107 replies to this topic

[spynovelfan]

I think we should all try to write a more outrageous sex scene than the one Jim has just quoted.

I vote Jim to start.

No badgers, please - we've had *quite* enough of that fetish of yours, and the stimulation of badger nipples isn't something I want to contemplate.

[zencat]

He kept up this rhythm for several minutes, using her natural lubrication to slide his thumb up and down and around her clitoris, while keeping his two fingers deep within her.

Presumably you added this sentence for your own amusement? There is *not* a James Bond novel where we learn he puts two fingers inside a woman, is there? Please tell me there's not!

Why is this such a big deal?

[spynovelfan]

He kept up this rhythm for several minutes, using her natural lubrication to slide his thumb up and down and around her clitoris, while keeping his two fingers deep within her.

Presumably you added this sentence for your own amusement? There is *not* a James Bond novel where we learn he puts two fingers inside a woman, is there? Please tell me there's not!

Why is this such a big deal?

It's not a big deal at all, zencat. I haven't read the book in question, so maybe it works in context. I could just imagine Jim tacking that sentence on to the quote for fun, though, and it surprised me something so explicit would be in an official Bond novel - that's all.

I've only read one Benson novel, so I'm new to this idea. Give me a second to adjust here.

[zencat]

He kept up this rhythm for several minutes, using her natural lubrication to slide his thumb up and down and around her clitoris, while keeping his two fingers deep within her.

Presumably you added this sentence for your own amusement? There is *not* a James Bond novel where we learn he puts two fingers inside a woman, is there? Please tell me there's not!

Why is this such a big deal?

It's not a big deal at all, zencat. I haven't read the book in question, so maybe it works in context. I could just imagine Jim tacking that sentence on to the quote for fun, though, and it surprised me something so explicit would be in an official Bond novel - that's all.

I've only read one Benson novel, so I'm new to this idea. Give me a minute to adjust.

See, that's the thing, I don't find that all that explicit for a James Bond novel. Fleming's books certainly pushed the envelope in this regard. Didn't people accuse him of writing "pørnography" in his day? Frankly, I think the books should be more explicit and I think that's what Benson was going for. Actually, I though Benson showed restraint stopping where he did. I would have kept going and really given you guys something to tut-tut over.

[spynovelfan]

See, that's the thing, I don't find that all that explicit for a James Bond novel. Fleming's books certainly pushed the envelope in this regard. Didn't people accuse him of writing "pørnography" in his day? Frankly, I think the books should be more explicit and I think that's what Benson was going for. Actually, I though Benson showed restraint stopping where he did. I would have kept going and really given you guys something to tut tut over.

I can certainly see the argument that if you look at 'inflation', this is no more pørnographic for now than Fleming was then. But you don't find it all that explicit for a James Bond novel? Where's something more explicit?

[Loomis]

Didn't people accuse him of writing "pørnography" in his day?

I imagine so, but I doubt that Fleming "pushed the envelope", even for his time, at least in terms of explicitness. Mind you, that isn't to say that there aren't erotic moments in his books, but then you don't, of course, need dirty words for that (not that "clitoris" is a dirty word, but you catch my drift), or even sex scenes.

I'm currently on a Fleming kick, aiming to re-read all the novels before the release of CASINO ROYALE, and am just about to start DR NO; four books down, what really hits me about Fleming is just how brutal his work is. Violent, nasty, and leaves a bad taste in the mouth. I guess that's where the "pørnography" lies, and also in the way Bond tends to take what he wants, woman-wise, before (there are a couple of exceptions, obviously) heading off merrily to the next conquest, quite untroubled by conscience or convention. That was probably what people found shocking in the '50s. Not because Bond was doing things no one had done before, of course, but because it was all so casually dotted about a series of popular (and relatively "respectable") thrillers.

[Hitch]

"Two thumbs up!"

[TortillaFactory]

Just to clarify, I don't have a problem with how explicit Benson was, but the fact that he is using explicitness (this is probably not a real word) to cover his inability to write anything even mildly exciting. The scene that Jim transcribed is exactly how I remember, and it's about as sexy as watching paint dry.

(And please don't link me to any paint-drying-fetish websites. I don't want to know.)

I think the phrase "continuing the nipple stimulation" really sums it up, though. It's so very clinical, yet pedestrian. I love it when he talks dirty.

[Anyone else mildly unsettled by the description of Tylyn "squirming," etc.? Does it really sound like she's enjoying herself? And don't even get me started on the whole lead-up. "You have such strong hands. Make love to me with just your hands." Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot. Over.]

[Trident]

Just to clarify, I don't have a problem with how explicit Benson was, but the fact that he is using explicitness (this is probably not a real word) to cover his inability to write anything even mildly exciting. The scene that Jim transcribed is exactly how I remember, and it's about as sexy as watching paint dry.

(And please don't link me to any paint-drying-fetish websites. I don't want to know.)

I think the phrase "continuing the nipple stimulation" really sums it up, though. It's so very clinical, yet pedestrian. I love it when he talks dirty.

[Anyone else mildly unsettled by the description of Tylyn "squirming," etc.? Does it really sound like she's enjoying herself? And don't even get me started on the whole lead-up. "You have such strong hands. Make love to me with just your hands." Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot. Over.]

Actually, when I first read the scene in NDOD I didn't like it very much but quickly forgot it as I continued reading. Now that this thread came up with it, I wondered what it was exactly that made the scene so dull in my perception. And I think you just nailed that reason. Its not only that Tylyn didn't seem to enjoy herself, Bond too sounds more than a little bit bored. And I think that's not because of any explicity in the paragraph. It just lacks the feeling of pleasure, luxury and lust that I came to expect when imagining Bond's life. And is there a better suiting chance for enjoying life than when in bed with a beautiful woman? That's, what I feel is missing in that act.

Edited by Trident, 04 April 2006 - 05:07 AM.

[Jim]

"Two thumbs up!"

Oh God.

However explicit or inexplicit it is, what it comes across as is a shock tactic to disguise the lack of passion. The Benson Bond is not a lover, he is just a "man who has sex". True, it could have gone further and true, it's not that explicit (save when set against the rest of the Bond books) but its utter lack of sensuality is the "problem". "They had sex" would be equally as passionate, shorter but, I accept, considerably less amusing.

[TortillaFactory]

Actually, when I first read the scene in NDOD I didn't like it very much but quickly forgot it as I continued reading. Now that this thread came up with it, I wondered what it was exactly that made the scene so dull in my perception. And I think you just nailed that reason. Its not only that Tylyn didn't seem to enjoy herself, Bond too sounds more than a little bit bored. And I think that's not because of any explicity in the paragraph. It just lacks the feeling of pleasure, luxury and lust that I came to expect when imagining Bond's life. And is there a better suiting chance for enjoying life than when in bed with a beautiful woman? That's, what I feel is missing in that act.

Nailed.

Hur hur.

You have nailed it, though. There is no excitement, sensuality, or passion. All the explicitness in the world can't fix that.

However explicit or inexplicit it is, what it comes across as is a shock tactic to disguise the lack of passion. The Benson Bond is not a lover, he is just a "man who has sex". True, it could have gone further and true, it's not that explicit (save when set against the rest of the Bond books) but its utter lack of sensuality is the "problem".

You said what I said, but a million times better. As usual. My hat's off to you. For all Tylyn's "make loooooove to me," it really is just sex. And bad sex at that.

[Robert Watts]

As said above (and in my earlier post) it is not the explicitness but rather the lack of sensuality, something that Fleming could capture in two sentences better then Benson could in a paragraph.

[Hitch]

I hope I'm not insulting anyone's intelligence when I say that my "Two thumbs up!" post wasn't meant to show approval of the scene in question. After reading the paragraph and, like spynovelfan, hoping against hope that this wasn't an extract from an official James Bond novel, I wondered why Mr Benson didn't just replace the entire scene with Roger Ebert's catchphrase - it's equally erotic and just as perfunctory and anatomically direct.

Sex scenes are notoriously difficult to write, and many writers understandably skirt the issue, so I applaud Benson for his ambition. I haven't read any of his James Bond novels, so I can't comment on their overall quality, though his reputation does seem to be pretty low among Bond fans. But after reading this scene...

...goodness. It's awful. But I don't blame him for its poor quality. Where, oh where, was his editor? Surely the people at IFP must have read this and winced? At the very least, a good editor would have advised Benson to rewrite the scene, if not remove it altogether.

"When it was erect, he slowly and gently twisted it, pulled it, twisted it, pulled it..."

What is Bond doing here? Tuning a radio?

"Then, keeping his left hand on one breast and continuing the nipple stimulation, he slid his right hand down to the mound between her legs."

Cracking a safe?

"He kept up this rhythm for several minutes..."

Has he got an instruction manual propped up on the pillow? I half expect him to say, "You are now sufficiently lubricated. We may procreate."

The entire scene is as erotic as a jellied eel. (My apologies to fish fetishists.) But it's not the lack of sexiness that bothers me (though Fleming was superb at teasing and testing), it's the poor writing. I can write dull, amateurish and unerotic prose at the drop of a hat - look, I'm doing it now - but I expect more from a James Bond novel. Where's the glamour, the intimacy, the tenderness, the ruthlessness? Where's the appeal to the senses, the passion, the (my blushes) arousal?

When it comes to writing sex scenes Mr Benson has a tin clitoris.

[David Schofield]

In Doubleshot, doesn't he end up shagging two twins at the end? OK, the book's theme is double's but really!

Now we really are into the world of wish fulfillment!

[TortillaFactory]

Now we really are into the world of wish fulfillment!

For some reason I keep thinking of Office Space. "Two chicks at the same time!"

But I think you've hit on something Jim mentioned, which is that Benson made an attempt to write film-like stories on paper. Lit!Bond never had it so good. Sure, he occasionally landed a gorgeous lesbian, but he practically had to go to hell and back to win her over.

[Jim]

Now we really are into the world of wish fulfillment!

For some reason I keep thinking of Office Space. "Two chicks at the same time!"

But I think you've hit on something Jim mentioned, which is that Benson made an attempt to write film-like stories on paper. Lit!Bond never had it so good.

Not so much LitBond as ClitBond, then.

(sorry)

[Lazenby880]

You know, I cannot help but be reminded of an excerpt from one of my mother's books, Carol Clewlow's NOT MARRIED, NOT BOTHERED. In it, the narrator says:

“Well, I don’t do sex scenes (it’s one of the pleasures of being a children’s author). As far as I’m concerned, sex scenes in books are either too clinical* or flowery,† too athletic‡ or squeamishly embarrassing.

Edited by Lazenby880, 04 April 2006 - 04:43 PM.

[TortillaFactory]

Benson = clincial.

Or, before Jim says it, clitical.

Sorry.

[Loomis]

Stop cliticising the poor man, you harsh bunch of people.

In Doubleshot, doesn't he end up shagging two twins at the end? OK, the book's theme is double's but really!

Now we really are into the world of wish fulfillment!

And whatshername in "High Time to Kill" (the woman who joins Bond on the expedition) is a sex addict who swings both ways.

[zencat]

Stop cliticising the poor man, you harsh bunch of people.

In Doubleshot, doesn't he end up shagging two twins at the end? OK, the book's theme is double's but really!

Now we really are into the world of wish fulfillment!

And whatshername in "High Time to Kill" (the woman who joins Bond on the expedition) is a sex addict who swings both ways.

What? She is? I don't remember that?

BTW, Bond shags the two gyspy girls in FRWL, so why are we not dumping on Fleming's wish fulfillment?

[Loomis]

Stop cliticising the poor man, you harsh bunch of people.

In Doubleshot, doesn't he end up shagging two twins at the end? OK, the book's theme is double's but really!

Now we really are into the world of wish fulfillment!

And whatshername in "High Time to Kill" (the woman who joins Bond on the expedition) is a sex addict who swings both ways.

What? She is? I don't remember that?

I'm pretty sure about this, because it struck me at the time as "one of those things Fleming would never have been able to get into one of his books". Hope Kendall, her name is, or maybe it's the other one, whose name I forget, but it's definitely "High Time to Kill", and it's mentioned at some point when they're all up the mountain.

Admittedly, it's only something that the character confesses to Bond, and it's hardly dealt with at all (so don't go buying HTTK thinking it's gonna be a juicy read, fellas ), but it's the kind of thing a Bond fan reared on Fleming picks up on, since it's obviously a far cry from "'Oh, how one would love to behave with gay abandon,' Vesper sighed", and that sort of thing.

The nightclub scene between Bond and Sunni in "Zero Minus Ten" (possibly Benson's finest, and one of the very best of the post-Fleming novels, IMO) is also reasonably explicit by Bond novel standards (still fairly tame, though, of course).

BTW, Bond shags the two gyspy girls in FRWL, so why are we not dumping on Fleming's wish fulfillment?

Sorry, zen, but he doesn't shag them in Fleming's novel (I've just read it, so I remember this). Although Vavra, the gipsy leader, does promise Bond that "Zora and Vida are yours until their breasts fall" (charming). After the fight, Bond and Kerim go straight to assassinate Krilencu. So the idea that 007 has the two gipsy girls is an Eon invention.

[zencat]

Sorry, zen, but he doesn't shag them in Fleming's novel (I've just read it, so I remember this). Although Vavra, the gipsy leader, does promise Bond that "Zora and Vida are yours until their breasts fall" (charming). After the fight, Bond and Kerim go straight to assassinate Krilencu. So the idea that 007 has the two gipsy girls is an Eon invention.

Ah, screenwriters then. Horny lot.

[Loomis]

Sorry, zen, but he doesn't shag them in Fleming's novel (I've just read it, so I remember this). Although Vavra, the gipsy leader, does promise Bond that "Zora and Vida are yours until their breasts fall" (charming). After the fight, Bond and Kerim go straight to assassinate Krilencu. So the idea that 007 has the two gipsy girls is an Eon invention.

Ah, screenwriters then. Horny lot.

LOL! You Hollywood sex-and-violence merchants. It must have taken a pretty sick collection of minds to come up with a script alteration like that one.

(So it may not have happened in the book, but then it's hardly as though the idea wouldn't have occurred to Fleming. )

[TortillaFactory]

(So it may not have happened in the book, but then it's hardly as though the idea wouldn't have occurred to Fleming. wink.gif )

Undoubtedly it occured to Bond too. Possibly more than once. Possibly in the bath. (Okay, I'll stop now.) The point is that it DOESN'T happen, which is part of the idiom of Fleming's Bond. Yearns and fails to receive. Sigh.

[Jim]

And whatshername in "High Time to Kill" (the woman who joins Bond on the expedition) is a sex addict who swings both ways.

What? She is? I don't remember that?

BTW, Bond shags the two gyspy girls in FRWL, so why are we not dumping on Fleming's wish fulfillment?

Well, it is only about half a paragraph and then forgotten about... but really, you forgot about Dr Hopeless Plotdevice and her "red and large" areolae? One of the more memorable Benson women, if you want a good laugh.

It's not the wish fulfilment. It's the expression of the wish fulfilment that appears to be bothering folk.

Still, better to be talked about than not.

[TortillaFactory]

It's the expression of the wish fulfilment that appears to be bothering folk.

Yes. The phrase "chillingly unsexy" comes to mind.

I forget which of the Benson Playboy shorts it is that ends with him in the hospital, whereupon a beautiful blonde woman climbs on top of him and shoves her breast in his mouth. The way it's written, it sounds exceedingly uncomfortable for all parties involved. Granted, it would be hard to write that without it being silly - so the question remains, why write it at all?

[Trident]

Stop cliticising the poor man, you harsh bunch of people.

I'm pretty sure about this, because it struck me at the time as "one of those things Fleming would never have been able to get into one of his books". Hope Kendall, her name is, or maybe it's the other one, whose name I forget, but it's definitely "High Time to Kill", and it's mentioned at some point when they're all up the mountain.

Admittedly, it's only something that the character confesses to Bond, and it's hardly dealt with at all (so don't go buying HTTK thinking it's gonna be a juicy read, fellas ), but it's the kind of thing a Bond fan reared on Fleming picks up on, since it's obviously a far cry from "'Oh, how one would love to behave with gay abandon,' Vesper sighed", and that sort of thing.

Oh, Hope Kendall. I had forgotten about her. One thing that came to my mind when you mentioned her, wasn't her swingin both ways, but her exam of Bond's prostate. And Benson mentioning that "She wasn't very gentle with that exam, either." How's that for kink?

[TortillaFactory]

her exam of Bond's prostate

I sincerely hope to never ever see that phrase, ever again.

[David Schofield]

For what it's worth, my favourite "Benson does inuendo" is -

In Doubleshot, the real Bond shags the Pei woman (I think that's her name) while pretending to be Peradur Glyn (sic), the fake Bond. While she impaling herself on him, Benson remarks to the effect that she has never felt anything like it before. Later, she confesses to Bond that this is what gave him away as being the real thing, not the fake.

The conclusion is clear - Bond was given away by the size of his manhood.

And this being Benson, I'm sure it was due to it's inadequacy.

Sorry, everyone.

[Jim]

Oh, Hope Kendall. I had forgotten about her. One thing that came to my mind when you mentioned her, wasn't her swingin both ways, but her exam of Bond's prostate. And Benson mentioning that "She wasn't very gentle with that exam, either." How's that for kink?

All fingers and thumbs, isn't he?