic
J Romantic
K Womanising
L Haunted
M Anti-authoritarian

Okay, so I'm clearly way-late for this party, having been bounced over her by reference from a Timothy Dalton sub-Forum Thread titled, "Timothy Dalton wanted to be Fleming's Bond, Let's test that claim!"

That said (and admittedly not having yet read through the other undoubtedly valuable responses here), I ended up disagreeing with - and thus dismissing - most of the voting criteria. Working then from those that I thought relevant, ie, A, G, J, K, and L, and not yet adding ones that I'd have drawn from my own reading of Ian Fleming, eg, dogged loyalty to M and/or England, here's what I came up with.

• Timothy Dalton by a fair margin
• Sean Connery, not far behind
• Daniel Craig next
• George Lazenby, by a bit of a spread from the top three
• Pierce Brosnan, just behind Lazenby
• Roger Moore, by another spread from the two just above him

Didn't cheat. But it does confirm what I'd already thought.

It's hardly surprising it confirmed what you thought, though, is it? You essentially cut all the elements you didn't think fitted Timothy Dalton's interpretation and, lo and behold, the result was that Dalton was the most like Fleming! Although... how did you get him to win with womaniser in there? Dalton's Bond is a far cry from that, surely, especially compared to Connery and Moore. Can you show us your figures? You can add 'dogged loyalty to M' if you insist, but it might skew against the character who quit MI6.

As I've indicated here and in the other thread, there is no way that we would all be able to agree on a simple set of indicators for Ian Fleming's character. The conversation would go on for years. Even in this thread there was an apparently serious contention that Ian Fleming's James Bond was not debonair! (You also left it out. Sorry, but if you don't believe that Ian Fleming's James Bond is debonair, cold-blooded, a bon-viveur or individualistic, we must part ways.) Someone else argued against laconic for sardonic. Others have argued that blue eyes should be featured as a character trait.

Even if all the rules of the internet were to implode and we were all to agree on a single set of criteria, without every new person in the thread not reading the thread and disputing them... there would be dozens of criteria, and the survey would take hours to do.

And it still wouldn't be scientific - this isn't a scientific question. The point is that the debate about Dalton and Fleming generally comes down to just two criteria: he highlighted elements that had been missing from the previous incarnations, especially Roger Moore's, mainly the ruthlessness of the character and his romantic streak. He also notably looked a lot more like the character as described by Fleming, was a well-respected theatre actor, spoke extensively about Fleming in interviews, and generally presented a stark contrast. But the criteria, essentially, of the test to date has been:

Ruthless
Romantic streak

In which case, Dalton usually wins. Nobody objects to those criteria! Well, I do, on the grounds that there's much much more to the character than these two elements. I have tried to add several other aspects of Fleming's character to give a more accurate picture. It is of course still rough, and could be improved on in an ideal world, but frankly I haven't seen any especially convincing arguments to the contrary and I think it's still a lot more accurate than just seeing how ruthless and romantic he is, which is what is almost always done.

If you set aside the inclination to question to the nth degree, and take it that someone who has read Fleming and has a reasonable clue about him has put together a rough list of character traits, and take the test with an open mind, you might be surprised.

Or... we could have an endless debate about why all the characteristics should be ruthless, tough, professional, determined, etc, so that Dalton will be the closest to Fleming's character.

Since when is Anti-authoritarianism a characteristic of Fleming's Bond?

I would say it were the opposite, in many respects.

Oh, well, Timothy Dalton's in trouble, then. He quits MI6, remember?

Please see the rest of the thread for my response to this. Or read the short story The Living Daylights, the Shrublands scenes in Thunderball, or any of the occasions on which he considers resigning from MI6 in the novels.

[Trident]

Great idea for analysing the Bond factor!

Connery

A Handsome (in a somewhat cruel way) 4 of 5
B Debonair 3 of 5
C Cold-blooded 5 of 5
D Bon-viveur 4 of 5
E Cocky 4 of 5
F Laconic 4 of 5
G Driven 3 of 5
H Menacing 3 of 5
I Individualistic 3 of 5
J Romantic 2 of 5
K Womanising 10 of 5 (ok, make that 5 of 5)
L Haunted 1 of 5
M Anti-authoritarian 2 of 5

rates Bond factor 43 of a possible 65



Lazenby

A Handsome (in a somewhat cruel way) 5 of 5
B Debonair 5 of 5
C Cold-blooded 4 of 5
D Bon-viveur 4 of 5
E Cocky 3 of 5
F Laconic 3 of 5
G Driven 3 of 5 (although one might argue 5 of 5)
H Menacing 3 of 5
I Individualistic 2 of 5 (not much chance for him to be)
J Romantic 5 of 5 (could esily be 10 of 5)
K Womanising 3 of 5
L Haunted 2 of 5
M Anti-authoritarian 4 of 5

rates Bond factor 46 of a possible 65




Moore

A Handsome (in a somewhat cruel way) 3 of 5 (one point less for lack of cruelty)
B Debonair 5 of 5
C Cold-blooded 4 of 5
D Bon-viveur 5 of 5
E Cocky 3 of 5 (his charm always softened that)
F Laconic 1 of 5 (far too seldom he is)
G Driven 2 of 5 (never really got that vibe from him)
H Menacing 4 of 5 (at times he could be)
I Individualistic 1 of 5 (too fashionable overall)
J Romantic 1 of 5 (romance wasn't an item here)
K Womanising 5 of 5
L Haunted 2 of 5 (the odd reference to Tracy)
M Anti-authoritarian 1 of 5

rates Bond factor 37 of a possible 65 (am surprised myself)




Dalton

A Handsome (in a somewhat cruel way) 5 of 5
B Debonair 3 of 5
C Cold-blooded 4 of 5
D Bon-viveur 3 of 5
E Cocky 2 of 5
F Laconic 4 of 5
G Driven 5 of 5 (LTK upped this rating considerably)
H Menacing 4 of 5 (see above)
I Individualistic 4 of 5 (leather jackets and jazz in the AM)
J Romantic 3 of 5 (5 of 5 for TLD, 0 for LTK)
K Womanising 1 of 5 (likes looking, eats at home)
L Haunted 2 of 5 (0 for TLD, 2 for LTK)
M Anti-authoritarian 5 of 5 (in both films ignores orders)

rates Bond factor 45 of a possible 65



Brosnan

A Handsome (in a somewhat cruel way) 3 of 5 (very handsome, but not in a cruel way)
B Debonair 4 of 5 (almost too deb. in GE)
C Cold-blooded 1 of 5 (never got that feeling from him)
D Bon-viveur 4 of 5 (in a churning way)
E Cocky 4 of 5 (hard to decide how earnest this was)
F Laconic 1 of 5 (less dialogue would have helped)
G Driven 2 of 5 (not really a driven character)
H Menacing 2 of 5 (he could when the script allowed)
I Individualistic 0 of 5 (can a walking ad be individualistic?)
J Romantic 2 of 5 (1 for one moment with Marceau, 1 out of pity)
K Womanising 4 of 5 (would have got full 5, but all his girls were as important and significant as 15 minutes with youpørn)
L Haunted 1 of 5 (Scooby-Doo is more haunted)
M Anti-authoritarian 1 of 5 (not really, returns immediately even after being sacked; bet he also brteaks the speed limit; by 1 mile or so)

rates Bond factor 29 of a possible 65 (many of the missing points not his fault)




Craig

A Handsome (in a somewhat cruel way) 4 of 5
B Debonair 3 of 5 (mainly first half of CR)
C Cold-blooded 4 of 5
D Bon-viveur 4 of 5
E Cocky 5 of 5 (could easily be 10 of 5)
F Laconic 5 of 5
G Driven 5 of 5
H Menacing 5 of 5 (can make a face like an open razor)
I Individualistic 4 of 5 (still ad stuff, but in an individual way; wouldn't have thought that possible)
J Romantic 5 of 5 (has to get full rating here, hasn't he?)
K Womanising 2 of 5 (exactly how many lays he shows up to now)
L Haunted 5 of 5
M Anti-authoritarian 5 of 5

rates Bond factor 56 of a possible 65



Must say I'm a little surprised myself, although of course I knew roughly my own ranking of the actors. Am still astonished how bad Brosnan, whom I certainly didn't hate or detest in the role, cut here.

[Dell Deaton]

For a few years now, it has been established fan orthodoxy that Timothy Dalton came the closest to Ian Fleming's James Bond....

Okay, so I'm clearly way-late for this party, having been bounced over her by reference from a Timothy Dalton sub-Forum Thread....
That said (and admittedly not having yet read through the other undoubtedly valuable responses here), I ended up disagreeing with - and thus dismissing - most of the voting criteria. Working then from those that I thought relevant, ie, A, G, J, K, and L, and not yet adding ones that I'd have drawn from my own reading of Ian Fleming, eg, dogged loyalty to M and/or England, here's what I came up with.

• Timothy Dalton by a fair margin
• Sean Connery, not far behind
• Daniel Craig next
• George Lazenby, by a bit of a spread from the top three
• Pierce Brosnan, just behind Lazenby
• Roger Moore, by another spread from the two just above him

Didn't cheat. But it does confirm what I'd already thought.

It's hardly surprising it confirmed what you thought, though, is it? You essentially cut all the elements you didn't think fitted Timothy Dalton's interpretation and, lo and behold, the result was that Dalton was the most like Fleming! Although... how did you get him to win with womaniser in there? Dalton's Bond is a far cry from that, surely, especially compared to Connery and Moore. Can you show us your figures? You can add 'dogged loyalty to M' if you insist, but it might skew against the character who quit MI6....

Let me start by saying (again) that I have a lot of respect for your effort. My intent was not to offend anyone, and I'm deeply sorry if I did that.

Moving on, then, I neither cut out the things that seemingly painted Dalton poorly, nor did I game the test that I actually took. It was very much with an open mind that I answered what I felt were true Fleming elements, and, putting Dalton aside, I'll confess to being surprised that Craig did as well as he did. (I think both he and Brosnan are very good cinematic 007s, just not "Fleming" Bonds - which is what we're discussing here.)

In terms of raw data, I found the listings a bit hard to follow in this Thread (which, as I said, I have now read in full: Changes nothing I wrote above, but was enjoyable from a "get to know others" standpoint). Notwithstanding, here are my numbers. The approach I used was "lower number is more favorable," and I allowed for ties.

• A Handsome (in a somewhat cruel way) SC=1 GL=2 RM=4 TD=1 PB=4 DC=3
• G Driven SC=2 GL=4 RM=4 TD=1 PB=3 DC=1
• J Romantic SC=2 GL=2 RM=4 TD=1 PB=3 DC=3
• K Womanizing SC=1 GL=1 RM=1 TD=3 PB=2 DC=3
• L Haunted SC=3 GL=4 RM=4 TD=1 PB=2 DC=1

Totals

• Sean Connery @ 9
• George Lazenby @ 13
• Roger Moore @ 17
• Timothy Dalton @ 7
• Pierce Brosnan @ 14
• Daniel Craig @ 10

Does this help? Are we good?

[marktmurphy]

Ah Jeremy; I didn't notice you were back! How pleasant it is to have you around again.

[spynovelfan]

Does this help? Are we good?

We're good, and I'm not offended in the slightest. But how can you seriously argue that being debonair or a bon-viveur are not significant elements of Ian Fleming's character? He's famous for both these elements in the film series, of course, but they're all over the novels, from his Jamaican Blue Mountain coffee, vodka martinis, knitted silk ties, specially made cigarettes and... um... Rolex watch. You also left out individualistic - but why? Again, look at his attitudes and tastes in the book, which are fiercely so. Even his watches (which are also sometimes cheap, have battered leather straps, etc).

On the elements you've picked, I would probably also choose Dalton as the winner (although I wouldn't give him a 3 for womanizing. Dalton's Bond isn't a womanizer at all, or at least not a convincing one. You also give him top marks for 'haunted', while nobbling Lazenby with a 4, even though Lazenby had the most haunted scene in the series by a long way, ie the last one where he loses his wife - I'd give him top marks for that scene alone). But I still think you have essentially taken the elements of Fleming's character that most resemble Dalton, excised the rest, and then concluded that Dalton is the most like Fleming.

Ian Fleming's character could recognize a villain's tailor from a distance; had his own recipes for scrambled eggs and vodka martinis; wanted to live his days as fully as he could instead of prolonging them; used Pinaud Elixir shampoo; savoured good meals; wore Sea Island cotton shirts, narrow knitted black silk ties and a pyjama coat of a type he discovered at the end of the war in Hong Kong... There is very little of the debonair, bon-viveur, and individualistic aspects of Fleming's character in Timothy Dalton's portrayal. Dalton's Bond would, I think, despise another agent who cared so much about his appearance and the high life. So you can miss out all these elements and claim Dalton's Bond was the most like Fleming's, but I'd love to hear a justification for how they're not 'true Fleming elements' first.

[Dell Deaton]

Does this help? Are we good?

We're good, and I'm not offended in the slightest... But I still think you have essentially taken the elements of Fleming's character that most resemble Dalton, excised the rest, and then concluded that Dalton is the most like Fleming....

Okay, my friend: I'll walk with you a bit further on this. But only if you quit accusing me of "Daltonizing" the starting point.



Maybe we're not defining terminology the same way. When you focus on "debonair," my quick Encarta Dictionary: English (North America) says, "looking well-dressed, sophisticated, and at ease," et cetera. That's not a character trait I came away with in reading the books. In From Russia with Love, Bond pegs Grant as untrustworthy by the knot of his tie, which suggests an awareness, to be sure, but not a trend he, 007, would follow. In On Her Majesty's Secret Service, Bond's clothing is looked down upon at one point; he's also uncomfortable in what I'd read the more debonair clothing he must wear for his cover.

Maybe you mean "eccentric" with your taste selections. I know Bond says something about his food indulgences in Casino Royale, and plans how he'll spend his winnings in Moonraker (without much anticipating of living to retirement, why not?). Doesn't strike me as debonair nor bon-anything (sorry: The word and concept sticks in my throat).

When you write that Dalton's Bond is not a womanizer, then go on to say that he's not a convincing one, it seems we're now getting into my needing to agree with not just your criteria, but your assessment. Why make a survey, then? Dalton did fine at the end of the pre-title to The Living Daylights and with Pam on the cigar boat after they'd run out of gas. Or does one have to literally go up and down the halls one night, as Lazenby (in my opinion, not credibly) did?

Moving on to "haunted," we again seem on different pages regarding definition. To me it is something more rooted, more pervasive. Lazenby had no opportunity to be haunted in the main plot, and what happened after Tracy's death, again, to me, impresses more as "reaction." (And I thought Lazenby flubbed that, which is different from your view, but fine.) Dalton, on the other hand (and granted, he made great work of what the script provided), was haunted by Della's rape and death, the shark attack on Felix, and, to a lesser extent, Sharky's death. That shows throughout the movie as a motivator.

To summarize my response to your last paragraph, it would be that Dalton knew it without needing to display it. Again, this was the Fleming-Bond when he met Grant in From Russia with Love. And it was the Dalton-Bond when he arrived at the safe house with substitutions to the Harrod's order in The Living Daylights.

[spynovelfan]

Good answer! Some counter-points.

Maybe we're not defining terminology the same way. When you focus on "debonair," my quick Encarta Dictionary: English (North America) says, "looking well-dressed, sophisticated, and at ease," et cetera. That's not a character trait I came away with in reading the books.

I find this astonishing. You've read Ian Fleming's novels and came away with the idea that James Bond is not well-dressed or sophisticated? Apart from other people in this thread who have also coincidentally voted Timothy Dalton as closest... oh, I can't say that, can I? Let's just say instead that there must surely be very few people in the world who have read Fleming's work and come away with that impression.

In From Russia with Love, Bond pegs Grant as untrustworthy by the knot of his tie, which suggests an awareness, to be sure, but not a trend he, 007, would follow.

It suggests an extreme snobbery about clothes, doesn't it? He judges the man by his tie knot! It would clearly imply that Bond doesn't use a Windsor, but another knot, which he judges to be superior.

In On Her Majesty's Secret Service, Bond's clothing is looked down upon at one point

Where?

; he's also uncomfortable in what I'd read the more debonair clothing he must wear for his cover.

Again, where? I don't remember him being uncomfortable in Casino Royale. What of the examples I've given, such as the pyjama coat he discovered in Hong Kong?

Maybe you mean "eccentric" with your taste selections. I know Bond says something about his food indulgences in Casino Royale, and plans how he'll spend his winnings in Moonraker (without much anticipating of living to retirement, why not?). Doesn't strike me as debonair nor bon-anything (sorry: The word and concept sticks in my throat).

I mean that he doesn't follow the crowd. In Paris, he doesn't like the places recommended in Michelin, but has his own favourites. He doesn't like long sleeves on his shirts, or laces on his shoes. He likes cheap watches, but specially made Balkan cigarettes. Or how about this passage from Casino Royale as an example from the books of James Bond beign debonair, a bon-vivant and something of an individualist?

''A dry martini,' he said. 'One. In a deep champagne goblet.'

'Oui, monsieur.'

'Just a moment. Three measures of Gordon's, one of vodka, half a measure of Kina Lillet. Shake it very well until it's ice‑cold, then add a large thin slice of lemon‑peel. Got it?''

When you write that Dalton's Bond is not a womanizer, then go on to say that he's not a convincing one, it seems we're now getting into my needing to agree with not just your criteria, but your assessment.

Why? I was just saying that I wouldn't have given Dalton as good marks as you did on that trait.

Why make a survey, then?

You've lost me. I'm not allowed to make more than one point in the discussion? One is that I think the criteria stand as they are, and by cutting obvious traits like 'James Bond is debonair' you are hobbling the test. The second was that even when you hobbled it by removing those elements, I personally didn't agree with your score on one of the criteria. It seems surprising to me that anyone would find Dalton more of a womanising Bond than some of the others, so I was interested in your reasons for it. You have some. I don't agree with them, but okay.

Dalton did fine at the end of the pre-title to The Living Daylights and with Pam on the cigar boat after they'd run out of gas. Or does one have to literally go up and down the halls one night, as Lazenby (in my opinion, not credibly) did?.

Well, I personally wouldn't give Lazenby that high a rate for being a womaniser, because I didn't find him very convincing in that scene. And I personally didn't find any of Dalton's womanising scenes convincing either. I found Connery very convincing, when he steals Goldfinger's girl, for instance. But we both agree that Ian Fleming's James Bond is a womaniser, while at the same time he also has a romantic streak. I'm just trying to see how anyone could claim with a straight face that Fleming's character isn't debonair, interested in the high life (if French bothers you) or has a highly individualistic streak to his nature.

Moving on to "haunted," we again seem on different pages regarding definition. To me it is something more rooted, more pervasive. Lazenby had no opportunity to be haunted in the main plot, and what happened after Tracy's death, again, to me, impresses more as "reaction." (And I thought Lazenby flubbed that, which is different from your view, but fine.) Dalton, on the other hand (and granted, he made great work of what the script provided), was haunted by Della's rape and death, the shark attack on Felix, and, to a lesser extent, Sharky's death. That shows throughout the movie as a motivator.

Good points. That all makes sense to me.

To summarize my response to your last paragraph, it would be that Dalton knew it without needing to display it. Again, this was the Fleming-Bond when he met Grant in From Russia with Love. And it was the Dalton-Bond when he arrived at the safe house with substitutions to the Harrod's order in The Living Daylights.

So... he is interested in this stuff, or he isn't?

[marktmurphy]

As a very vague note, I've always thought that Dalton dresses quite like Fleming's Bond, especially in LTK. Sports jacket, casual shirt, deck shoes... feels like the kind of thing Fleming would put him in while he's abroad.

[Lachesis]

I like the approach to quantifying the 'Flemingness' although like some other posters I question that some of the aspects are what I take from the books, Anti-authoritarian is really not appropriate (it has much deeper meaning than just wanting to resign or go it alone on occasion), Romantic (yes but it is a a rather rare and for the most part underplayed aspeact of the character), equally how do you quantify things like Driven and individualistic?

Anyways here goes...

Connery

A Handsome (in a somewhat cruel way) 4
B Debonair 4
C Cold-blooded 4
D Bon-viveur 4
E Cocky 4
F Laconic 4
G Driven 3
H Menacing 4
I Individualistic 4
J Romantic 2
K Womanising 5
L Haunted 2
M Anti-authoritarian 3

Lazenby

A Handsome (in a somewhat cruel way) 3
B Debonair 4
C Cold-blooded 3
D Bon-viveur 4
E Cocky 4
F Laconic 4
G Driven 3
H Menacing 3
I Individualistic 3
J Romantic 4
K Womanising 4
L Haunted 2
M Anti-authoritarian 3

Moore

A Handsome (in a somewhat cruel way) 4
B Debonair 5
C Cold-blooded 3
D Bon-viveur 4
E Cocky 3
F Laconic 4
G Driven 1
H Menacing 1
I Individualistic 3
J Romantic 2
K Womanising 5
L Haunted 1
M Anti-authoritarian 3

Dalton

A Handsome (in a somewhat cruel way) 5
B Debonair 3
C Cold-blooded 4
D Bon-viveur 4
E Cocky 4
F Laconic 4
G Driven 4
H Menacing 4
I Individualistic 4
J Romantic 3
K Womanising 2
L Haunted 3
M Anti-authoritarian 3

Brosnan

A Handsome (in a somewhat cruel way) 4
B Debonair 5
C Cold-blooded 3
D Bon-viveur 3
E Cocky 3
F Laconic 3
G Driven 3
H Menacing 3
I Individualistic 2
J Romantic 3
K Womanising 4
L Haunted 3
M Anti-authoritarian 3

Craig

A Handsome (in a somewhat cruel way) 4
B Debonair 2
C Cold-blooded 5
D Bon-viveur 1
E Cocky 4
F Laconic 3
G Driven 5
H Menacing 4
I Individualistic 2
J Romantic 3
K Womanising 2
L Haunted 4
M Anti-authoritarian 3

Hence
1. Sean Connery & Timothy Dalton on 47
3. George Lazenby on 44
4. Daniel Craig & Pierce Brosnan on 42
6. Roger Moore on 39

As expected not a lot between them all good imho, still no one who is overwhelimingly Flemings Bond - interesting that the order is slightly different to my personal preference. The most Fleming of Bonds is not nescessarily the best Bond for the big screen, different mediums reward diferent aspects....errr... differently but a nice approach to an objective answer.

[spynovelfan]

I like the approach to quantifying the 'Flemingness' although like some other posters I question that some of the aspects are what I take from the books, Anti-authoritarian is really not appropriate (it has much deeper meaning than just wanting to resign or go it alone on occasion), Romantic (yes but it is a a rather rare and for the most part underplayed aspeact of the character), equally how do you quantify things like Driven and individualistic?

Thanks for doing it - hope it was fun. On your points, I think I've said several times that it's meant to be a rough idea. I've also argued at length why I think Bond is anti-authoritarian, and it involves more than just his wanting to resign or go it alone: his attitude to Shrublands, towards M when he takes away his gun, and the whole of the short story The Living Daylights would be good examples of it. M also mentions this aspect of his character in his obituary. I don't think the romantic aspect is any more underplayed than the others. He falls in love with Vesper, falls in love with and marries Tracy, and he obviously has strong feelings, perhaps even love, for Gala, Solitaire, and perhaps a couple of the others.

It is a rough idea. But hopefully a more precise one than 'He was very different from Roger Moore, brought back some of the seriousness and ruthlessness, and talked about Fleming's books' which I think are the usual criteria for awarding Dalton top points.

[David Schofield]

I might mischieviously suggest that using Spy's criterea Cary Grant's John Robie and/or Rober Thornhill have a far greater "Quantum of Fleming" than the six Bonds...

Don't suppose Grant used (or was supposed to use in the case of the EON actors) Fleming as his starting point, either.

[spynovelfan]

I might mischieviously suggest that using Spy's criterea Cary Grant's John Robie and/or Rober Thornhill have a far greater "Quantum of Fleming" than the six Bonds...

Don't suppose Grant used (or was supposed to use in the case of the EON actors) Fleming as his starting point, either.

Would love to see how you would score those characters, David! Why not do it? I think Robie would do rather better than Thornhill. Of course I've taken as given elements of the character such as his being a British secret agent, because all the Bond actors would score 5 out of 5 on that front. I've concentrated on what I see as his major traits. Other characters may share some of those. I suspect Simon Templar and Gregory Sallust would score highly, too.

[Trident]

That anti-authoritarian criterium would seem to bother some here. I understand this (up to a point) also to be part of a more general trait, Bond's not being entirely part of the establishment. His point of view is mostly that of an observer, mostly just that one step withdrawn that it takes to look at his surroundings with a mixture of amusement, interest and prosaic analysis.

Bond is not glowing in his appraisal of authority, doesn't show that crude and unquestioning blindness towards superiors that is often found with characters inclined in an authoritarian manner. Fanatism would seem to be an entirely alien concept to Bond, and authoritarian streaks, as depicted in the Japanese society in YOLT, are quite ludicrous in his view.

Finally, Bond's adversaries nearly invariably are figures of authority, command their underlings with unrelenting ferocity and set out to extend their power over Bond too. 'My dear boy', the words LeChiffre uses when addressing Bond, are symptomatic in the role allocation of Bond and the various villains in the books. Bond withstands this authority, resists the plans of the villain. In effect, Bond is a deeply anti-authoritarian figure to me.

[spynovelfan]

He's expelled from school, for a start!

[Lachesis]

He's expelled from school, for a start!

Many authority figures are troublesome students, often its that very resistance that drives them to become leaders (giving orders is preferable to taking them in almost every case surely). I understand some of the reasons given but have never felt that Bond is any more motivated in taking out a villain BECAUSE hes an authority figure. Equally isn't it quite normal to have a certain resistance/resentment for authority whenever you are in a positon of having to conform (it is for me anyways ^^). That impression plus the demands of his Navy and MI6 work surely can't resolve that as an unusually significant trait.

In any event I would have to say that facet of the character is not in any way in the hands of the actor playing the role but rather the script writer.

[spynovelfan]

He's expelled from school, for a start!

Many authority figures are troublesome students, often its that very resistance that drives them to become leaders (giving orders is preferable to taking them in almost every case surely). I understand some of the reasons given but have never felt that Bond is any more motivated in taking out a villain BECAUSE hes an authority figure. Equally isn't it quite normal to have a certain resistance/resentment for authority whenever you are in a positon of having to conform (it is for me anyways ^^). That impression plus the demands of his Navy and MI6 work surely can't resolve that as an unusually significant trait.

But I haven't made a list of unusual characteristic traits. I've listed the characteristic traits of Ian Fleming's James Bond. Different thing. Back to M:

'The nature of Commander Bond's duties with the Ministry, which were, incidentally, recognized by the appointment of C.M.G. in 1954, must remain confidential, nay secret, but his colleagues at the Ministry will allow that he performed them with outstanding bravery and distinction, although occasionally, through an impetuous strain in his nature, with a streak of the foolhardy that brought him in conflict with higher authority.'

And what's your view of The Living Daylights short story? Isn't that the epitome of anti-authoritarianism? I also think it is clear that certain traits Bond has are contradictory. He is simultaneously a womaniser and a romantic. He's ruthlessly professional at times, at others (as in TLD), he's the opposite.

I would grant that this trait is perhaps the weakest of those I've listed... but at the same time I think that no list of traits, even 13 of them, would avoid this sort of discussion. People are disputing that the character is debonair! I also see precious few serious suggestions for other character traits, and almost no direct references to Fleming. I think, really, these 13 traits do give a better idea of the character as depicted in the novels than, essentially, he's ruthless with a romantic streak. Dalton had both those down pat. But there were other elements Moore had down pat, that were in the novels. But we got a bit sick of the comedy, and so Dalton's idea that he went back to Fleming has stuck. For me, anyway, Dalton's interpretation is a long way from Fleming's character. He's much angrier, more serious, less hedonistic, less of a womanising bastard, and much more of a Heathcliff romantic hero-meets-serious-Cold War-spy. I love his performance, incidentally... but I don't think he was closest to Fleming.

All that is my view. But I think these traits are pretty undeniably all in Fleming's character.

In any event I would have to say that facet of the character is not in any way in the hands of the actor playing the role but rather the script writer.

I don't agree. I score Lazenby very high on 'cocky', but mark him down on 'romantic'. The script calls for him to be the latter much more, but he shines through on the former, because that was the vibe he gave off. The script calls for Roger Moore to be ruthless on occasion - I never believe it. I don't find his slapping women about convincing. Brosnan was meant to be haunted at times - it fell flat for me. So I think it's really a lot to do with the actor.

[00Twelve]

So I think it's really a lot to do with the actor.

And the circumstances he's given to show off said traits.

[Trident]

He's expelled from school, for a start!

Exactly. Then he cheats with his age to get into what was to become the MoD. Even when on regular duty at headquarters he isn't able to play by the book. The .45 Colt found among the debris of his 4.5 litre Bentley is apparently not registered, Bond's private ace in the hole. M replaces the Beretta (so it would be at least partially his fault for giving Bond a sidearm with a weak calibre), not the Colt*. Bond is notoriously driving with alcohol under his belt. He keeps his own shoes, lined with steel, from the FBI to wear them when visiting Harlem. He pays another visit, without knowledge of the FBI and while the CIA already politely asked him to get lost, to The Robber.

He kills Kitteridge and Winter but keeps the fact from M. Granted, on an open line, but he could have indicated a smokescreen is necessary, which he didn't. Bond intended to keep quiet about this.

His anger at M for replacing the Beretta was already mentioned, also his grim remark in the quick after-action report to M. His brief encounter with Goldfinger in Miami only comes up, because M mentions the name. Bond apparently didn't intend to give a report of his own accord.

Bond also doesn't like to be teamed up. He's extremely angry for getting Vesper as his companion in Royale and abhors the prospect of having to deal with a muscle-bound ex-college crew cut CIA contact, eager to proof British incompetence and working on his own career in TB.

OHMSS sees a number of professional insubordinations, from considering resignation to regarding the whole Blofeld hunt as a folly to marrying the daughter of a crime figure without any regard for security reasons. YOLT shows a likewise aptitude of Bond when he sets out for Shatterhand without any means to report his real identity to the SIS, should he fail to kill him. Authority in Bond's opinion is only as important as Bond decides.


*EDIT: Wrong. There would seem to be a second parcel waiting for him on his desk, presumably with a Colt.

Doesn't make much difference though.

[spynovelfan]

So I think it's really a lot to do with the actor.

And the circumstances he's given to show off said traits.

True, but in the course of even one film I think there are usually opportunities to see most of these sides of the character. I think Lazenby is cocky in lots of his scenes, whatever the script calls for, Craig likewise. Connery just comes across as laconic and menacing, in my view. Almost whatever the circumstances, Roger Moore's Bond is a high-living fun-loving chap, isn't he? I think the actors give off pretty strong impressions for a lot of these traits, whether or not the script requires it. And sometimes, against the script.

[Dell Deaton]

He's expelled from school....

... I haven't made a list of unusual characteristic traits. I've listed the characteristic traits of Ian Fleming's James Bond. Different thing.... I would grant that this trait is perhaps the weakest of those I've listed... but at the same time I think that no list of traits, even 13 of them, would avoid this sort of discussion. People are disputing that the character is debonair! I also see precious few serious suggestions for other character traits, and almost no direct references to Fleming. I think, really, these 13 traits do give a better idea of the character as depicted in the novels than, essentially, he's ruthless with a romantic streak. Dalton had both those down pat. But there were other elements Moore had down pat, that were in the novels. But we got a bit sick of the comedy, and so Dalton's idea that he went back to Fleming has stuck. For me, anyway, Dalton's interpretation is a long way from Fleming's character. He's much angrier, more serious, less hedonistic, less of a womanising bastard, and much more of a Heathcliff romantic hero-meets-serious-Cold War-spy. I love his performance, incidentally... but I don't think he was closest to Fleming....

Is it possible (and I observe this with all due respect, again, for your fine attempt to put some metrics to what may inevitably always come down to a gut-call), that you are the one with the preconceived notion: That Timothy Dalton cannot be considered the truest Ian Fleming James Bond?

If you don't mind me asking, spynovelfan, what if you took a few moments out and argued (as lawyers are trained to do) the opposite point of view?

What if you had to argue that Dalton was ultimately truest to the literary 007?

Could you present that case?

If so, how?

[DAN LIGHTER]

I thought it was a good list, and orginal idea, and indeed the results are surprising. I always had Connery at top in releation to the books but Craig comes out tops for me. He is Handsome in a cruel way, the brute.

[Trident]

If some category is missing here that in my opinion is a significant trait of Fleming's Bond, then I'd vote for introspectiveness. Bond has lots of inner life, a significant part of some books concerns itself with Bond's reactions to his world and his own character. It's not as if this is the main concern of the novels, but for an adventure hero there is remarkably much self-reflection in Bond. But on a list of traits that concerns itself with the relative merits of the actors this criterium would most likely be useless, as the films naturally don't dwell on this very much.