30 replies to this topic

[JamesBondJr]

Just a hypothectical question here, but what do you think the 007 world might have been like if Tim Dalton had taken over for Connery when he was first approached?

Cheers,
~Junior

[TheSaint]

Too weird-I don't think the world was ready, or ever will be ready, for a twentysomething Bond. Lazenby was 29 or closer to 30 than Dalton was. Casting anyone younger than Dalton would've seemed like a reboot at the time.

[Killmaster]

i tend to agree with dalton himself ... he may have been too young at that point to step into the role.

he was at a good age when he was finally able to accept. it would have been nice if moore had stepped down one film earlier ... we might have seen a more down-to-earth "avtak".

[Publius]

Just a hypothectical question here, but what do you think the 007 world might have been like if Tim Dalton had taken over for Connery when he was first approached?

Hard to say. I think they still would have gone with a darker, more realistic Bond, but I have no idea if it would have been as commercially successful in the 70s and early 80s as Moore was. At the very least, he would have been spared the 80s Bond fatigue.

Also, Dalton never struck me as someone willing to do more than three or four, so he would have probably been out of the picture by '79 (presuming he started in '71). Don't know who could have taken over then. Sam Neill? Don't think he made it big yet. Any of those rumored for FYEO? Butterfly effect, so who knows.

Still, as much as I love Dalton's portrayal, I agree with him that he was too young in the 70s. I for one think the best alternate history involving Dalton would have him debut in '85 and finishing in '91 or '93.

[JimmyBond]

Still, as much as I love Dalton's portrayal, I agree with him that he was too young in the 70s. I for one think the best alternate history involving Dalton would have him debut in '85 and finishing in '91 or '93.

He was actually approached in 69 for On Her Majesty's Secret Service. I think he would have been great in the film, but having a young Bond marry and go through what Bond goes through in the movie, it probably wouldnt have worked.

[Publius]

He was actually approached in 69 for On Her Majesty's Secret Service. I think he would have been great in the film, but having a young Bond marry and go through what Bond goes through in the movie, it probably wouldnt have worked.

That's what I used to think too, but now I'm not so sure, as I've read at least one source stating that his first actual "approach" was after OHMSS, namely for Diamonds Are Forever. I could very well be wrong, though.

[DavidSomerset]

If Timmy was in LALD, then the franchise would have ended there. Roger came in at the right time of the franchise. Serious would not have worked in the 70's. Imagine a serious TSWLM or MR!!!

Timmy came in when there was need to go serious.

[Publius]

If Timmy was in LALD, then the franchise would have ended there. Roger came in at the right time of the franchise. Serious would not have worked in the 70's. Imagine a serious TSWLM or MR!!!

Timmy came in when there was need to go serious.

I don't know about that. LALD and TMWTGG were fairly dark in tone (minus the slide whistle and miscellaneous cheese), and yet the former did spectacularly well (Golden Gun might have suffered from a bad release date? not sure).

Even Spy and Moonraker had their serious moments (Bond confronting Anya about killing her lover, Drax killing Corrine). FYEO was certainly Dalton-era material. I think what made all those succeed was not being relatively lighter, but being epic action-adventure.

I guess I simply don't buy into the theory that something happened in '77 (or '73) that necessitated Moore's preferred Bond, or something in '87 necessitating Dalton's. Moore obviously had his fair share of downs (MWTGG, OP, AVTAK) to go with his ups, so it's not even like one flavor was in demand during that era.

I just think his and Dalton's interpretations appealed to different enough audiences that it's impossible to say how either would have fared in an alternate time period.

[Santa]

If Tim had taken over after Sean, the world would have seen a lot less of Roger Moore and been a darker place as a result.

[MovieMaestro]

I agree with Somerset...Despite whatever misgivings people may have, Roger was the right man at the right time, as humor wasn't Dalton's strength, and that seemed to be the sort of thing that the audiences wanted from Bond at the time.

[DavidSomerset]

In the period from 1970 to 1980, these were the box office champ movies:
Star Wars (1977)
Star Wars: Episode V - The Em
Jaws (1975)
Grease (1978)
Exorcist, The (1973)
Close Encounters of the Third
Superman (1978)
Saturday Night Fever (1977)
Moonraker (1979)
Jaws 2 (1978)
Rocky II (1979)
Spy Who Loved Me, The (1977)
Alien (1979)
Live and Let Die (1973)
Sting, The (1973)
Animal House (1978)
Rocky Horror Picture Show, Th
Star Trek: The Motion Picture
Godfather, The (1972)
Smokey and the Bandit (1977)
Blazing Saddles (1974)
Rocky (1976)
Diamonds Are Forever (1971)
Towering Inferno, The (1974)
American Graffiti (1973)

The audience at that time didnt exactly like their popcorn entertainment with a tinge of dark (I am not talking horror but dark tones). So movies like Smokey and the 3 Roger movies figure in this. Compare this with 1980 to 1990:

E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial (1982)
Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of
Star Wars: Episode V - The Empire
Home Alone (1990)
Ghost (1990)
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusad
Pretty Woman (1990)
Dances with Wolves (1990)
Batman (1989)
Rain Man (1988)
Raiders of the Lost Ark (1981)
Back to the Future (1985)
Who Framed Roger Rabbit (1988)
Top Gun (1986)
Indiana Jones and the Temple of D
Back to the Future Part II (1989)
Crocodile Dundee (1986)
Fatal Attraction (1987)
Beverly Hills Cop (1984)
Rocky IV (1985)
Rambo: First Blood Part II (1985)
Beverly Hills Cop II (1987)
Look Who's Talking (1989)
Coming to America (1988)
Ghost Busters (1984

Ah ha no Bond movie in top 25!
Mostly Bang Bang action movies worked in 80's, where a suave Roger/Timmy starts to falter and we need a Rambo type character. This is where Bond and Timmy also suffered the most.

The 90's is again time for a mix of movies like in the 70's and so Bond and Pierce is back.

Titanic (1997)
Star Wars: Episode I - The
Jurassic Park (1993)
Independence Day (1996)
Lion King, The (1994)
Forrest Gump (1994)
Sixth Sense, The (1999)
Lost World: Jurassic Park,
Men in Black (1997)
Armageddon (1998)
Mission: Impossible II (20
Home Alone (1990)
Ghost (1990)
Terminator 2: Judgment Day
Aladdin (1992)
Twister (1996)
Toy Story 2 (1999)
Saving Private Ryan (1998)
Mission: Impossible (1996)
Pretty Woman (1990)
Matrix, The (1999)
Gladiator (2000)
Tarzan (1999)
Cast Away (2000)
Dances with Wolves (1990)

Ah ha no Bond movie in top 25! Imagine Bond losing out to Dances with Wolves!

Funny part is that the same trend continues now:
Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King, The (2003)
Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest (2006)
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone (2001)
Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers, The (2002)
Shrek 2 (2004)
Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (2005)
Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets (2002)
Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring, The (2001)
Finding Nemo (2003)
Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith (2005)
Spider-Man (2002)
Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban (2004)
Spider-Man 2 (2004)
Da Vinci Code, The (2006)
Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, The (2005)
Matrix Reloaded, The (2003)
Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl (2003)
Star Wars: Episode II - Attack of the Clones (2002)
Ice Age: The Meltdown (2006)
Incredibles, The (2004)
Passion of the Christ, The (2004)
War of the Worlds (2005)
King Kong (2005)
Mission: Impossible II (2000)
Monsters, Inc. (2001)

So Danny Boy and Bond may still have a chance in this decade. Blonde hair, notwithstanding.

QED: Roger was correct for his time. Timmy would have unnecessarily made Bond serious in the crazy 70's.

[Double-Oh Agent]

Just a hypothectical question here, but what do you think the 007 world might have been like if Tim Dalton had taken over for Connery when he was first approached?

Hard to say. I think they still would have gone with a darker, more realistic Bond, but I have no idea if it would have been as commercially successful in the 70s and early 80s as Moore was. At the very least, he would have been spared the 80s Bond fatigue.

Also, Dalton never struck me as someone willing to do more than three or four, so he would have probably been out of the picture by '79 (presuming he started in '71). Don't know who could have taken over then. Sam Neill? Don't think he made it big yet. Any of those rumored for FYEO? Butterfly effect, so who knows.

Still, as much as I love Dalton's portrayal, I agree with him that he was too young in the 70s. I for one think the best alternate history involving Dalton would have him debut in '85 and finishing in '91 or '93.

I think Timothy Dalton was too young and not yet right for the part when his name originally came up under discussion for potential Bonds. His ideal time came when he finally got the role.

Meanwhile, Roger Moore was the perfect candidate to take on the 007 mantle through the 1970s. In fact, I think he was probably the only man who could have seen Bond through the decade and well into the '80s.

As for a best alternate history involving Dalton, I agree with you Publius that such a tenure would have been from 1985/1987 to 1993. The only question being would general audiences accept him for such a long time period?

[JamesBondJr]

Everyone seems to think the same way I do: Dalton was too young in '69 to take over and, if he did, there's no guarantee that it would've worked.

I've always thought that he was just right for the time when TLD and LTK came out. By that point, the series needed seriousness anyway. Dalton did what he did very well.

I personally think that Dalton's three films should've been AVTAK, TLD and LTK. I love Roger Moore, but it's a shame Dalton couldn't have gotten in on AVTAK. Wasn't Moore talking of retiring before AVTAK anyway?

~Junior

[Publius]

Star Wars (1977)
Jaws (1975)
Exorcist, The (1973)
Alien (1979)
Godfather, The (1972)

I'd argue those, if not some of the others (just listed the ones with which I'm most familiar) were far from lighthearted camp-fests. Even more so for the 90s ones you listed as being reason for Pierce's brand of Bond. Just because something's epic or humorous doesn't mean it can't be gritty and dark. On the contrary, I think those elements work best mixed together, and they've sold well in the past (Indy is my favorite example).

What's more, I can easily picture a Dalton Bond movie in the late 70s having been a great success, if it was epic enough without being fantasy and had a fair of share of black humor (which would play better to Dalton's strengths). Hell, I think Tim would have been fantastic in more dark and realistic but action-packed films like Licence to Kill, and that they would have done great business in the 90s (particularly with those comfy winter releases).

But I agree that things noticeably changed by the 80s and action movies were indeed on the rise, and that's probably part of the reason Bond movies (Moore, Dalton, and even Connery) weren't doing so hot in the 80s. From my perspective over here in the 21st century (and having grown up on many an 80s movie), is that Bond suffered from a combination of saturation and fatigue (the biggest hiccup had been the 6 months more than normal wait for TSWLM). When he went past eleven flipping installments and ran out of radical extremes, people simply grew bored.

By the way, I don't think you adjusted for inflation, but I'll forgive you because you didn't compare across a greater span than ten years (still a distortion, but not as bad as over multiple decades). And I think Danny will do just fine, for the record. The four year break (not to mention there only being four Bond films in seventeen years) and the controversy surrounding him will ensure a sizeable opening weekend. CR will sink or swim on its own merits (and maybe Dan's hair color) after that.

[JamesBondJr]

But I agree that things noticeably changed by the 80s and action movies were indeed on the rise, and that's probably part of the reason Bond movies (Moore, Dalton, and even Connery) weren't doing so hot in the 80s. From my perspective over here in the 21st century (and having grown up on many an 80s movie), is that Bond suffered from a combination of saturation and fatigue (the biggest hiccup had been the 6 months more than normal wait for TSWLM). When he went past eleven flipping installments and ran out of radical extremes, people simply grew bored.

...And I think Danny will do just fine, for the record. The four year break (not to mention there only being four Bond films in seventeen years) and the controversy surrounding him will ensure a sizeable opening weekend. CR will sink or swim on its own merits (and maybe Dan's hair color) after that.

Nice words Publius. Couldn't agree more.

And I think Daniel Craig will do well also. And especially after all this hype and controversey, CR will definately make cash. Of course cash doesn't always equal success.

[Publius]

Nice words Publius. Couldn't agree more.

And I think Daniel Craig will do well also. And especially after all this hype and controversey, CR will definately make cash. Of course cash doesn't always equal success.

Thanks!

And yes, cash doesn't equal success, but I think CR stands a strong chance (more so than anything in many years) of being as artistically solid as it is profitable.

And to answer an earlier question of yours, I think (but could be mistaken) that Moore first started seriously considering stepping down after Moonraker, and it became more likely with each passing movie, until it was all but understood by the time of AVTAK that he'd be leaving. Although I have also heard TLD was originally written with him in mind.

As much as I love Dalton, and wish he had gotten his start in '85, I think AVTAK as we see it wouldn't have been a good debut for him. It's probable that something more up his alley would have been made instead, though.

[Thunderfinger]

Dalton was too young 35 years ago, but he could easily have done all of the 80s Bond films.As much as I love FYEO the way it is, it would have been a great introduction for Dalton as well.

There would

Edited by Thunderfinger, 25 September 2006 - 05:01 PM.

[Andrew]

I agree with those who say that Dalton was too young. If there was any Bond that I would've liked to have seen come in earlier for OHMSS it would be Moore.

[DamnCoffee]

Dalton wouldn't be good as Bond in 69' he would be like a little boy playing dress up, he wouldn't be as mature and Bondain as he was in 87', saying that though i wouldn't have minded of him succeeding Moore after FYEO and continue to be Bond up untill 91'

[JamesBondJr]

Dalton wouldn't be good as Bond in 69' he would be like a little boy playing dress up, he wouldn't be as mature and Bondain as he was in 87', saying that though i wouldn't have minded of him succeeding Moore after FYEO and continue to be Bond up untill 91'

That'd be interesting. Dalton stepping down at the right time and Brosnan stepping in at the right time. They might've done that already come to think of it, considering the way things worked out, but I think that Dalton stopping in 1991 and Brosnan going in until...I don't know how long would've worked out nicely.

Cuz I think Dalton said that by the time they were ready to make GoldenEye he felt he was a little past his time.

Edited by JamesBondJr, 25 September 2006 - 09:57 PM.

[Turn]

The big question is was Dalton really asked in 1969? We've had several threads discussing when and if he was asked to replace Connery, was it after YOLT or DAF? Or was Cubby Broccoli just scouting him out for the future? He's apparently made statements that made it sound like it was both times and then several other times during the Moore era when he was threatening holdouts.

However, had he been asked in 1969, he'd have faced the same situation as Lazenby and that one was pretty much a no-win.

[DavidSomerset]

However, had he been asked in 1969, he'd have faced the same situation as Lazenby and that one was pretty much a no-win.

If you compare Wooden George with Hamlet Timmy, I would rather see a 29 year old Timmy in OHMSS than Wooden George any day. I wouldnt see Wooden George as Napolean Solo too if I could. But you are right there can be only One ...Sean. Timmy BTW would have hammed pefectly at the end of OHMSS. But then without John Glen as director ( he was only the ASStDirector - think about the perks of being an ASSt. director with all the Bond girls around ) there would have been no monkeys to scare Timmy.
If John Glen had directed OHMSS, there would have been a monkey which cries next to Bond after Teresa conks out.

Edited by DavidSomerset, 26 September 2006 - 03:53 AM.

[Richie]

Dalton was OK but, he ticked me off when I read an interview he did with an old James Bond fan club I belonged to back then. He didn't seem to understand James Bond fan devotion. The interviewer asked if he had any idols growing up and he said kind of half heartedly he did like a footballer back then. The interviewer stopped the interview at that point figuring there was no sense in continuing. The only thing I liked about Timothy Dalton as Bond was he brought the series back to a more serious mode. I loved Roger Moore as Bond but, most of his movies seemed almost too tongue in cheek.

Rich

[Santa]

I'm not quite sure why that should tick you off. Is it because you wanted him to say James Bond was his idol growing up? He must have been about 8 when Casino Royale was published and already a grown up when Dr No came out. I'd be more hacked off if he had said JB had been his idol growing up as that would clearly have been .

[DavidSomerset]

.... The interviewer asked if he had any idols growing up and he said kind of half heartedly he did like a footballer back then. The interviewer stopped the interview at that point figuring there was no sense in continuing. .....

Was this a James Bond interview or was like kind of like a Trekkie convention. Did people have to dress up like James Bond and give a secret handshake and password to enter the M room?

What santa says is correct, Timmy is a decent actor who will not play to the gallery because there is a need to. Anyone who says James Bond is his idol needs to have his head checked. James Bond as idol is going into "Misery" - "Play Misty for me" territory.

[Blonde Bond]

If Tim had taken over after Sean, the world would have seen a lot less of Roger Moore and been a darker place as a result.

Speaking the truth there, santajosep. I think Moore made this world a better place for us, bond fans , to live in.

God Bless that good ole Roger

[Richie]

I did not expect Dalton to say James Bond was his idol. It just appeared that Dalton was not very enthusiastic about the roll and could not understand what the big deal was about James Bond. Pierce Brosnan on the other hand was very enthusiastic about the roll and it showed in his performances.

And no, the James Bond Fan club was way before the internet was out and was one of the few ways you could get any info about the up coming movies. The club president was a college student at the time and did a great job for the times.

Gosh! Just thought I'd drop into this site to get some info on the new movie and throw around a few questions to people who had a like interest as myself. I by far am no expert about James Bond. I love the books and the movies but, I do have a life and do not run around memorizing all the scripts and all the details.

Rich

[DavidSomerset]

Peace, man!
You are right that Timmy was not so enthu about being 007 which why his acting showed it too. Pierce was like a school kid who got picked by the teacher to recite a poem and his enthu showed.
I hope I dont need to memorize the scripts too

[JamesBondJr]

I think Dalton was enthusiastic about the role, just not about the way the role had been played before he got on the scene. His website says that he wanted to make it a little more serious, that "living on the edge" quote that later made it onto TLD and LTK movie posters.

[Publius]

I did not expect Dalton to say James Bond was his idol. It just appeared that Dalton was not very enthusiastic about the roll and could not understand what the big deal was about James Bond. Pierce Brosnan on the other hand was very enthusiastic about the roll and it showed in his performances.

But really, aside from Pierce, were any of the Bonds "enthusiastic" about the role? Sean was itching to leave as early as the filming of Thunderball (and has moaned about the part countless times), George quit before OHMSS even came out, and even Rog quite seriously flirted with departing after Moonraker. As long as they give the acting their all, though, it honestly doesn't matter to me.

What's funny is that I never saw in Brosnan the enthusiasm I truly believe he had for the role, yet I did see as much from the others, who I think cared less. Perhaps it's because Dalton's scripts played to his strengths, as did Moore's, while the best Brosnan got was much of TND and some of DAD. In a third the time and with half as many films, Dalton put his own definitive stamp on Bond while Brosnan didn't, even though he could have. It's a shame and a lesson I hope, but doubt, EON has learned.

I also give credit to Dalton for having read the novels (have any of the others done it? I think Brosnan might have read some) and trying to make the character human again. Considering how he turned down the offer before, and what he's chosen for a career since Bond (to say nothing of how deeply secretive he is about his personal life), I highly doubt he would have accepted if he didn't think he could do something with the part and was eager to do so.