28 replies to this topic

[CBeaver]

I'm watching Thunderball on the AMC marathon running right now, and this has bugged the hell out of me. I've watched this movie three times now this week, but I still can't figure out who the real hero is here. At the end of the film some guy comes in, frees Domino, stops the bomb, helps them escape... And then when the raft drops down they just leave the poor guy there in the middle of the ocean without even asking his name! Who is it, and why the heck did they leave him there to die? It's like the filmmakers just forgot he was there...

[Q's step brother]

its a very rushed ending, which is strange as the rest of the film is so slow.

A suppose Mr. Bond must be the hero - and as for that bloke who drowned....the sharks must have enjoyed him.

[SirHilary]

I believe you are talking about Kutze, a Eastern-Bloc nuclear scientist helping Largo with the bombs. I think he may be being blackmailed or something by SPECTRE, as he says, "life was so much easier in my Warsaw laboratoty", when Largo orders him to take care of the bombs. He regrets what he has done to help Largo and repents by helping Domino. He's a minor villian in a sense, though Bond does help save him by by giving him a float to help him swim (if I recall correctly).

Edited by SirHilary, 14 January 2006 - 09:50 PM.

[Napoleon Solo]

I believe you are talking about Kutze, a Eastern-Bloc nuclear scientist helping Largo with the bombs. I think he may be being blackmailed or something by SPECTRE, as he says, "life was so much easier in my Warsaw laboratoty", when Largo orders him to take care of the bombs. He regrets what he has done to help Largo and repents by helping Domino. He's a minor villian in a sense, though Bond does help save him by by giving him a float to help him swim (if I recall correctly).

You are correct.

As Bond hands him the lifesaver, Kutze says, "I never learned to swim."

"Never too late to learn," Bond replies.

I'd like to think they picked Kutze up by ship, but we don't see whether they do or not.

[CBeaver]

Ahhh. Thank you, Hilary.

Though it still strikes me as weird; the guy specifically says he couldn't swim but Bond leaves him there in the ocean with naught but a float... :\

[Turn]

It's likely they picked up Kutze for questioning as Blofeld was still at large and he would have been a good source for the authorities.

[crheath]

I read somewhere that Peter Hunt was overwhelmed with editing the film all by himself. This led to many errors like this one.
I also didn't care for the scene where Bond leaves Count Lippe locked in the steam machine. The very next scene he's fine, with no explanation of whether he got out OK or not.

[RJJB]

I don't consider any lack of revelation the fate of Kutze to be an error. He was a minor character and we assume he survived since Bond gave him the life preserver. If the movie was going to tie off on every loose end, things would get pretty boring. We never get to see Bond and Domino get reeled into the plane, but it doesn't matter. We don't see any government agency searching the wreckage of the Disco Volante for the unexploded bomb.

As to Count Lippe at Shrublands, he was probably found and let out, much the same way Bond was discovered on the out of control traction machine. It's not that vital to see what happened.

[CBeaver]

Perhaps, but I don't think it's asking that much to have three people climb into the raft if three people jumped in the water. You don't even see him in the long-shots as they climb in or get yanked into the air by the plane; for all intents and purposes the man simply ceased to exist once he jumped overboard.

[RJJB]

Sorry, but I have no desire to see James Bond sharing a liferaft with a beautiful woman like Domino and an Eastern scientist. The guy served his purpose in the movie and his fate is left to the assumption that he survived the explosion of the DV, thanks to Bond giving him the preserver. No doubt he was picked up by the Coast Guard. Again, it's a small loose end that doesn't warrant any attention.

Aren't the movies supposed to end focused on Bond? It's always the way. How long did they seach for Bond and Pussy Galore at the end of Goldfinger? How did Tiger Tanaka fare in the escape from Blofeld's volcano? He was more important that Kutze, but we learn nothing about his final escape. The movie is about James Bond. Pay too much attention to peripheral characters and you wind up with a movie that is way too boring. Pay even more attention to peripheral characters and you introduce silly additions like Sherrif Pepper in Live and Let Die.

Edited by RJJB, 15 January 2006 - 12:37 AM.

[Double-Oh Agent]

It doesn't matter that much to me that we don't see what happens to Ladislav Kutze. My thought is that he uses the life preserver to swim toward the raft that was abandoned by Bond and Domino whereupon he is later rescued and arrested by the authorities.

[Scottlee]

I've considered the Kutze 'disappearance' before, and I have to conclude much the same as the others ; it's not important and so what?

To add something new, may I point out the nearby presence of the rock formations? You know, the ones like on which Largo's boat blew up on. Even a lame duck swimmer like Kutze could have paddled 60 yards on a dingy to reah some of those rocks until the rescue party arrived to check out Largo's wreck.

Some of the older Bond films are much better for letting you just figure things out for yourself.

[Hotwinds]

I would not worry about a man who was very close to helping Largo blow up many innocent people if he didnt get his money.
He did get a life preserver and he could have doggy paddled to the raft.
He was given a fair deal. You cant make him out to be a hero in my opinion.
Had Bond not given them all those problems, Kutze would have gone along with the mission and collected his money in the amount of " how many Nobel Prize's?"

[MarcAngeDraco]

I always rather enjoyed the way they left him stranded... but that's me...

[Qwerty]

Here is the CBn S-Branch page on Ladislav Kutze: http://s-branch.net/.../ladislav-kutze

[stamper]

I read somewhere that Peter Hunt was overwhelmed with editing the film all by himself.  This led to many errors like this one.
I also didn't care for the scene where Bond leaves Count Lippe locked in the steam machine.  The very next scene he's fine, with no explanation of whether he got out OK or not.

You are questioning here the whole point of Peter Hunt editing, get rid of the dead, boring stuff.
There is no error with the scientist at the end, Bond takes care of him and we don't need to linger on him any longer, as well as we don't care how Lippe gets out, we can figure he did (unless we have no brain or imagination). Your way of thinking, we would have had to stuck more scenes in the movie just to pander to the lowest common denominator, and made the movie less efficient than it is.

[Scottlee]

It's never bothered me that we never see Lippe get rescued. It's obvious what happened ; he shouted for help, suffered a bit of pain whilst he waited, and then got rescued. Do we need this pointing out to us? No. We're not dim.

[Napoleon Solo]

[quote name='MarcAngeDraco' date='15 January 2006 - 02:12']I always rather enjoyed the way they left him stranded...

Edited by Napoleon Solo, 15 January 2006 - 07:50 PM.

[spynovelfan]

Kutze doesn't bother me. Lippe does very very slightly. Not because it's not obvious what happened - someone heard him and let him out - but because Bond can't really know that will happen. He waslucky to survive himself. It just seems too casual to possibly murder him - I'd have liked just a shot where he walks past reception and says 'Thought I heard something down the hall' or something.

But it's not a biggie. In a film about an evil organisation holding the world to ransom with atomic warheads, it seems a bit daft to start complaining that such a scene is implausible.

[Harmsway]

Kutze doesn't bother me. Lippe does very very slightly. Not because it's not obvious what happened - someone heard him and let him out - but because Bond can't really know that will happen. He waslucky to survive himself. It just seems too casual to possibly murder him - I'd have liked just a shot where he walks past reception and says 'Thought I heard something down the hall' or something.

I'm trying to remember (I haven't read THUNDERBALL in a long time, and I don't have my copy handy), but in the book, doesn't Bond just leave him in the steam chamber and Lippe gets severely burned?

[spynovelfan]

I'd have to refer to it, but in the novel the whole episode is given a lot more space, and Bond is essentially off duty and indulging in personal revenge. The psychology of what he is doing is gone into - it's not just leaving him there casually, smiling as he closes the door. I think. Bond plans the move, observing the rota of the staff, and imitates one of them while he's in there. But hey, it's a two hour movie - and it already feels over-long. It doesn't need to be any longer - but one line of dialogue from Bond might have helped.

[Simon]

If he didn't get in the raft, it was but a short distance to the rocks that the DV crashed into anyway. No swimming involved at all.

[stamper]

I'd have liked just a shot where he walks past reception and says 'Thought I heard something down the hall' or something.

woah hahaha !!!! It's Moore's Bond !!! Lean, but not so mean !

I myself am happy Lippe can go die. He almost killed Sean, I would never expect 007 to have any qualms about that guy future.

[spynovelfan]

I'd have liked just a shot where he walks past reception and says 'Thought I heard something down the hall' or something.

woah hahaha !!!! It's Moore's Bond !!! Lean, but not so mean !

I myself am happy Lippe can go die. He almost killed Sean, I would never expect 007 to have any qualms about that guy future.

Don't really agree. It's much more Mooreish to have Bond kill someone totally casually as if it were a joke. Does Connery look pleased with himself and unaware of the consequences when he kills Professor Dent? One of the reasons I don't like it is because it's precisely that total disregard for anyone coming to harm as long as it raises a smile that characterised Moore's tenure as Bond. In Connery's films, killing someone mattered.

[Loomis]

I'd have liked just a shot where he walks past reception and says 'Thought I heard something down the hall' or something.

woah hahaha !!!! It's Moore's Bond !!! Lean, but not so mean !

I myself am happy Lippe can go die. He almost killed Sean, I would never expect 007 to have any qualms about that guy future.

Don't really agree. It's much more Mooreish to have Bond kill someone totally casually as if it were a joke. Does Connery look pleased with himself and unaware of the consequences when he kills Professor Dent? One of the reasons I don't like it is because it's precisely that total disregard for anyone coming to harm as long as it raises a smile that characterised Moore's tenure as Bond. In Connery's films, killing someone mattered.

It's funny, but I find the "total disregard" for himself and others displayed by Moore's Bond quite chilling, along with his habit of treating the demise of each of his victims as a sidesplittingly hilarious joke ("All those feathers and he still can't fly"). How is this different to Hannibal Lecter quipping about greeting a census taker with some fava beans and a nice chianti? Now, perhaps this isn't exactly how Moore and the filmmakers intended us to take the character, but what would we call someone like that in real life? An ice-cold psychopath?

I actually think Moore, on occasion, got closer to Fleming's Bond than just about anyone else. See, for instance, THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN.

[Harmsway]

I actually think Moore, on occasion, got closer to Fleming's Bond than just about anyone else. See, for instance, THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN.

I know you love Moore in that movie, and it is Moore's most Flemingesque hour, but I don't know that it beats early Connery as Flemingesque (or LICENCE TO KILL Dalton, for that matter). And still, just in how he walked about, I couldn't imagine him as Fleming's 007. In actions, he may have been very Flemingesque in that film, but in overall personality and portrayal, I don't think he nailed it.

[Double-Oh-Zero]

I'd have to refer to it, but in the novel the whole episode is given a lot more space, and Bond is essentially off duty and indulging in personal revenge. The psychology of what he is doing is gone into - it's not just leaving him there casually, smiling as he closes the door. I think. Bond plans the move, observing the rota of the staff, and imitates one of them while he's in there. But hey, it's a two hour movie - and it already feels over-long. It doesn't need to be any longer - but one line of dialogue from Bond might have helped.

Yep.

Bond had listened to this routine for a whole week, noting the men that cut minutes off their duty and got off early to lunch, noting the ones that stayed to do their full share of the last chores. Now, from the open door of the empty shower room, he called back, in Sam's deep voice, "Okay, Mr. Beresford," and waited for the crisp squeak of the gym shoes on the linoleum.

...Bond closed the door firmly behind him and walked quickly down the corridor to put on his clothes and get out. Behind him, deeply muffled, came the first shout for help. Bond closed his ears. There was nothing that a painful week in hospital and plenty of Gentian Violet or Tannic Acid jelly wouldn't cure. But it did cross his mind that a man who could offer a bribe of fifty thousand pounds must be either very rich or have some very urgent reason for needing freedom of movement. It was surely too much to pay just for avoidance of pain.

Agree about it being somewhat of an annoyance in the film, though. Always bothered me that Bond cranks the heat up to full, not acknowledging (as he did in the novel) that he might kill the poor bastard. And he didn't even try to disguise his voice.

Never was too bothered about Kutze, though. Got what he deserved, frankly.

[crheath]

It's never bothered me that we never see Lippe get rescued. It's obvious what happened ; he shouted for help, suffered a bit of pain whilst he waited, and then got rescued. Do we need this pointing out to us? No. We're not dim.

I don't really care how he got out. I just didn't care for the editing. It was enjoyable to see Bond get his revenge. But just a couple of seconds later, we see Lippe on the phone going about his business with no burns or anything.

The novel is much more satisfying because Lippe is taken to the hospital with 2nd degree burns.

Edited by crheath, 16 January 2006 - 10:20 PM.

[Scottlee]

I agree that a couple of visible burn marks on his hands and neck might have been a nice touch for the scene where he's on the phone.