36 replies to this topic

[Harmsway]

I went and saw Hero today. I had been expecting a cool martial arts flick in the vein of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. The previews certainly portrayed it that way, and so I went to have a good time.

I had no idea how good this movie was going to be. This movie is perfect. Every fight scene is a work of art so beautiful, I had to catch my breath. This film is the definitive martial arts film, and for me, it's my favorite film that has been released in my lifetime. Words really can't express how good this film is.

GO SEE IT. NOW.

[License To Kill]

Harmsway, that's quite an interesting view.

I, on the other hand, hate martial arts films, and this was the worst out of all of them.

[Harmsway]

I, on the other hand, hate martial arts films, and this was the worst out of all of them.

WHAT?! Oh well. I guess some people just don't like stuff like this... but I, for one, loved it. I find your reaction surprising, because I would've thought that Hero was the most accessible martial arts film for the western mindset.

[License To Kill]

I wanna ask you a question..

When watching it, (I really wasn't playing too much attention) but how did Snow, Broken Sword, and whoever the third one was die so many times, or at least get stabbed/maimed so many times and live?

[Harmsway]

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Well, I'm assuming you're talking about the third variation on the story. Nameless was able to do a crazy sword manuever whereby no organs were harmed and recovery was entirely possible - so that takes care of Snow. Broken Sword was actually not mortally wounded by Snow in their fight - just hurt enough to incapacitate him.

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[License To Kill]

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Well, I'm assuming you're talking about the third variation on the story. Nameless was able to do a crazy sword manuever whereby no organs were harmed and recovery was entirely possible - so that takes care of Snow. Broken Sword was actually not mortally wounded by Snow in their fight - just hurt enough to incapacitate him.

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but why was it necessary for 3 variations?

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[Harmsway]

/spoiler.gif

Well, I'm assuming you're talking about the third variation on the story. Nameless was able to do a crazy sword manuever whereby no organs were harmed and recovery was entirely possible - so that takes care of Snow. Broken Sword was actually not mortally wounded by Snow in their fight - just hurt enough to incapacitate him.

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but why was it necessary for 3 variations?

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Because otherwise there wouldn't be a movie. It allows for the story to be revealed slowly and for some added twists. The movie is essentially very simple, but is made complex by the fact that the story changes depending on whose point of view. I love that device, but I could understand why some people would find it unnecessary. It's definitely a very Asian technique.

[Blofeld's Cat]

There must be something to Harm's praise. It gets an 8.2/10 on IMDb.

Interesting bit of trivia noted on that page....

Miramax, the distributor, apparently cut out 20 minutes from the movie because they found that part to be "too Asian and confusing" for western audiences. Then-Miramax honcho Harvey Weinstein made a deal with Quentin Tarantino that he'd release the film uncut if Tarantino would allow a "Quentin Tarantino Presents" tag at the beginning of the film. Tarantino agreed.

[Harmsway]

There must be something to Harm's praise. It gets an 8.2/10 on IMDb.

Interesting bit of trivia noted on that page....

Miramax, the distributor, apparently cut out 20 minutes from the movie because they found that part to be "too Asian and confusing" for western audiences. Then-Miramax honcho Harvey Weinstein made a deal with Quentin Tarantino that he'd release the film uncut if Tarantino would allow a "Quentin Tarantino Presents" tag at the beginning of the film. Tarantino agreed.

Thank god for that. The film is a masterpiece as it is... losing 20 minutes of it would be a travesty.

[Blofeld's Cat]

I, on the other hand, hate martial arts films, and this was the worst out of all of them.

You hate these sorts of movies, yet you went and saw this anyway?

I didn't know too much about this movie until this thread, but I do know the DVD has being out here for awhile now - it was made in 2002.

May just have to have a look at it now, thanks to Harm.

[Tarl_Cabot]

I thought it was one of the most beautiful looking films I've ever seen. I liked the film but I was a little dissapointed by the fact that it was ripping off 'Crouching Tiger' quite a bit; the music, the flying...it wasn't original but it was awesome nonetheless.The action and photography is actually better than CT,HD but it just was not original and that's an artistic liability. Still, the water fight was pure magic...I have to see it again for sure. I had a manic cougher next to me and a sleeping,snoring jerk (!) behind me so my senses were distracted by them. Also, trying to read the dialogue and taking in the marvelous visuals is difficult(easier on small screen for me) so I will see this again to enjoy it. Great film. I still consider Crouching Tiger the definitive Chinese Martial arts art film but this one is a strong #2.

Btw, Harmsway, I suggest you rent the Samurai trilogy if you haven't yet seen those.The best trilogy I've ever seen...

[Qwerty]

Saw a review of this in the paper, got 2 out of 4 stars.

Actually though, I haven't seen any advertising at all for this movie. It's kind of surprising.

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was mentioned a bit too in the review, Tarl.

Edited by Qwerty, 30 August 2004 - 04:21 AM.

[Tarl_Cabot]

It's great to see Jet Li in a quality film for a change. Those Joel Silver hip hop kung fu films were wrecking his career.

[Harmsway]

I thought it was one of the most beautiful looking films I've ever seen. I liked the film but I was a little dissapointed by the fact that it was ripping off 'Crouching Tiger' quite a bit; the music, the flying...it wasn't original but it was awesome nonetheless.The action and photography is actually better than CT,HD but it just was not original and that's an artistic liability. Still, the water fight was pure magic...I have to see it again for sure. I had a manic cougher next to me and a sleeping,snoring jerk (!) behind me so my senses were distracted by them. Also, trying to read the dialogue and taking in the marvelous visuals is difficult(easier on small screen for me) so I will see this again to enjoy it. Great film. I still consider Crouching Tiger the definitive Chinese Martial arts art film but this one is a strong #2.

Btw, Harmsway, I suggest you rent the Samurai trilogy if you haven't yet seen those.The best trilogy I've ever seen...

Well, the flying wasn't a rip off of Crouching Tiger - it's a whole genre of martial arts that existed for quite some time before Crouching Tiger. CT,HD is just another entry in that genre and I consider Hero equally as artistic in its martial arts style (besides, Hero improves on the flying style when compared to Crouching Tiger anyway). The music was done by the same composer for both movies, explaining the similarity.

And I have wanted to see the Samurai trilogy for quite some time now. I guess it's about time I got my hands on it!

[Tarl_Cabot]

I suppose you're right. I know the flying comes from chinese mythology but i guess that having seen it done in 'Crouching tiger' it seemed like, well, like a Bond film...something already seen before...Still, the action is great and the Kung Fu is much better than CT,HD as the actors are all very accomplished martial artists...I will own the DVD. It's an amazing film! If I didn't love Kill Bill vol 2, Spiderman 2 and Bourne Supremecy I'd say it was the best film of the year...it's in my top five now so far...

Here's Roger Ebert's review:


BY ROGER EBERT

Zhang Yimou's "Hero" is beautiful and beguiling, a martial arts extravaganza defining the styles and lives of its fighters within Chinese tradition. It is also, like "Rashomon," a mystery told from more than one point of view; we hear several stories which all could be true, or false. The movie opens, like many folk legends, with a storyteller before the throne of an imperious ruler, counting on his wits to protect his life.



The storyteller is Nameless (Jet Li), who comes to the imperial court of the dreaded King of Qin (Chen Dao Ming). Qin dreams of uniting all of China's warring kingdoms under his rule; his plans to end war, the opening narration observes, "were soaked in the blood of his enemies." Three assassins have vowed to kill him: Broken Sword (Tony Leung), Flying Snow (Maggie Cheung) and Long Sky (Donnie Yen). Now comes Nameless to claim he has killed all three of them. He wishes to become the king's valued retainer, and collect a reward.

These opening scenes are visually spectacular. Nameless approaches the royal residence past ranks of countless thousands of soldiers, passes through entrance rooms of great depth and richness, and is allowed to kneel within 100 paces of the king -- which is closer than anyone has been allowed to approach in many years. One pace closer, he is warned, and he will be killed.

The king asks to hear his stories. Nameless explains that his martial arts skill by itself was not enough to defeat such formidable enemies. Instead, he used psychological methods to discover their weak points. The style of Broken Sword's swordplay, for example, was betrayed by the style of his calligraphy. Sword and Snow were lovers, so jealousy could be used. Perhaps Snow could discover Sword making love with the beautiful Moon (Zhang Ziyi), which would sunder their alliance. As Nameless talks, there are flashbacks to the scenes he describes.

"Hero" is the most expensive film in Chinese history, a frank attempt to surpass Ang Lee's "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon," and the sets, costumes and special effects are of astonishing beauty. Consider a scene where Nameless and Long Sky fight to the death during a torrential rainstorm that pierces the ceiling of the room where they fight, while a blind musician plucks his harp in counterpoint; they pause sometimes to urge the musician to continue. At one point Nameless launches himself across the room in slow motion, through a cloud of suspended raindrops which scatter like jewels at his passage.

Consider another scene where Nameless and Broken Sword do battle while floating above the vast mirror of a lake, sometimes drawing patterns in the water with their blades; Zhang even seems to film them from below the surface of the water they're walking on. Or another scene that takes place in a rain of bright red leaves. Or another where an imperturbable master of calligraphy continues his instruction, and his students sit obediently around him, while a rain of arrows slices through the roof of their school. Never have more archers and more arrows been seen in a movie; although I knew special effects were being used, I was not particularly aware of them.

These stories are of great fascination to the King of Qin, and after each is finished he allows Nameless to approach the throne a little closer, until finally only 10 paces separate them. But the king has not survived years of assassination attempts by being a fool, and after the stories, he speaks, providing his own interpretation of what must have happened. His version is also visualized by Zhang, creating the "Rashomon" effect.

We can easily imagine the king being correct in his rewriting of Nameless' stories, and we wonder if Nameless has invented them as a strategy to get closer to the throne and murder the king himself. This idea occurs not only to us but, obviously, to the king, who may have a strategic reason in permitting Nameless to come so close. The two are playing an elaborate game of truth or consequences, in which it hardly matters what really happened to Sword, Sky and Snow, because everything has finally come down to these two men in the throne room.

A film like "Hero" demonstrates how the martial arts genre transcends action and violence and moves into poetry, ballet and philosophy. It is violent only incidentally. What matters is not the manner of death, but the manner of dying: In a society that takes a Zen approach to swordplay and death, one might win by losing. There is an ancient martial arts strategy in which one lures the opponent closer to throw him off balance, and yields to his thrusts in order to mislead him. This strategy works with words as well as swords. One might even defeat an opponent by dying -- not in the act of killing him, but as a move in a larger game.

Every genre has its cadre of moviegoers who think they dislike it. Sometimes a movie comes along that they should see nevertheless. If you've avoided every superhero movie, for example, "Spider-Man 2" is the one to see. If you dislike martial arts even after "Crouching Tiger," then "Hero" may be the right film. Is it better than "Crouching Tiger"? Perhaps not, because the "Rashomon" structure undermines the resonance and even the reality of the emotional relationships. But Zhang Yimou, whose "Raise the Red Lantern" was so beautiful, once again creates a visual poem of extraordinary beauty.

[Tarl_Cabot]

Samurai trilogy is fantastic!!! Go see it ASAP!! You will love it!!!!

[Harmsway]

If I didn't love Kill Bill vol 2, Spiderman 2 and Bourne Supremecy I'd say it was the best film of the year...it's in my top five now so far...

For me, it's in the #1 slot! I personally also loved Napoleon Dynamite, Kill Bill Vol. 2, Spider-man 2, and The Bourne Supremacy, but none have the magic that Hero has (maybe it's just the fact that the visuals are so stunning, every other movie seems a bit duller). When you see beautiful choreography like Hero has, even other action sequence just really isn't as cool anymore.

What's great about Hero is that every single action sequence is awesome. They're all unique and visually gorgeous, like paintings. Considering this is a movie made up of action sequences, that's an incredible achievement. They're so good, I can't pick a favorite!!

And on another note, I will get the Samurai trilogy as soon as I can.

[Qwerty]

It's great to see Jet Li in a quality film for a change. Those Joel Silver hip hop kung fu films were wrecking his career.

I've heard he is better in this film. I'll agree with your point there Tarl, looking back at his recent films.

[Loomis]

Trivia note: Gordon Liu's character in KILL BILL VOL 1, Johnny Mo (head general of the Crazy 88), was named in tribute to Zhang Yimou, director of HERO.

As for HERO.... I've been reading about this film for well over two years and can't wait to see it - but it still hasn't opened in the UK (we get it next month, I think).

[Harmsway]

As for HERO.... I've been reading about this film for well over two years and can't wait to see it - but it still hasn't opened in the UK (we get it next month, I think).

I think you'll really enjoy it, Loomis.

[Loomis]

Hope so. Particularly interested to see how it's shot, since cinematographer Christopher Doyle is a, well, hero of mine.

[doublenoughtspy]

Best ever? Hardly.

Five Deadly Venoms. It's called "The Citizen Kane of Kung Fu Films" for a reason.

And one of the Venoms is played by Philip Kwok, who would later play Gen. Chang in TND.

[Harmsway]

Best ever? Hardly.

Five Deadly Venoms. It's called "The Citizen Kane of Kung Fu Films" for a reason.

I saw Five Deadly Venoms. Nothing that great. But I'm not particularly a big fan of 70s Kung Fu to begin with...

[CommanderBond]

I dont really care for the film. Its too unrealistic and the fighting scenes arent that awesome. Most of the 70's and 60's kung fu flicks are way better. Like Shogun Assassin, the 5 deadly venoms and Born Invincible could easily top that film.

[Loomis]

Shogun Assassin

Picked that one up in a DVD sale recently and have yet to get round to watching it - any good?

[License To Kill]

I, on the other hand, hate martial arts films, and this was the worst out of all of them.

You hate these sorts of movies, yet you went and saw this anyway?

I didn't know too much about this movie until this thread, but I do know the DVD has being out here for awhile now - it was made in 2002.

May just have to have a look at it now, thanks to Harm.

Hate it, doesnt mean I won't see it. You gotta try to broaden your horizons.

[Harmsway]

Its too unrealistic and the fighting scenes arent that awesome.

I prefer my fight scenes unrealistic - more like a ballet than a fight scene. While there certainly is a place for realistic action (heck, movies like The Bourne Supremacy would be nothing without it), nothing compares to the beauty of those flying swordfights in Hero. They are incredibly unrealistic, but I generally don't go to these movies for realism anyway.

[Qwerty]

Trivia note: Gordon Liu's character in KILL BILL VOL 1, Johnny Mo (head general of the Crazy 88), was named in tribute to Zhang Yimou, director of HERO.

Cool, just watched that in fact.

Never knew that.

[Loomis]

Shogun Assassin

Picked that one up in a DVD sale recently and have yet to get round to watching it - any good?

Well, I saw it and.... I wish I'd saved my five quid. It's just garbage, although I'm sure its cult appeal will grow and grow thanks to KILL BILL VOL 2. What on earth was Leonard Maltin doing giving it ***1/2 (the second highest rating) in his "Movie & Video Guide"? He calls it "a coherent film brilliant edited" - is he taking the rip? It's nothing of the sort. Some nice cinematography here and there, and a couple of half-decent scenes, but otherwise one of the most stupid and boring films I've ever sat through. A must-avoid.

[Qwerty]

I dont really care for the film. Its too unrealistic and the fighting scenes arent that awesome. Most of the 70's and 60's kung fu flicks are way better. Like Shogun Assassin, the 5 deadly venoms and Born Invincible could easily top that film.

That's what I've been hearing with all of the comparing. Can't be fantastic.